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Aaaarmy Training, Sir!
- Thread starter ShiVvV
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 25,344
Took a quick glance at save. I'll come with a bit of a plan tonight or tomorrow, but initial thoughts.
First, not sure why are warrior is heading North when he should be spawnbusting south for new city. Scout can take care of all our nearby scouting needs and then probably bust in the North somewhere.
Worker finishes mine on gems and then moves to forest 1NW to chop, which should finish a turn before or as settler finishes. OF into 2nd worker. Chop there allows settler to settle red dot one turn sooner.
I'll move warrior back down south before he gets killed.
nvm..let me put up a plan:
TW>AH
worker - mines gems (3t)>moves to forest 1NW>pre chops til TW > roads tile > moves to forest 1E of city>roads>moves to cow to road for insta-trade route
Settler>warrior
Move warrior back down south
Scout moves E towards those cows to unfog area > then finds Biz > then spawnbusts up N
Switch to Slavery when Settler pops
(I'll play to the turn before Settler settles)
First, not sure why are warrior is heading North when he should be spawnbusting south for new city. Scout can take care of all our nearby scouting needs and then probably bust in the North somewhere.
Worker finishes mine on gems and then moves to forest 1NW to chop, which should finish a turn before or as settler finishes. OF into 2nd worker. Chop there allows settler to settle red dot one turn sooner.
I'll move warrior back down south before he gets killed.
nvm..let me put up a plan:
TW>AH
worker - mines gems (3t)>moves to forest 1NW>pre chops til TW > roads tile > moves to forest 1E of city>roads>moves to cow to road for insta-trade route
Settler>warrior
Move warrior back down south
Scout moves E towards those cows to unfog area > then finds Biz > then spawnbusts up N
Switch to Slavery when Settler pops
(I'll play to the turn before Settler settles)
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 25,344
Wasn't sure if the TW would time right for all that but maybe it will work out. I could move to forest, pre-chop while TW finishes (which should be less than 6 turns), then road the tile, move to forest next to city and road, then move to cow and road. (I'm doing that in my head)
I don't think we need to save all forest right now though - we can chop a couple early, but maybe chop ones that might grow back later. won't grow on roads.
I guess we can whip a worker a bit later
I don't think we need to save all forest right now though - we can chop a couple early, but maybe chop ones that might grow back later. won't grow on roads.
I guess we can whip a worker a bit later
Packers5280
Deity
TW>AH sounds good. I don't know if we can get the marble before Izzy does. It's close to her and she has a more favorable spot closer to her with the corn to feed the marble. Kinda crazy how Izzy isn't religious, and loses a religion go Churchy.
I agree on using some forests. Chopping settlers would be good if we want some spots. There's not too many close to us, but we can get some sites.
I agree on using some forests. Chopping settlers would be good if we want some spots. There's not too many close to us, but we can get some sites.
Should we go ahead and revolt the turn after settler is produced?
The only thing I hate about our situation is having to use these pre-math chops. Isn't like we're saving them for wonders or necessarily an army at this time though. I wouldn't think we'd need to chop more than these two capitol forests with current situation.
It's probably too late to propose an alternate plan but I'll just put down my thoughts so they can be appropriately shot down
What if:
Finish gems and move worker 1NW to forest (4 turns).
We'd have 36+27=63 production into settler.
Revolt on T5; worker puts in 1st turn of chop.
T6) 2pop whip the settler on T6 for 23 OF into a 2nd worker. Working corn gives 23+6 production into 2nd worker this turn.
T7) Settler made. Chop completes. 20+23+6=49 production into worker.
T8) Could switch to warrior to grow back onto gems (4 turns to grow I think) then finish worker.
Problem here is obviously losing six ! whole turns of working gems--kinda steep. We save a forest and have settler out a turn earlier though.
Quip inspired me to attach a dot-map. I realize it's probably much the overstretch but is something we "could" do to block Izzy. With lack of commerce sites it would probably wreck us but it helps me to kinda see where our eventual borders might be wrt Izzy.
I can certainly see the need for more spawnbusters. Barbs will be giving us hell soon in the south and north. Sure hope we got horses.
