Abu Musab al-Zarqawi has been killed.

[Lambert Simnel]

Thank you for saying our messages are unreadable, and I must say I agree.

But this is getting so OT we're getting sued very soon.

Apologies for being over-blunt. As Ram will confirm, this is somewhat a tendency of mine

 

[Azmorg]

I do not see anything there that changes the facts of the case. The camera man may not have have had the tenuous links to some organisation I know nothing about, some magazine I have never read did not see a photo that is known to exisist, then some throwing of accusations of no relavence and doubtfull accuracy, and the marrines trying to cover there backsides with some story about fighting (that may or may not be true, but do not change the facts of the case).

What are you trying to say with this link?

What I'm trying to get you to think about is what you say are facts.
How do you know they are facts? Were you there? Of are you relying on media reports? And if you are relying on media reports (which I am sure you are), how do you know that the media you are relying on is reporting the "facts" and not reporting their desire? You see, the media these days has become terribly polarized and biased. There are many publications that will "report" what they hope are facts because they have an agenda. So I am attempting to get you all to examine your own pre-suppositions and perhaps concider that the media you rely on might just be distorting the facts for their own purposes.

 

[Mott1]

Heh. Takes all sorts. I thought this thread was dying a death because it had become an argument between just 2 or 3 posters with a series of long posts, almost unreadable to anyone who wasn't one of the protagonists. One of the things I dislike about Off Topic is where two people get into the mode of having to counter each and every point the other says, rather than focusing on the key issues and being concise. But clearly you feel differently (which is fine, I was just so surprised by your comment that I thought I highlight the difference).

Actually I thought this thread lost its momentum long before the argument between the two or three posters, which is exactly what it was, a direct argument between three posters.
The argument was fashioned in a "quote and reply" method that is common in forum debate between two individuals. Although the format was a bit sloppy it was not intended to appeal to an outside audience. At least not on my part.
I posted my key issues on another thread and the argument somehow carried over into this one, so I can understand the confusion.

Thank you for saying our messages are unreadable, and I must say I agree.

I don't know, were we writing in hieroglyphics?
Hard to follow? yes.
Unreadable? only if you can't read english.

 

[Mott1]

Mott1, you make some very well thought out points. I like your style of argument: clear, concise, to the point. It would be nice if everyone were as astute. It appears that you have some knowledge of the Koran and the Hadith. An excellent book that critiques the Koran is "Secrests of the Koran" by Donald Richardson.

Hello Azmorg,
I do have extensive knowledge of the Quran and Hadith, it was a part of my life for quite a long time. I really havn't read any books that criticize Islam, to me the Quran is self-incriminating.
Although I have read 'Leaving Islam' by Ibn Warraq which helped me greatly with my transition. I'll be sure to take a look at the book you suggested.

Thanks

 

[HannibalBarka]

To all of those who would draw moral equivalencies between the marines and Zarqawi

I draw a moral equivalence between the two IF those Marines really did the masscre. You don't?

I have some questions: Are you absolutely sure that you have all the facts about what happened at Haditha?

Absolutly no. I haven't been there, so I can't objectively be sure about what happened exactly.

Or are you simply pre-disposed to thinking poorly of the US military and so latch onto any opportunity that arises to bash?

I am no more pre-disposed to thinking poorly about the US military than I am about other military, or other human being with a gun for that matter.
Are all Marines a bunch of murderers? Sure no, The vast majority aren't. They are humans like you and me.
Is it possible that some of them did do massacres? Sure It is possible. They've did it before (Vietnam, Abu Ghraib), and honestly I think they'll do it again. Every war had its "scandals"; no matter who is fighting who and for what cause. And people who think that Marines do receive more training about Geneva convention than they used to, thus no more atrocities are possible are fooling themselves. Every Army on Earth claim being the most moral of all.
Do you realy think that US Marines are uncapable of committing atrocities?

Are you absolutely sure that the news media from which you get your information is completely non-biased and totally accurate in its reporting? Or is there a possiblility that many of these publications are left leaning, anti-Bush administration and would go to great lengths to distort the truth in order to make their point?

That is rethoric my friend. I can ask you the same question. I don't think there are un-biased media; but some are less biased than other about certain subject. I won't take the news I want about say the Chenchen War on KremlinNews.com nor will I take them from LongLiveChenchen.org. But there few media I tend to trust (BBC, CNN, Time, NY Times, etc), although I try to read the counter story from other media.

I challenge all of you who believe implicitly, only on the say so of news reports that are of a dubious nature, that the marines are guilty of atrocities at Haditha to read the following article. I challance you to read it and then post your responses.
http://townhall.com/opinion/columns/MaryKatharineHam/2006/06/12/200752.html

I read the article. I don't know the columnist, but she seems to be openly pro-bush, so my first impression is that she is far from being "objective" and she is a conservative leaning, pro-Bush administration and would go to great lengths to distort the truth in order to make her point? to quote you. But than again, as I said above, I am not sure about what did happen really, but I don't think that it is impossible that it did happen the way Times reported it. And IF that is the case, than, Yes, I definetly will draw moral equivalencies between those Marines and Zarqawi. Don't you?