Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
One thing you miss in the whole discussion on cascading: SGLs.
AG10 - OCC Conquest (Emperor)
- Thread starter Aggie
- Start date
It is true we don't mention SGL's, but I am totally unsure how we can handle that case. The SGL is totally random and unlikely event making it difficult to plan for.
I think we need to assume it won't happen, but then if some city gets a wonder early, then re-evaluate.
I think we need to assume it won't happen, but then if some city gets a wonder early, then re-evaluate.
Turn 0: I investigated a couple foreign cities:
Sun Tzu's: France (Avignon) 17 turns; Rome (Veii) 129 turns; Maya (Cuello) 76 turns;
Sistine: Maya (Tikal) 38 turns;
Leo's: French (Rheims) 30 turns; Maya (Quirigua) 62 turns;
Since there doesn't seem to be any danger of a cascade, I began on the Sistine Chapel (29 turns). I started researching Chivalry at 100% for 9 turns.
Turn 1: Someone is yet to discover Chivalry. Nothing much else.
IBT: Our MA with the Romans ended but they did not contact me (Is there some reason why we are in fake wars with the Incan and the Americans?).
Turn 2: I end the MA with the Romans and sign peace with the Americans (I had to pay 120 gold); they turn cautious instead of furious. I sign peace with the Incans (I paid 80 gold). I discover that the French had dicovered Chivalry and I pay the Frech 529 gold for it. Switch Sistine to Knights Templar (13 turns). No one else is building it yet. Begin on Gunpowder.
IBT: I renew our iron horses deal with the Mayans (I give incense and 88 gold).
Turn 3: Berlin riots (forgot to micromanage; sorry). I make a scientist and a trade with the Incans for furs.
IBT: We learn Gundpowder from the Great Library (Maya and French had it). I begin on PP at 50% (20 turns).
Turn 4: I investigate Chichen Itza (it's building the KT in 19 turns). Our's comes in 12 turns. French are building it in 23 turns.
Turn 5: Nothing much.
Turn 6: Nothing much.
Turn 7: KT in 9 turns.
Turn 8: Nothing much. We are definately getting the KT.
Turn 9: Not much.
Turn 10: Not much. KT in 6 turns.
Sun Tzu's: France (Avignon) 17 turns; Rome (Veii) 129 turns; Maya (Cuello) 76 turns;
Sistine: Maya (Tikal) 38 turns;
Leo's: French (Rheims) 30 turns; Maya (Quirigua) 62 turns;
Since there doesn't seem to be any danger of a cascade, I began on the Sistine Chapel (29 turns). I started researching Chivalry at 100% for 9 turns.
Turn 1: Someone is yet to discover Chivalry. Nothing much else.
IBT: Our MA with the Romans ended but they did not contact me (Is there some reason why we are in fake wars with the Incan and the Americans?).
Turn 2: I end the MA with the Romans and sign peace with the Americans (I had to pay 120 gold); they turn cautious instead of furious. I sign peace with the Incans (I paid 80 gold). I discover that the French had dicovered Chivalry and I pay the Frech 529 gold for it. Switch Sistine to Knights Templar (13 turns). No one else is building it yet. Begin on Gunpowder.
IBT: I renew our iron horses deal with the Mayans (I give incense and 88 gold).
Turn 3: Berlin riots (forgot to micromanage; sorry). I make a scientist and a trade with the Incans for furs.
IBT: We learn Gundpowder from the Great Library (Maya and French had it). I begin on PP at 50% (20 turns).
Turn 4: I investigate Chichen Itza (it's building the KT in 19 turns). Our's comes in 12 turns. French are building it in 23 turns.
Turn 5: Nothing much.
Turn 6: Nothing much.
Turn 7: KT in 9 turns.
Turn 8: Nothing much. We are definately getting the KT.
Turn 9: Not much.
Turn 10: Not much. KT in 6 turns.