Zara's pipedream dotmap
View attachment 381324
pigswill
fly (one day)
I'm wondering about settling red dot 1S (i.e. 1E of rice) for coastal access.
lurker comment:
Why not settle the 2nd city either 1W in order to save a grass tile or on coast since you're cre and you don't even have AH yet so the cows could be slightly delayed?
Coastal access could be useful for GLH but it seems most of your expansion is going to be inland. You could get IC trade from the island maybe earlier by settling on coast. Then again if you decide to go for a rush, you might not want to spend tons of hammers on wonders or island cities that won't be able to contribute to army build-up effectively.
Why not settle the 2nd city either 1W in order to save a grass tile or on coast since you're cre and you don't even have AH yet so the cows could be slightly delayed?
Coastal access could be useful for GLH but it seems most of your expansion is going to be inland. You could get IC trade from the island maybe earlier by settling on coast. Then again if you decide to go for a rush, you might not want to spend tons of hammers on wonders or island cities that won't be able to contribute to army build-up effectively.
I think moving red dot coastal hurts our ability to settle westward. We miss out on an instant trade route and the ability to improve those cows right away. That and a coastal would only be useful for GLH, and GLH doesn't seem all that appealing when we've only got 2 decent coastal sites (assuming a red dot move) and an island.
Delaying AH seems kinda risky risky because of lack of food and no strat resources yet. If we don't have horses we may have to consider going archery. We'd be running on warriors until turn ~60 if we continue with alpha plan and don't find horses.
Delaying AH seems kinda risky risky because of lack of food and no strat resources yet. If we don't have horses we may have to consider going archery. We'd be running on warriors until turn ~60 if we continue with alpha plan and don't find horses.
shpeka
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2009
- Messages
- 184
I would do that. We don't really get anything by settling inland if we do get a city on top of the sugar anyway.
I would go TW, road towards marble spot and get that blocking city up. We do have the commerce to support it. And we do have Organized. Next spot should be gold or double gold to further alleviate the economic situation. It would be nice setting up a cottage city on the floodplains but if this gets to be our city No.4 it might already be too late for cottages.
I would not go for a rush vs Izzy - we can easily get to friendly with her, and she will probably provide free missionaries (and probably the AP religion) for us. Plus - we've got too much land anyway.
On this point - bleh at low sea level... fractal often gives too much room even on high sea level.
I'm starting to become convinced coastal settle with 2nd city might be way to go also. Could settle either: 1E of rice as mentioned before (can work gems, cow, rice) or settle 2E of rice (gives up cow to presumed 3rd city site on sugar).
I like shpeka's thoughts regarding expansion and diplomacy. Izzy will definitely be easier to placate with religion and hopefully it will be AP religion.
Beating Izzy to the site between the corn&marble could secure us a good chunk of the continent. The 'twin diagonal peaks' in the SW and our first border pop would seal nicely. The issue is getting there in time.
Getting marble/corn site would buy us some time to explore further towards south to determine how to settle the gold/floodplains area (i.e., find the food).
@shpeka-about the map. I just didn't want to end up with 3-4 oversize islands with possibility of ISO. Won't lie, this map, other than the start, isn't in my top 10 let's say and looks difficult. But, that's what you guys are for!
I like shpeka's thoughts regarding expansion and diplomacy. Izzy will definitely be easier to placate with religion and hopefully it will be AP religion.
Beating Izzy to the site between the corn&marble could secure us a good chunk of the continent. The 'twin diagonal peaks' in the SW and our first border pop would seal nicely. The issue is getting there in time.
Getting marble/corn site would buy us some time to explore further towards south to determine how to settle the gold/floodplains area (i.e., find the food).
@shpeka-about the map. I just didn't want to end up with 3-4 oversize islands with possibility of ISO. Won't lie, this map, other than the start, isn't in my top 10 let's say and looks difficult. But, that's what you guys are for!
Izuul
Level 86
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2012
- Messages
- 6,941
I think coastal cities are really overrated. I would only give a non-seafood coastal site preference over non-coastal if a) I have the GLH or b) an ISO start or something that dictates early Astro and overseas trade routes.
