Abortions: yes or no?

[Tycoon101]

Um, okay.

But you'd be hard pressed to tell a 'test tube' person from a 'normal' person when you meet them in school.

So, in order to justify your stance against abortion, you need to consider 'test tube babies' as 'non-people'? Okay ...

Yes, they are illegitimate children such as those born out of wedlock. They are not truly human. I suppose that they are subhuman if you look at it from my stance.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@bigfatron: I know that I will never have the exact same dilemma or thought processes as a woman who is deciding to have an abortion. That doesn't change the basic fact that I equate abortion with homicide - it doesn't matter what thought processes lead to it if it is wrong anyways.

 

[El_Machinae]

Yes, they are illegitimate children such as those born out of wedlock. They are not truly human. I suppose that they are subhuman if you look at it from my stance.

So, you don't mind if someone has an abortion if the baby is formed out of wedlock, then? 'Cause then it's not really killing a human.

 

[Tycoon101]

So, you don't mind if someone has an abortion if the baby is formed out of wedlock, then? 'Cause then it's not really killing a human.

But I don't support abortions for any human or sub-human then. I hate abortions for any human, or subhuman person I suppose. Nice catch.

 

[El_Machinae]

I would again like to point out that part of your logic against abortion includes thinking of some people as 'sub-human'.

But, if a bastard girl gets pregnant out of wedlock (the bastard of a bastard), surely the subhuman progeny of a subhuman is abortable, yes?

Anyway, if you now think it's wrong to abort potential subhumans, we're back to the problem with your skin scratching. Because it's well within your power to nurture those cells into becoming sub-human (or abstaining from scratching in the first place). If you don't nurture them, then you're just aborting them because it's not convenient.

 

[Tycoon101]

I would again like to point out that part of your logic against abortion includes thinking of some people as 'sub-human'.

But, if a bastard girl gets pregnant out of wedlock (the bastard of a bastard), surely the subhuman progeny of a subhuman is abortable, yes?

Anyway, if you now think it's wrong to abort potential subhumans, we're back to the problem with your skin scratching. Because it's well within your power to nurture those cells into becoming sub-human (or abstaining from scratching in the first place). If you don't nurture them, then you're just aborting them because it's not convenient.

Well crap. I'm suppose that I must concede that I have botched my point of view up in your eyes. I think that I'll step out of this thread for a while.

 

[Stapel]

I always like to bring this discussion down to two questions:

What to do when two human rights conflict (the right to be in control of your own body and the right of any human being to live)?

Where does a human being start to be a human being (conception, brain activity, birth)?

 

[downtown]

Yeah, that'd be a good idea kid. When you start bringing "subhumans" into the mix....really. You're messed. up. Arent even people born out of wedlock...you know, children of God? you're Hateful dude.

Pragmatically, I think it ought to be legal, since we as a society dont have the support system to take all those unwanted babies. If pro-lifers were willing to fork over billions of dollars to create a new adoption/child welfare program, and it actually worked, perhaps we could get rid of it.

I pray that I never find myself in a posistion where me and my girlfriend/wife would have to think about this

 

[Stapel]

I pray that I never find myself in a posistion where me and my girlfriend/wife would have to think about this

You might also pray that you will never find yourself in a situation where your GF/wife simply announces that she has aborted your off-spring, without your consult.


What I mean to say:
If abortion is legal, (partially) based on a human being's right to be in control of its own body, the man has nothing to say about it.

 

[downtown]

You might also pray that you will never find yourself in a situation where your GF/wife simply announces that she has aborted your off-spring, without your consult.


What I mean to say:
If abortion is legal, (partially) based on a human being's right to be in control of its own body, the man has nothing to say about it.

Yes, that would be just as bad.

I dont know a good solutioin as far as the man's place in the abortion debate. It is in her body...but half of it is mine, is it not? Surely, a choice of this magnitude ought to involve both parties input

 

[Shadylookin]

1.since when do they care whether abortion is legal or not.
surely it was mainly to appease the abortion hungry public.
[slightly sarcastic above].

yes because the majority of americans get knocked up once a month and head to the abortion clinics after Sunday services.

2.i said it was a glob. i didnt say it was sentient. i said it is morally wrong to kill a foetus that is developing into a baby.

if i go into a coma and they suspect i'm brain dead they can pull the plug and abort me. I am a tax paying fullfledged citizen and my parents(my next of kin) can choose to get rid of me if my brain stops(a decision i fully support but nevermind that). So why is it moraly wrong to get rid of something that isn't born, and has no life experiences, nor is it capable of thought.

4.would you prefer not living at all? by the way, they dont really serve gruel.

given the option of not being born and having to live in a state run institution until i am 18 years old(upon which i'll be abandond and left to fend for myself) I'd choose to been aborted.

5.could you provide a link to such an incident?

That the courts were more conservative when Roe Vs Wade was originally upheld and continued to be upheld even during the regan administration, that it takes a long time to adopt someone, or that Foster homes have a history of abuse?

6.i did not state that foetuses are in fact babies i said they are babies in development and that it is morally wrong to kill them because of that.

all 100 million sperm are babies in development doesn't mean they get legal rights or that it is moraly wrong to let them die.