Aggie
Deity
If we get the Knights Templar, we will enter the Golden Age (after Scientific Great Library this would be a military wonder). Any ideas what to do with it?
ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie-------- up
6thgentexan-- on deck
betazed
Greebley
homeyg
Microbe
ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie-------- up
6thgentexan-- on deck
betazed
Greebley
homeyg
Microbe
6thGenTexan
King
I would suggest making a run at Leo's but Rheims would be down to 14 turns. We could devote all our GA income to research and go for Shake's instead.
microbe
Cascaded Mansion
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2003
- Messages
- 4,596
I told you guys we didn't need to research Chivalry. We still wasted 2 turns of max income on it. Just be a little patient! 
We want to get Copernicus, ToG and Shakespear, but they are all probably too far away.
Do we need to research at all? I'd at most do min research atm.
Now you see the reason we were at war..
We want to get Copernicus, ToG and Shakespear, but they are all probably too far away.
Do we need to research at all? I'd at most do min research atm.
Now you see the reason we were at war..
I think the best way to handle Chivalry is to wait until the number of turns on the prebuild is 1 or 2 more than the time it would take to research the tech. This gives the AI some time to get the tech. If you can get Chivalry in 9 then starting to reseach at 10 turns on prebuild guarantees you get chivalry in time, but allows the AI time to research it. Once they do get it you can turn off research and see if the Great Library gives it to you. If you get to 1 turn on the prebuild then you buy it.
This all assumes that you know your prebuild isn't going to vanish. We did know this in this case since you investigated. You also have to watch out for Doc's Caveat - an SGL throws a monkey in the mix (ook!)
Note that I would start the research, because there is no guarantee that the AI will research Chivalry. It is highly likely, but I have seen games where Education was researched before chivalry and where chivalry has been delayed 20 odd turns. It is also possible that only 1 AI knows it so the library doesn't give it to you (in that case you can usually buy it) - just hope the AI doesn't declare war.
========================
MM note. We are at 0% lux with a scientist. This is slowing our prebuild down by a turn. I would raise Lux to 10% and MM to get the Templar dohickey in 5.
As Microbe stated, the wars were so we didn't have to go to 10% lux and spend the 10 odd gold on lux or hire a scientist and lose the shields and 6 odd gold we could be earning if we were working the square. War happiness can be a useful thing. There is some risk that Mayans or France would be drawn in of course, so stopping the war was not necessarily a bad thing.
This all assumes that you know your prebuild isn't going to vanish. We did know this in this case since you investigated. You also have to watch out for Doc's Caveat - an SGL throws a monkey in the mix (ook!)
Note that I would start the research, because there is no guarantee that the AI will research Chivalry. It is highly likely, but I have seen games where Education was researched before chivalry and where chivalry has been delayed 20 odd turns. It is also possible that only 1 AI knows it so the library doesn't give it to you (in that case you can usually buy it) - just hope the AI doesn't declare war.
========================
MM note. We are at 0% lux with a scientist. This is slowing our prebuild down by a turn. I would raise Lux to 10% and MM to get the Templar dohickey in 5.
As Microbe stated, the wars were so we didn't have to go to 10% lux and spend the 10 odd gold on lux or hire a scientist and lose the shields and 6 odd gold we could be earning if we were working the square. War happiness can be a useful thing. There is some risk that Mayans or France would be drawn in of course, so stopping the war was not necessarily a bad thing.
Aggie
Deity
IHT: I renew our lux deal with France and now get two luxuries for Incense (Spices and Furs). I cancel the ROP however.
Knights Templar in 5. We are going 50% science towards Printing Press. I raise it to 90%, because I don't like to go to min science after we invested in it already. We lose 38 gpt and have 1016 gold. PP in 8.
Turn 1 (660 AD) France and the Maya have Education.
IT: The Great Library has become obsolete.
turn 2-4 (670-690 AD)
IT: America demands Chivalry and I refuse. They are annoyed, but don't declare war.
We get the Knights Templare and enter our Golden Age. I first build the University.