Neither of those are true here so i would settle whichever site gives the most immediate benefit. We have a choice b/t a 4F2H cow tile and instant city connection or 2nd ring dry rice and 3 more worker turns committed to connecting the city. I would take the cow site without question. 1S would be a little better than 1SE, but i still don't really see the benefits of the coastal city. When would that begin to pay off? 150T from now?
Also, i disagree that delaying AH is a mistake. TW > AH will still give AH in no more than 11T, and possibly 10T due to the great commerce here. The settler won't be finished for 9T and then it's going to take 1T of movement before the city can be settled. Worst case scenario there's a 1T delay on improving cows.
A 2nd settler could also be whipped in time to grab horses just in case some pop up and we miss them with our 2nd city. Barbs don't enter culture on Immortal until 2200ish BC which is roughly T45. We also have the option of teching Archery very quickly as a fail safe.
IMO the marble site is way too far away to defend right now with the jungle in between. 19 worker turns just to road to it...
Neither of those are true here so i would settle whichever site gives the most immediate benefit. We have a choice b/t a 4F2H cow tile and instant city connection or 2nd ring dry rice and 3 more worker turns committed to connecting the city. I would take the cow site without question. 1S would be a little better than 1SE, but i still don't really see the benefits of the coastal city. When would that begin to pay off? 150T from now?
Also, i disagree that delaying AH is a mistake. TW > AH will still give AH in no more than 11T, and possibly 10T due to the great commerce here. The settler won't be finished for 9T and then it's going to take 1T of movement before the city can be settled. Worst case scenario there's a 1T delay on improving cows.
A 2nd settler could also be whipped in time to grab horses just in case some pop up and we miss them with our 2nd city. Barbs don't enter culture on Immortal until 2200ish BC which is roughly T45. We also have the option of teching Archery very quickly as a fail safe.
IMO the marble site is way too far away to defend right now with the jungle in between. 19 worker turns just to road to it...
So I did some basic math today, and without having the game on me, I'm hoping that I get all of this correct. :/
If we settle on the red dot, we would get immediate access to the cows and rice. Rice can be farmed right away, and then when AH comes in we can put a pasture on the cows. With those two tiles improved and working the gems, we would still be at +2F which would give us the ability to work a specialist in the city, or another hill.
If we settle 1E of the rice, we lose instant access to the cows and would have to wait for a border pop before being able to improve them. Granted, since we are CRE that would only be 5 turns, and after farming the rice, AH should pretty much be in. We would lose 3 wet grass, 1 dry grass + 1 lake to possibly work for a gain of 1 grass hill, 1 dry grass and 3 coast. Those 3 coasts aren't workable until we have fishing, we wouldn't get trade routes until Sailing and then extra food only once a LH was built. Is it really more beneficial to settle a coastal city this early as opposed to one that can grow faster? Plus, it doesn't look like we will be prioritizing Fishing or Sailing anytime soon, the only way we would possibly get them would be trades once Alpha is in, and that's turns away.
Now that I think about it a bit more, we aren't trading too much by settling 1E, except for the ability to set up a bunch of cottages that both this town and our capital could work. I'm unsure how focused on cottaging we are at the moment, but that really is the only thing I can see as a downfall for settling that way. (Please let me know if I'm over analyzing this, trying to be as helpful as possible while still picking up learning things).
In regards to our 3rd city, considering how close Izzy is to us, it looks like we should snag some land from her before she boxes us in. If she's got her eye on that site, just like us, than I'm unsure if we will be able to beat her there in time. Plus, it's a bit of a ways away, and would put a number on our econ, yes?
I'm in agreement that we still should go TW>AH and then see what happens. Here's to hoping that we find horses someplace close by, otherwise we're going to have to self tech Arch, yes? It seems like everything is up in the air until AH comes in and lets us know what our future has in store for us.
If we settle on the red dot, we would get immediate access to the cows and rice. Rice can be farmed right away, and then when AH comes in we can put a pasture on the cows. With those two tiles improved and working the gems, we would still be at +2F which would give us the ability to work a specialist in the city, or another hill.