7.i know, thats why i mentioned those alternatives you tossed aside.

because the alternatives aren't that great for most individuals

the government should increase funding for this.

Why? the government has no qualms with abortion, and most people don't want their taxes to keep going up so that another unwanted child can come into existance. you're the one with the morals objections why don't you stand outside abortion clinics and offer the women money to raise children instead of get abortions if you don't like it.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I say potential isn't what matters; fetuses might not be "babies" but they are still people. A fetus will have more brain activity than a braindead person. And you might prefer death to a foster home, but that doesn't make it right to kill you.

 

[Shadylookin]

I say potential isn't what matters; fetuses might not be "babies" but they are still people.

We have a fundamental disagreement. I feel that if it isn't sentient, isn't capable of thought, and lacks a fully functioning brain then it isn't a person and doesn't deserve rights. You however disagree and there probably isn't anything i can do to get you to accept my viewpoint

A fetus will have more brain activity than a braindead person. And you might prefer death to a foster home, but that doesn't make it right to kill you.

It gives you the right to kill me if i'm an undeveloped fetus which is what i would want.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Define "fully functioning brain". The human brain goes through a process of development during gestation - and continues to develop after birth, which means that if you consider reaching its full potential to be the requirement, we can kill everyone under the age of 25. If not, there has to be some cutoff point, and there is significant brain activity by the last stages of fetal development.

Biologically speaking, I have never heard a good argument that birth itself is the defining characteristic or stage, that is at that exact moment that one becomes human. It is just that we don't have to see the person we are killing before birth as we do afterwards.

 

[El_Machinae]

That's why I think that the actual 'morally acceptable' stage is either before birth, or a few months after (I don't have enough data to determine which is a better time, and choose to err on the side of caution).

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

You think it is morally acceptable to kill a month-old infant? This is a serious question.

 

[El_Machinae]

Oh goodness, no.

I said that the moral point might be there, but I certainly don't have enough data to hold that stance. So, I err on the side of caution, and assume that the minimal neural data is while the baby is in the womb.

I am quite sure that it's one or the other, but I don't know which (for sure).

 

[Dionysius]

1. yes because the majority of americans get knocked up once a month and head to the abortion clinics after Sunday services.

2. if i go into a coma and they suspect i'm brain dead they can pull the plug and abort me. I am a tax paying fullfledged citizen and my parents(my next of kin) can choose to get rid of me if my brain stops(a decision i fully support but nevermind that). So why is it moraly wrong to get rid of something that isn't born, and has no life experiences, nor is it capable of thought.

3. given the option of not being born and having to live in a state run institution until i am 18 years old(upon which i'll be abandond and left to fend for myself) I'd choose to been aborted.

4. That the courts were more conservative when Roe Vs Wade was originally upheld and continued to be upheld even during the regan administration, that it takes a long time to adopt someone, or that Foster homes have a history of abuse?

5. all 100 million sperm are babies in development doesn't mean they get legal rights or that it is moraly wrong to let them die.

6. because the alternatives aren't that great for most individuals

7. Why? the government has no qualms with abortion, and most people don't want their taxes to keep going up so that another unwanted child can come into existance. you're the one with the morals objections why don't you stand outside abortion clinics and offer the women money to raise children instead of get abortions if you don't like it.

1. I`ll take that as either sarcasm or an exaggeration.

2. feel free to decide to be ended when you are brain dead.
I. it will be born otherwise II.neither have babies. III. it WILL be.
3. are you really this suicidal, or just contrary?
4. your point being...? shouldnt take long to put them IN.
5.anything from foestuses upwards. i have been quite clear on this.
6.could people not simply try to use bloody condoms? make them more widely and discreetly available.
7. where i live abortion is already illegal and we seem to be coping.
and; a question, say you had full fireman training, saw a burning house across
the street with a baby inside. would you rescue it, knowing it would have expensive health problems ever after, or let it die to save the almighty taxpayers money?

 

[Mathilda]

Can't be bothered to read the whole thread, sorry.
I'm comfotable with abortion up to 14 weeks, 20 weeks if there is a serious medical issue.
A 22 week old ones have been known to survive, even they are frightfully small and underdeveloped.
Educating the boys again:
Anyone saying "allowed during first month only" don't know what they are talking about as it's very unlikely that a woman would even know that she's pregnant by then. Pregnancy is calculated from the start of the last periods and pregnancy tests aren't reliable before you are at least two weeks "late" i.e. six weeeks pregnant.

 

[Atlas14]

Abortion is fine if done before the 2 month of pregnancy, as brain activity is very low, and a primitive has barely started beating at the end of 6 weeks. However, as Mathilda said, it is difficult for women to know before then that they are even pegnant. Also, im not a big fan of bringing babies into this world simply for the heck of it, I don't really cherish the "birth of a newborn" in the same religious way some people do. To me its just another person who will be using too many resources, high potential of resorting to crime/murder if not raised properly, and takes up space. I don't want to have to dish out more money in taxes, especially when I get older, to pay for someone else's mistake, who has a great chance of resorting to crime.