Abortion - What do you think about it?

[floppa21]

Sister Spycatcher, listen to your brother in faith... Science can't say, only the Word can say (worder up) and a parasitic microbe does NOT have a soul whereas a fetus is a living work of art with a soul made by the Lord JEEEzuss!!! Unless of course you don't put much into that personally hence what I just said is useless to you. Science can't determine what makes something alive but religion can. Simple fact just accept it or burn in hell... (yes that was all laced with sarcasm, okay, doused with it)

As for blood transfusions... What if you were a vampire like Miko? Blah! :vampire: I was in a hospital when I was 16 (car accident) and my father did not okay them to use donor blood for safety reasons (which I think was a little pushing it, they do test it and all...) but instead used some blood expanders/protein crap... It worked just as well (I have no strange rare blood type) Does God want the blood or the worshippers? Off Topic...

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by spycatcher34

Well what exactly is in that "pack of cells" that makes the fetus devolp, if not a "brain" of some sort?

ADN.
The exact same system that works for ALL living beings.
ADN in itself does not make a person, it's just the basis to build one.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by Becka


Wouldn't that just prove you need a brain to survive, since it controls everything?

Nope.
What I mean is : you take someone, rip his arm off. Still, it's the same person. He'll think the same, have the same memories, it won't hamper his intelligence, or change the people he loves/hate (ok, perhaps he will hate me then, but that would not be because he has one arm less, but because I was the one ripping it ), or modify anything in his mind.
You can do the same with a leg, the heart, a lung, the stomach, intestines, eye, ear, etc... Provided you replace the part of his body with an artificial one that is able to do the physical job, it will always be the same : this person will stay what he is, and won't have different mind, spirit, memories, opinion, feelings and so on.
He will stay the same.
But you can't do the same with the brain. Whatever the way you do it, you can't even replace a PART of the brain without damaging, changing or killing his personnality.

Rip the brain apart from a man : what you will have is an empty body, a pack of cell that is perhaps living, mechanically speaking. But it's not a person anymore (or if you have the way to restore the personnality of someone whose brain has been destroyed, give it to doctors, as they would be extremely interested in it).

Then conclusion I obtain from these constatation : if you can change all the part of the body BUT the brain without altering the personnality/mind/spirit, and you CAN'T alter the brain without altering the personnality/mind/spirit, it's plainly obvious that the personnality/mind/spirit of the person rest in the brain.
Hence a human without a brain is not a person.
Hence destroying it is not murder.
Hence destroying a fetus without nervous system is not murder.

Simple, plain logic. I still wait for anyone to counter it without resorting on blind belief.

 

[floppa21]

Ah I like that post Akka...

ADN? DNA? Is that European?

 

[Demetrias]

I thought i did it is scientifically proven that one celled orgamisms are alive that fetish sure has more then one cell. If your saying that the Nervous system gives us a soul and that is what makes us a person then you are not using sound logic but belief and you are being the religious nut not us.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by floppa21
Ah I like that post Akka...

ADN? DNA? Is that European?

Oups !
Yes, DNA
ADN is french

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by Demetrias
I thought i did it is scientifically proven that one celled orgamisms are alive that fetish sure has more then one cell. If your saying that the Nervous system gives us a soul and that is what makes us a person then you are not using sound logic but belief and you are being the religious nut not us.

Where did I used the word "soul" ?

 

[The Troquelet]

Then again, the "Bible" never says anything about it either, does it? So you're not exactly being impartial.

 

[TheGrimReaper]

Hence a human without a brain is not a person.
Hence destroying it is not murder.
Hence destroying a fetus without nervous system is not murder.
--------------------------

Actually, your logic is very flawed, unless you DONT support abortion. For you see, the nervous system first appears at around the 3rd week as the Neural plate, a time when most women dont realise they are pregnant, thereby nobody should be allowed to have an abortion as the nervous system will already have appeared by the time they know they are pregnant.

 

[Citizen_K]

And a widely used method of abortion is sucking the brain of the fetus out through a tube.

Has anyone here actually detailed the procedures of abortion or discussed whether or not those details are relevant?

Or is it too icky for those supporting it to confront?