If we settle 1E of the rice, we lose instant access to the cows and would have to wait for a border pop before being able to improve them. Granted, since we are CRE that would only be 5 turns, and after farming the rice, AH should pretty much be in. We would lose 3 wet grass, 1 dry grass + 1 lake to possibly work for a gain of 1 grass hill, 1 dry grass and 3 coast. Those 3 coasts aren't workable until we have fishing, we wouldn't get trade routes until Sailing and then extra food only once a LH was built. Is it really more beneficial to settle a coastal city this early as opposed to one that can grow faster? Plus, it doesn't look like we will be prioritizing Fishing or Sailing anytime soon, the only way we would possibly get them would be trades once Alpha is in, and that's turns away.
Now that I think about it a bit more, we aren't trading too much by settling 1E, except for the ability to set up a bunch of cottages that both this town and our capital could work. I'm unsure how focused on cottaging we are at the moment, but that really is the only thing I can see as a downfall for settling that way. (Please let me know if I'm over analyzing this, trying to be as helpful as possible while still picking up learning things).
In regards to our 3rd city, considering how close Izzy is to us, it looks like we should snag some land from her before she boxes us in. If she's got her eye on that site, just like us, than I'm unsure if we will be able to beat her there in time. Plus, it's a bit of a ways away, and would put a number on our econ, yes?
I'm in agreement that we still should go TW>AH and then see what happens. Here's to hoping that we find horses someplace close by, otherwise we're going to have to self tech Arch, yes? It seems like everything is up in the air until AH comes in and lets us know what our future has in store for us.
My concern with not settling coastal (and I think 1E of rice is best coastal site although it wastes a forest) is that on this particular map, we run a risk of not getting any coastal sites for a very long time. The one up north could be iffy. No, I don't anticipate our using them anytime soon to settle that island but at least assure ourselves a coastal settle without going too much out of our way to place it.
But w/o seafood to really sway the issue for the coastal site versus inland one, I'm fine with consensus.
But w/o seafood to really sway the issue for the coastal site versus inland one, I'm fine with consensus.
@ShiVvV
That makes sense now, I was wondering what the emphasis on getting a coastal city this early in was. Thanks for the explanation, these are things that I forget to consider when settling cities, although it's not often you won't find at least 1 decent coastal site. And in all my fuss over figuring out the benefits of moving the site around, I completely missed the fact that we would be getting rid of a forest. I leave those decisions up to the more skilled players, I just wanted to let y'all know I'm following along and trying to process all of the deeper strategies.
That makes sense now, I was wondering what the emphasis on getting a coastal city this early in was. Thanks for the explanation, these are things that I forget to consider when settling cities, although it's not often you won't find at least 1 decent coastal site. And in all my fuss over figuring out the benefits of moving the site around, I completely missed the fact that we would be getting rid of a forest. I leave those decisions up to the more skilled players, I just wanted to let y'all know I'm following along and trying to process all of the deeper strategies.
Izuul
Level 86
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2012
- Messages
- 6,941
There's probably a ton of land here with the settings, so i would expect to get the fish site later. Or if not we can always smack somebody around and take their coastal cities. I dunno, it's just something i never emphasize unless specific circumstances dictate otherwise.
pigswill
fly (one day)
Question for the team. If we have horses nearby do we want to claim them with first settler or second?
Learning here too, Deonnim. Been following your Greek game and sounds like you're well on your way to putting it all together. I've been enjoying picking Izuul's mind and learn things every post of his...and, he's not even playing this game, just moonlighting! I wouldn't necessarily consider myself all that skilled a player, just been playing a long time but have been playing in semi-isolation a long time. I'm pretty skilled at struggling at immortal though!
I think we keep city two in place (Red Dot or it's coastal variations). It's going to be a strong city, allows us to split gems until libraries/bureau and it's very quick to set up. Third city should go towards Izzy if we don't pop some horses in a reasonable place. ShiVvV and I both have dotmaps, though they vary so we might want to start discussing those.
Also, still not sold on coastal. We have 4 civs on our continent, so I think our coastal opportunities are ahead of us. We should be thinking very little about the navy until all these guys are under our control.
Also, still not sold on coastal. We have 4 civs on our continent, so I think our coastal opportunities are ahead of us. We should be thinking very little about the navy until all these guys are under our control.
