Accents!

[Communisto]

I was wondering today about accents. How do they come about? I'm not talking about a Persian speaking with an accent when he talks in German, I'm talking more about a Texan speaking English differently than an Ontarian.

How do accents form? More specifically, how did accents of a single language split and differ throughout a large country like the United States?

Also, how long do you think it takes to pick up an accent after being completely imersed in one?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I have heard (don't know if it is true) that if you learn a language after the age of 14 you are likely to have a foreign accent for the rest of your life.

 

[Love]

I have different swedish accents.

 

[gallego]

I was wondering today about accents. How do they come about? I'm not talking about a Persian speaking with an accent when he talks in German, I'm talking more about a Texan speaking English differently than an Ontarian.

How do accents form? More specifically, how did accents of a single language split and differ throughout a large country like the United States?

Also, how long do you think it takes to pick up an accent after being completely imersed in one?

This link answers those questions in detail:

http://www.linguistlist.org/ask-ling/accent.html

People debate about learning new languages or accents with native-like pronunciation. It's hard, and most people who start after puberty don't get it perfect. However, it is not clear whether it is so simply because adults just can't learn a new lanague perfectly, or whether they just don't put in the time and effort to adopt the new identity. Remember, kids take years to learn their first language and they have a huge need to identify themselves with those around them to get what they need. As an adult, you already have an identity and your desire to really, really be one of the people around you is diminished. Your muscles are also trained to another language, which takes effort to change.

Within the same language, people learn new accents all the time. I've heard very convincing American accents from British actors/actresses and vice versa. I'm not a linguist but I've read up on this stuff and I am led to believe that it is not 100% impossible to learn a new accent or language perfectly as an adult, just difficult and very time-consuming and requiring some deep willpower. Either way, you won't be fooling local people without several years of practice if a new language, maybe less with the same language but different accent. But then you also have to worry about vocabulary and customs. If you talk like a group of people but don't act like them or know all the words, you will seem strange.

 

[Arwon]

Time + distance + multiple communities, basically. Language change is constant and mostly unconscious.

People pick up sounds from those around them. This exposure is never uniform nor stable. A lot of it comes down to random chance since accents are largely unconscious. In the case of immigrant/settler populations, accents in a particular area are basically a result of the mix of people that settled it. Hence, the south of New Zealand has a stronger Scottish influence in it than the rest of the country, Australians have a strong influence from Irish and working class London, and people in Minnesota speak with a slightly Scandinavian sing-songiness.

Be careful of thinking of accents as being related to some absolute neutral, correct, or non-accented speech because there's no such thing. The concept of having "no accent" makes no sense.

 

[Drewcifer]

A lot of regional accents in the US come from the different immigrant groups that moved to various parts of the country. For example the Minnesota accent comes from Scandinavians and Germans, New York is heavily influenced by Italians and Puerto Ricans, etc.

 

[Bill3000]

It's dialect, not accent.

 

[Arwon]

Naw. The delineations between accent/dialects/languages can be a little arbitrary, but they're there. Dialects are more distinct from each other than accents. One dialect can contain multiple accents. America contains a few dialects but many more accents.

(I know you're being flippant, I'm still being a language nerd though!)

 

[GuitarHero]

I'm not sure how they form, but I have a bad Midwestern accent. Like Coach Z or Pickles. If you don't know who I'm talking about, Coach Z is from the Homestar Runner cartoons (I'm not young, I just think they're sorta funny) and Pickles is the Drummer of Dethklok.

 

[Masquerouge]

I know that while my spoken English is pretty good, I still have an accent. More than most French people I know, less than my French wife.

Trying to get rid of it is incredibly difficult since it demands a constant focus on every single word you say, something you can not reasonably do in your daily job.

 

[Mirc]

I have heard (don't know if it is true) that if you learn a language after the age of 14 you are likely to have a foreign accent for the rest of your life.

It is also that your mother language might help you a lot or might give you a big disadvantage in learning another language. For example, I swear I have never seen a Frenchman to speak English with no accent, however, I've seen Romanians or Germans speaking it perfectly. Also, I've never seen a native English speaker to be able to pronounce Romanian without a very heavy accent, and strange vowels, while the other way around is easily happening for a lot of people, and they are actually able to speak it perfectly. From what I noticed, Turks tend to speak very well most European languages (especially Romance ones) while Englishmen/women tend to speak everything with a really strange (and funny most of the time) accent.

 

[emzie]

I apparently have a slight accent here.

 

[Arwon]

Mirc.

That's basically because we have our native syntax and phonemes imprinted on our minds and they carry over into other languages. The more different another language is, the harder it's going to be to bridge the gaps perfectly.

