[NFP] AI crazy about Science

[Archon_Wing]

Hmm, guess the AI has regressed.

 

[Aristos]

Hmm, guess the AI has regressed.

It clearly has, no doubt about it. How they managed to achieve that, I don't know... I have some ideas, but reckon that they are speculative. Obviously, they have hard times learning the Soren lesson: create game systems that an achievable AI can manage, and only THEN write the AI. NFP, especially, is the complete opposite of that abandoned principle.

 

[Pietato]

The AI was steadily advancing until this latest patch.

 

[Aristos]

The AI was steadily advancing until this latest patch.

I am not sure about that. Can you give me an example of where the AI was steadily advancing? To me, before the last patch, it was still:

+ Giving my any luxury, in any situation, for 1 GPT
+ Sending one cavalry against my MG army
+ Flying kites but not planes
+ Not building any sort of navy
+ Making a mess out of district placement
+ Building wonders or civilian units while under siege and with no army left
+ Building SPs everywhere with absolutely no clue nor chance to defend them against my spies
+ Not building SV accelerators even if drowning in resources
+ etcetcetcetc

The last patch made things worse, that's for sure. Now one of the few attractive modes (Corps), breaks the resource development AI... again, how did they manage to do that, I don't know.

 

[aieeegrunt]

I am not sure about that. Can you give me an example of where the AI was steadily advancing? To me, before the last patch, it was still:

+ Giving my any luxury, in any situation, for 1 GPT
+ Sending one cavalry against my MG army
+ Flying kites but not planes
+ Not building any sort of navy
+ Making a mess out of district placement
+ Building wonders or civilian units while under siege and with no army left
+ Building SPs everywhere with absolutely no clue nor chance to defend them against my spies
+ Not building SV accelerators even if drowning in resources
+ etcetcetcetc

The last patch made things worse, that's for sure. Now one of the few attractive modes (Corps), breaks the resource development AI... again, how did they manage to do that, I don't know.

Turn off all modes and RF and GS; the AI seems to at least be able to manage an economy and build up infrastructure better. It still doesn’t seem to build up an army or use it well unfortunately.

At least with the old system the AI doesnt squander all it’s strategic resources and then have none to support it’s units, because all it needs is one or two improved copies

It’s possible the AI behavior wasn’t updated to reflect the new system in GS where strategic resources are consumed when building units.

 

[Infixo]

Well… that escalated quickly
https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/commen...urce=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

 

[DizzKneeLand33]

I personally take pride in being a Rando, and my fellow rando MrRadar probably does as well.

 

[Pietato]

I am not sure about that. Can you give me an example of where the AI was steadily advancing? To me, before the last patch, it was still:

+ Giving my any luxury, in any situation, for 1 GPT
+ Sending one cavalry against my MG army
+ Flying kites but not planes
+ Not building any sort of navy
+ Making a mess out of district placement
+ Building wonders or civilian units while under siege and with no army left
+ Building SPs everywhere with absolutely no clue nor chance to defend them against my spies
+ Not building SV accelerators even if drowning in resources
+ etcetcetcetc

The last patch made things worse, that's for sure. Now one of the few attractive modes (Corps), breaks the resource development AI... again, how did they manage to do that, I don't know.

It is well documented on these forums that each patch until the latest brought AI combat improvements.

 

[goatdeer]

It bothers me that this is the content that Firaxis gives us when they promise a better AI.
Every time a community update was released and stated 'AI improvements' in the patch notes, I always got excited, as Firaxis is able to make some really neat adjustments to the AI's behavior. More than modders can do, due to limited access. Now it turns out they have only added a couple lines of code, without proper testing. You don't have to be an experienced modder in order to do this and still improve the AI more than they did. It makes me doubt the other 'AI improvements' they have done during the NFP updates, like the naval game.

I may sound like a sourpuss, but it's just really saddening that this is what they come up with. I'm really enjoying the new civs, new wonders, new city states and also most of the game modes. But the AI improvements are a letdown and probably caused by the fact they've done releases on a monthly basis. I also expected something more of the last April patch I guess.

Let's pray they take a couple of more months of testing and finetuning the game. Release one more patch that only resolves the silly (AI) errors and leave the game like it is.

 

[Aristos]

It is well documented on these forums that each patch until the latest brought AI combat improvements.

Is it? My impression is that it was always a contested debate, not a foregone conclusion, and in my experience, there was almost no improvement. One example: going from zero air force to 2 fighters doing nothing may seem like an improvement to many, but is it? Not to me.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Giving my any luxury, in any situation, for 1 GPT

Not that I bother but that can make sense of they don't have amenity problems, or it's a duplicate. Sounds much more questionable if that's their last copy.

I sell excess luxuries for anything, usually.

I don't usually see most of the other issues because the game is over by then, though I suppose that's its own problem.