Oh, and by the way, Akka your incendiary comments really prove that you yourself are the fanatic of the two. In the name of tolerance you prove that you are intolerant to the beliefs of someone who tolerates only one truth as true. You seem to point you finger snobbishly at so-called "religious fanatics," but you turn you back on the existence of "atheist fanatics," who zealously guard and doggedly advance the "truth" that all of us live in a naturalistic closed-system void of any intelligent creator, and everybody else is not only a liar but a brainwashed moron who knows nothing of the supreme ooze whom we all were birthed from in the beginning.
Yes, you see I can be narrow and condescending, as well.

I could go on about this whole silly belief system of "Relative Truth," but my clock is fast approaching 11:50 and so I must refer you to the above question on the actual medical procedures of abortion.

EDIT: This all was written in a half-joking manner, in anticipation of all future Flames.

 

[The Troquelet]

(meant in the best possible way) Citizen K, your fourth paragraph is fallacy. Do schools give equal time to creationism and evolution? Why do you think that is?

Besides, I don't understand why anyone is bringing religion into this at all. It has nothing to do with religion. There is no religious basis for saying you know what Moses or Jesus or Buddha or Mohammed would do: they never even mention the subject.

Regardless, this is more of a legal question than a moral one. People create morals to fit the social situation, they don't create a social situation to fit the morals. If Christians are so hot about abortion and the sin of killing foetuses, why does America, with a Christian majority, have so much theft, murder, and adultery, when these are even more imperative Christian abominations?

Frankly, most people are quite good at ignoring their relative Savior's commandments when it's inconvenient. Almost as good as they are at dictating moral law to other people. "Practice what I advocate, not what I shamelessly ignore"..

 

[Brad]

Mr. Pres. Sorry... blood trans. are against my religion, hope that clears things up for you
While the BBL doesn't say that you shouldn't take a trans. (which if you think about it makes TOTAL SENSE because they didn't have them in BBL times. just as it doesn't say not to use nucklear weapons or that you shouldn't drive without a seatbelt) it does however say that blood is sacred and that you should "ABSTAIN FROM BLOOD" (ACTS 15:28,29) Now this is talking about eating blood.. but would it not make sense that if blood is sacred in God's eyes, and He doesn't want us to even EAT IT that he wouldn't want us to take it in to our body in any way.

 

[MrPresident]

I fully understand your agrument that since the Bible says that blood is sacred that you should take it in your body in any way. However if someone has given up their blood, i.e. a blood donor like myself, for you to use to save your life. Then that person is giving up something sacred to give you anohter chance. How can that be bad? It is like giving up your life to save another. To turn down that blood is to turn down everything that is good about humanity. Also eating blood is completely different to a blood transfusion.

I would just like to say that I am not attacking your beliefs and I respect your right to hold these beliefs or any other beliefs that you want. I am just trying to understand why you have them.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by Citizen_K

Oh, and by the way, Akka your incendiary comments really prove that you yourself are the fanatic of the two. In the name of tolerance you prove that you are intolerant to the beliefs of someone who tolerates only one truth as true. You seem to point you finger snobbishly at so-called "religious fanatics," but you turn you back on the existence of "atheist fanatics," who zealously guard and doggedly advance the "truth" that all of us live in a naturalistic closed-system void of any intelligent creator, and everybody else is not only a liar but a brainwashed moron who knows nothing of the supreme ooze whom we all were birthed from in the beginning.
Yes, you see I can be narrow and condescending, as well.

I am incendiary, arrogant and condescending toward Fearlessleader, sure
But as I already said, I'm not fanatic. You just have to prove me something with reasoning and facts, and I'll accept it, which is completely incompatible with fanatism.
BTW, I never attacked the existence of God or the soul or anything religious. If you carefully read what I said, I only used facts to support the proof that what makes our spirit/mind what it is is located in the brain, no more.
Don't make me say what I never said

(and I still wait for someone to counter my point with reasoning and proofs )

 

[bigfatron]

Originally posted by Brad
Mr. Pres. Sorry... blood trans. are against my religion, hope that clears things up for you
While the BBL doesn't say that you shouldn't take a trans. (which if you think about it makes TOTAL SENSE because they didn't have them in BBL times. just as it doesn't say not to use nucklear weapons or that you shouldn't drive without a seatbelt) it does however say that blood is sacred and that you should "ABSTAIN FROM BLOOD" (ACTS 15:28,29) Now this is talking about eating blood.. but would it not make sense that if blood is sacred in God's eyes, and He doesn't want us to even EAT IT that he wouldn't want us to take it in to our body in any way.