Even stuff that doesn't cause problems with mutual comprehension can be different. There's nothing confusing about the 't' sound in Spanish and English, but although they're functionally identical, they're actually slightly different in pronunciation. In stressed syllables, English speakers will put a strong little 'plosive' into their 't's which Spanish-speakers won't do. (A plosive is a little aspiration noise... English speakers can compare the P in the word 'park' to the word 'stopped' and hear the little popping noise in 'Park'. Some languages treat these two sounds as being different letters). Stuff like this is rife... many supposedly identical consonants are actually pronounced slightly differently. How many English speakers learning Spanish are taught, for example, that Ds are articulated in a different point of the mouth in that language?

Even for perfectly fluent speakers these little subtleties can be the difference between a native and non-native accent.

 

[Mirc]

Mirc.

That's basically because we have our native syntax and phonemes imprinted on our minds and they carry over into other languages. The more different another language is, the harder it's going to be to bridge the gaps perfectly.

Even stuff that doesn't cause problems with mutual comprehension can be different. There's nothing confusing about the 't' sound in Spanish and English, but although they're functionally identical, they're actually slightly different in pronunciation. In stressed syllables, English speakers will put a strong little 'plosive' into their 't's which Spanish-speakers won't do. (A plosive is a little aspiration noise... English speakers can compare the P in the word 'park' to the word 'stopped' and hear the little popping noise in 'Park'. Some languages treat these two sounds as being different letters). Stuff like this is rife... many supposedly identical consonants are actually pronounced slightly differently.

I know this! And I agree.

How many English speakers learning Spanish are taught, for example, that Ds are articulated in a different point of the mouth in that language?

I didn't know that. I did notice though that Spanish has weird Ds - it is also the only Romance language I've ever heard that made the change from "t" to "d" (like in "totus" -> "toto" -> "todo", meaning "all"), unlike other Romance (or Germanic) languages that have exactly the opposite tendency (for example, in German, virtually any "D" at the end of words is pronounced like "T").

 

[Arwon]

Yeah, basically, Spanish Ds are more dental than alveolar (tongue goes between the teeth rather than on the alveolar ridge above them). They also, quite often, get reduced to practically nothing, such as in the past participle (comprado = comprao).

 

[angeleyes]

I was wondering today about accents. How do they come about? I'm not talking about a Persian speaking with an accent when he talks in German, I'm talking more about a Texan speaking English differently than an Ontarian.

How do accents form? More specifically, how did accents of a single language split and differ throughout a large country like the United States?

Also, how long do you think it takes to pick up an accent after being completely imersed in one?

The question is not how accents are formed (=natural), but how a standard lanquage is formed (by power).

 

[scherbchen]

Let's take a look at Spanish!

Spanish on the peninsula is broken up into 2 major (secondary) dialects, or two norms.

Norm 1: part of the northern old dialects of Spain, centered around Burgos, the original name was castellano after the region, castilia. This expanded to the south through the reconquista and repupulation of the conquered lands, but is not the norm. Other dialects influence on this one in the process. With the conquest of Toledo we have a new center (wasn't it even the capital at one time?) where dialects come together, the old Burgos dialect is dominant and becomes the language to write literature and anything relatated to judicial purposes in (in other parts of Europe this is still Latin).

Norm 2: Conquest of Andalucia/Sevilla. Another new center where dialects converge, but we already have a written norm (Toledo, later Valladolid and Madrid). This one will be heavily exported into Latin America and is distinguished by some pronounciation and grammar differences.

voila, the making of a dialect. But the Spanish way to a (minor) dialect is quite unique due to it's history. However, it has been said that Spanish now consists of about 7 major dialects all over the world.

P.S: I do not believe that a Texan English can be considered a dialect of English English.Well, maybe a tertiary dialect.

P.P.S: on secondary and trtiary dialects:

- primary dialect: this would be for example any romance language that evolved into a new dialect by being superceded by vulgar Latin. In it's time, before being recognized and normatized as a language Castellano and Catalan would be examples of this.
- secondary dialect: This is what happens when a primary dialect mixes with other primary dialects. The Spanish of Toledo and Sevilla would be good examples. Therefore all Spanish dialects are not able to form the following third dialect:
- tertiary dialect: primary dialect meets the standardized language and this creates a mixture between the two. Most common occurence is when a speaker of the primary dialect (my best example: Bavarian) tries to talk in the standardized language (High German) but falls back every now and then due to whatever reasons -> new dialect, "Light Bavarian".

 

[Ansar]

Bah, who cares about Iberian Spanish?

 

[MjM]

New World Spanish is ugly.

All I know is the Californian accent is supreme.

 

[Ansar]

New World Spanish is ugly.

Nah, it's just that you're used to Mexican immigrant accent.