 

[Aristos]

Not that I bother but that can make sense of they don't have amenity problems, or it's a duplicate. Sounds much more questionable if that's their last copy.

I sell excess luxuries for anything, usually.

I don't usually see most of the other issues because the game is over by then, though I suppose that's its own problem.

No, because I can collect any amount of different luxuries, giving me a considerable yield boost to all my cities, and therefore an advantage over them for almost free. Bad play.

AI trading in general should be tied to diplomacy stance, of course, but also to general strategy and dynamic game conditions (i.e., is this player winning or with a considerable advantage? etcetc).

 

[Archon_Wing]

No, because I can collect any amount of different luxuries, giving me a considerable yield boost to all my cities, and therefore an advantage over them for almost free. Bad play.

AI trading in general should be tied to diplomacy stance, of course, but also to general strategy and dynamic game conditions (i.e., is this player winning or with a considerable advantage? etcetc).

I mean I guess, but like I said I also sell duplicate luxuries at w/e prices too. Yea it could give them an advantage but Amenities aren't really that big of a deal and this isn't a 1v1 anyways where their gain is always your loss, especially when the human player is usually not the leader for a long while.

Also I can't duplicate this. Is this early game? Loading up save files has them outright refusing if it's their only copy, and can't buy any for 1 gpt. I managed to get Scotland's 3rd coffee for 2 gpt.

 

[Linklite]

[They] refus[e] if it's their only copy, and can't buy any for 1 gpt. I managed to get Scotland's 3rd coffee for 2 gpt.

That's my experience. If anything, Ibgenerslly find it too hard to trade with the AI. They refuse even ridiculously generous terms at times, even ones that would basically win the game for them.

 

[Aristos]

I mean I guess, but like I said I also sell duplicate luxuries at w/e prices too. Yea it could give them an advantage but Amenities aren't really that big of a deal and this isn't a 1v1 anyways where their gain is always your loss, especially when the human player is usually not the leader for a long while.

Also I can't duplicate this. Is this early game? Loading up save files has them outright refusing if it's their only copy, and can't buy any for 1 gpt. I managed to get Scotland's 3rd coffee for 2 gpt.

I never said it was their only copy. And yes, it goes on for the entire game, so it is even worse in the late game where inflation only should already dictate a much higher price.

 

[kaspergm]

I agree with Aristos on this matter, the trade AI is definitely either bugger or - if working like intended - extremely poorly designed since the last patch or two - I don't recall exactly when this happened. Using the "Quick deals" UI mod really has made it clear to me how off the AI is in evaluating trade deals. It actually seems like the gold price you have to pay for (excess) luxury resources from the AI goes down as the game progresses, so that around mid-game I can buy luxes at 1GPT + a few pennies for each lux resource from the AI, while the AI will generally pay me 9 GPT for each of my luxes if they are not too hostile with me.

Not only is the fact that AI pays about 8 times more than they demand from their own resources problematic, but selling a lux at 1 GPT is essentially giving it away for free once the game reaches renaissance or industrial era - I'm normally netting several hundred GPT at this point, so giving away 1 GPT has literally zero impact on my economy.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I never said it was their only copy. And yes, it goes on for the entire game, so it is even worse in the late game where inflation only should already dictate a much higher price.

Correct, You said:

Giving my any luxury, in any situation, for 1 GPT

That would not discern between any copy or original. But that's false, because they don't sell their original copy for any price really.

And I can't really duplicate this in my saves. Though it does seem too low and it is clear that the AI is extremely undervaluing duplicate luxuries which also may explain why they're so awful at improving luxuries in general.

 

[Vargas1]

I think there was a bug in an earlier version where the AI would sell luxuries for 1 GPT, but that is no longer the case. It might be that @Aristos is using a mod that still has the bugged version? In my current version at least, the AI won't sell their original luxury copies at all and won't sell additional copies for 1 GPT - I can usually negotiate pretty good deals with them (they're still not exactly the best traders in the world) but it's not completely brainless.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I've gotten a sale for 2 gpt but that was in a pretty late game save (t200+)

 

[Aristos]

I think there was a bug in an earlier version where the AI would sell luxuries for 1 GPT, but that is no longer the case. It might be that @Aristos is using a mod that still has the bugged version? In my current version at least, the AI won't sell their original luxury copies at all and won't sell additional copies for 1 GPT - I can usually negotiate pretty good deals with them (they're still not exactly the best traders in the world) but it's not completely brainless.

No mod but UI enhancers (and yes, I know what I am talking about mods ), game is up to date of course, just finished the Gaul game a week ago (Deity, easy SV as usual), and each Ai was selling me their extra luxuries for 1 GPT plus coins. In the late game. My cities were all 6-7+ amenities, and they were huge (largest population in the world by far with some 11 cities).

And like @kaspergm states, they pay for your extra luxuries 9 GPT +...