The bible says all sorts of weird things, from how to clean your hands after a sh1t, through who a woman should marry if her husband dies, to what to do if a soldier jerks off in military camp. Some of it is mutually contradictory.

I know a of no-one who follows, or even tries to follow the bible's instructions to the letter, everyone picks and chooses to some degree. I'm fotrunate to know some people who lead genuinely moral and worthwhile lives (not including me I hasten to add, I'm a sinner, yes oh lord!), some of whom are devout Christians. I may be a humnaist but I have great respect for anyone who can lead their life in the spirit of Jesus' message.

Still, that said, anyone who thinks the bible is the literal word of God is kidding themselves.

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by TheGrimReaper
Hence a human without a brain is not a person.
Hence destroying it is not murder.
Hence destroying a fetus without nervous system is not murder.
--------------------------

Actually, your logic is very flawed, unless you DONT support abortion. For you see, the nervous system first appears at around the 3rd week as the Neural plate, a time when most women dont realise they are pregnant, thereby nobody should be allowed to have an abortion as the nervous system will already have appeared by the time they know they are pregnant.

Sure, but is the nervous system sufficiently developped to allow the fetus to feel before the 14-15th week ?
(that is a question, as I don't know myself)

EDIT : found the answer on .http://www.vigilclonage.com/temps.htm : The second phase last until about the third month after the gestation. The cortex is at this time not fully formed. The nervous system has not been built around the brain, which means that the embryon is still not a being able to feel.


I consider that abortion should be allowed on a simple wish from the mother until the fetus has this kind of nervous system, allowing it to start to feel.
Abortion for mother's health reasons should have no limit of time

 

[The Troquelet]

Brad, blood is not as sacred as you think. “But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as
goeth on still in his trespasses. The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring
my people again from the depths of the sea: That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of
thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same” (Psalms 68:21-23).

 

[Switch625]

Originally posted by Akka
(and I still wait for someone to counter my point with reasoning and proofs )

I can't speak for anyone else, but I never attacked your reasoning because I didn't want to. What that means is, I don't find much fault with it, from a logical standpoint. Any counterpoint I might make would be from a personal perspective. My point all along, which you consistantly missed, was that your ATTITUDE undermines whatever arguments you attempt to make. There is a proper way to debate someone, and that way does not entail ripping someone a new hole simply because you disagree with them. Counter their points with logic, and do it rationally, not with arrogance and venom.

Oh, and I stopped responding to you earlier because I got really frustrated with your inability to see that I wasn't trying to attack your argument by attacking you (I never was trying to attack your argument). My next post would have been a flame, so I decided to take time off to calm down.

 

[Demetrias]

Originally posted by The Troquelet


Regardless, this is more of a legal question than a moral one. People create morals to fit the social situation, they don't create a social situation to fit the morals. If Christians are so hot about abortion and the sin of killing foetuses, why does America, with a Christian majority, have so much theft, murder, and adultery, when these are even more imperative Christian abominations?

Troq the US does not have a Christian majority and even christians will admit they are humans not gods so they mess up sometimes. But the people who claim they are christians and go out every friday night and get drunk or stoned are not christians neither are the people who sleep around all the time. If you took all these people out of those who claim to be christians you would only be left with like twenty percent left who truly are. Just going to a church every sunday and saying you believe in God does not make you a christian. For even the Demons believe and shudder in Fear.

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by The Troquelet
. The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring
my people again from the depths of the sea: That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of
thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same” (Psalms 68:21-23).

More gibberish from a dusty defunct book written by a bunch of nomadic savages...
When will people grow up and stop turning to this rotting relic for guidance?

If blood tranfusions can save a life, it should be done.
And seeing as these religious half-wits are going to refuse medical help from enlightened, helpful people,
they should go and perish somewhere and leave the hospital resources for people who appreciate it...