Turn 5 (700 AD)
IT: Rome finishes the Statue of Zeus!
Turn 6 (710 AD)
IT: France and the Inca sign peace. France finishes Sun Tzu.
Turn 7 (720 AD) Science to 60%. PP still in 1.
IT: Printing Press comes in. University->Leo.
Turn 8 (730 AD) We have Printing Press at first and the other tribes haven't got a tech over us![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
France and the Maya have money and are willing to pay a maximum price for PP. So I wait for a tech to pop up, maybe longer. I go all out Banking (100% gives it in 9 turns). The ideal situation would be to have Banking or PP at monopoly.
IT: The ROP with the Maya is cancelled.
Turn 9 (740 AD)
IT: The Maya start Copernicus. We get our first crusader.
Turn 10 (750 AD) France has Astronomy as well. I don't think that we have a shot at Copernicus and the Maya and France still want to pay max prices for PP. So I don't trade.
IT: America finishes Sistine.
Turn 11 (760 AD)
Turn 12 (770 AD) I renew our incense for horses and iron deal. We need the Maya as trade partners imho.
Turn 13 (780 AD) We renew the wines deal with the Inca for 44 gold.
IT: The Maya finish Copernicus.
Turn 14 (790 AD)
IT: We get our 2nd crusader.
Turn 15 (800 AD) Banking in 2. If we get it at first, I would sell this around instead of PP. Banking is probably one of the AI's next techs to research. I would keep PP to ourselves, while researching Democracy at max (until the moment has arrived that the AI appears to research it). We could get Shakes! Regarding selling techs: by checking every turn if the AI wants to pay full price we can see if they are researching it. The prices will drop when they have invested in it.
The French and Maya are still willing to pay full prices for PP.
I thought about disbanding the archers, but they upgrade to TOWs! We could have switched off research as well. I'd say that that would have been a valid option as well. But I don't think that max research is wrong.
Knights Templar in 5. We are going 50% science towards Printing Press. I raise it to 90%, because I don't like to go to min science after we invested in it already. We lose 38 gpt and have 1016 gold. PP in 8.
Turn 1 (660 AD) France and the Maya have Education.
IT: The Great Library has become obsolete.
turn 2-4 (670-690 AD)
IT: America demands Chivalry and I refuse. They are annoyed, but don't declare war.
We get the Knights Templare and enter our Golden Age. I first build the University.
Turn 5 (700 AD)
IT: Rome finishes the Statue of Zeus!
Turn 6 (710 AD)
IT: France and the Inca sign peace. France finishes Sun Tzu.
Turn 7 (720 AD) Science to 60%. PP still in 1.
IT: Printing Press comes in. University->Leo.
Turn 8 (730 AD) We have Printing Press at first and the other tribes haven't got a tech over us
France and the Maya have money and are willing to pay a maximum price for PP. So I wait for a tech to pop up, maybe longer. I go all out Banking (100% gives it in 9 turns). The ideal situation would be to have Banking or PP at monopoly. IT: The ROP with the Maya is cancelled.
Turn 9 (740 AD)
IT: The Maya start Copernicus. We get our first crusader.
Turn 10 (750 AD) France has Astronomy as well. I don't think that we have a shot at Copernicus and the Maya and France still want to pay max prices for PP. So I don't trade.
IT: America finishes Sistine.
Turn 11 (760 AD)
Turn 12 (770 AD) I renew our incense for horses and iron deal. We need the Maya as trade partners imho.
Turn 13 (780 AD) We renew the wines deal with the Inca for 44 gold.
IT: The Maya finish Copernicus.
Turn 14 (790 AD)
IT: We get our 2nd crusader.
Turn 15 (800 AD) Banking in 2. If we get it at first, I would sell this around instead of PP. Banking is probably one of the AI's next techs to research. I would keep PP to ourselves, while researching Democracy at max (until the moment has arrived that the AI appears to research it). We could get Shakes! Regarding selling techs: by checking every turn if the AI wants to pay full price we can see if they are researching it. The prices will drop when they have invested in it.
The French and Maya are still willing to pay full prices for PP.
I thought about disbanding the archers, but they upgrade to TOWs! We could have switched off research as well. I'd say that that would have been a valid option as well. But I don't think that max research is wrong.
I think max research on Democracy and FA is worth trying for. Shakespeares would be big if we can nab it. Getting shakespeares early would really help us.
If we do with that plan, building a few workers to merge in after we get it might work well. Just build a worker when we have max food.
If we do with that plan, building a few workers to merge in after we get it might work well. Just build a worker when we have max food.
Aggie
Deity
microbe: we want to conquer the world, not fly to Space 
6thGenTexan
King
It looks like I'm up now but I need to be skipped. I'v got company in town and would not get a chance to play until Monday.
Aggie
Deity
ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan--skipped
betazed------up
Greebley-----on deck?
homeyg
Microbe
Aggie
6thgentexan--skipped
betazed------up
Greebley-----on deck?
homeyg
Microbe
betazed
Seeking...
- Joined
- May 9, 2003
- Messages
- 5,224
IBT: French finish Leonardo. Damn! Mayans start JS Bach.
810 AD: PP to Maya for MT, 176G and 11Gpt. Not teh ideal but we will lose all the prebuild shields. JSBack due in 11 turns. Sell PP to Joan for 20Gpt.
820 AD: We get Banking. Start on Demo. Due in 12.
830 AD: zzz
840 AD:
850 AD: French starts Magellans.
860 AD: Tikal finishes JsBach.
Ach a cascade. How can they finish it in 3 turns, otherwise!!!! Banking to France for Astronomy and 26gpt and 170G. Banking to Maya for Navigation 20g and 12 gpt. Switch production to Magellans Voyage. Due next turn.
870 AD: We get Magellans of course. Start on a bank.
880 AD: zzz
890 AD:
IBT: Maya demands Territory map and 47 gold. Eh! i back down and give it to the, We are making more moeny that thant from them now.
900 AD: Our GA ends. Demo is still due in 5 turns. I think we can make mucho $$$ and techs from trading that tech.
Sorry guys,
I got hung up on not wasting those shields and had to take some suboptimal trading decisions. But we were supremely unlucky in not getting either of those wonders. They went to a cascade.
I will attach the save soon.
810 AD: PP to Maya for MT, 176G and 11Gpt. Not teh ideal but we will lose all the prebuild shields. JSBack due in 11 turns. Sell PP to Joan for 20Gpt.
820 AD: We get Banking. Start on Demo. Due in 12.
830 AD: zzz
840 AD:
850 AD: French starts Magellans.
860 AD: Tikal finishes JsBach.
Ach a cascade. How can they finish it in 3 turns, otherwise!!!! Banking to France for Astronomy and 26gpt and 170G. Banking to Maya for Navigation 20g and 12 gpt. Switch production to Magellans Voyage. Due next turn. 870 AD: We get Magellans of course. Start on a bank.
880 AD: zzz
890 AD:
IBT: Maya demands Territory map and 47 gold. Eh! i back down and give it to the, We are making more moeny that thant from them now.
900 AD: Our GA ends. Demo is still due in 5 turns. I think we can make mucho $$$ and techs from trading that tech.
Sorry guys,
I got hung up on not wasting those shields and had to take some suboptimal trading decisions. But we were supremely unlucky in not getting either of those wonders. They went to a cascade. I will attach the save soon.
Aggie
Deity
I didn't expect to get a wonder betazed.
ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan
betazed
Greebley-----on deck
homeyg------up
Microbe
ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan
betazed
Greebley-----on deck
homeyg------up
Microbe
Aggie
Deity
Yeah, I'm sorry that you got this legacy from me without explanation I'm not having the best of weeks (a lot to do, makes me lose concentration).
I'm not having the best of weeks (a lot to do, makes me lose concentration).
