Airliner shot down over disputed part of Ukraine

[Timsup2nothin]

Oh, the russian martyr syndrom ! How original ! I nearly didn't see this one coming, no, really.

You may notice from the way I use the pronoun 'we' that I am not Russian. Given my nationality (US citizen by birth) and experience (yes I was born into, engaged in, and in fact won the cold war) it would be very easy to join a 'the Russians are inherently evil so even when they just do the same things we do they make those things bad' chorus. I just choose not to.

 

[Akka]

You may notice from the way I use the pronoun 'we' that I am not Russian. Given my nationality (US citizen by birth) and experience (yes I was born into, engaged in, and in fact won the cold war) it would be very easy to join a 'the Russians are inherently evil so even when they just do the same things we do they make those things bad' chorus. I just choose not to.

You certainly have adapted yourself well enough to their debating tactics in any case, using whataboutism, supposed russophobia, attempts at making two opposed things look like the same and feigned ignorance.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You certainly have adapted yourself well enough to their debating tactics in any case, using whataboutism, supposed russophobia, attempts at making two opposed things look like the same and feigned ignorance.

Just because you happen to agree with everything bad that is said about Russia doesn't mean there isn't some Russophobia going on...though I tend to look at it as 'no kettle, I am not blackism'.

I was part of the greatest 'economic pressure for the express purpose of causing distress in and the eventual destruction of a rival' gambit of all time. I have no regrets and my conscience doesn't even twinge over it. But when people want to sneer at some country, even Russia, for using economic pressure as if no one had ever heard of such a thing I do laugh at the hypocrisy of it.

That economic pressure was backed by the greatest concentration of destructive force ever put in the control of one man. I was part of that too, again with no regrets. Intimidation? Stock in trade. Threat of violence, backed up by having demonstrated the will to use it, forcing other nations to bend to our will? Stock in trade. When people who benefited directly or indirectly from that point out someone else doing it on a relatively minor scale. Hilarious.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Reduce the complexity of your comment please. Your intended audience may not understand it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Reduce the complexity of your comment please. Your intended audience may not understand it.

Okay.

Everything the Russians are being accused of here...been there did that...to the Russians (soviets) and don't regret it. So if they are now doing it too, and to a much lesser degree, I can't complain.

Since pretty much everyone (except the soviets) benefited from what I was part of no one else should complain either, in my opinion.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Okay.

Everything the Russians are being accused of here...been there did that...to the Russians (soviets) and don't regret it. So if they are now doing it too, and to a much lesser degree, I can't complain.

Since pretty much everyone (except the soviets) benefited from what I was part of no one else should complain either, in my opinion.

What you were part of, may I ask?
US has won cold war but began to loose democracy in process. Russia lost cold war but is slowly winning sanity and healthy governance.
What we are witnessing now is just the continuation of cold war scheme nourished by certain circles within the weakened US democracy...

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Talking of airplanes. Allegedly Americans had flew a drone from Germany to Crimea where its control was taken over and it was seized by Russia sometime ago. Anybody knows more on the story?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

What you were part of, may I ask?
US has won cold war but began to loose democracy in process. Russia lost cold war but is slowly winning sanity and healthy governance.
What we are witnessing now is just the continuation of cold war scheme nourished by certain circles within the weakened US democracy...

You can ask...cold war. Operator on a monumentally expensive weapon system. Trying to maintain parity in such monumentally expensive weapon systems strained the Soviet economy, magnifying the internal conflicts that come along with any continent spanning union. Maintain pressure until those conflicts blow the enemy apart with no shots fired.

Key elements...

You have to be able to produce monumentally expensive high powered weapon systems at a phenomenal rate yourself so that keeping up is enough of a strain. We did.

You have to be a dangerous enough nut job that the other side can't just let you get ahead for fear of being baked. We are. Being the country that lobbed nukes at Japan just to see how they work helped.

As you note we are not exactly basking in the afterglow of victory here. It would not surprise me if we never recover from the cold war either. The conflicts in our own continent spanning union are getting pretty hard to manage around.

However I don't see anything like a 'cold war scheme' currently in play. The US, apparently out of habit, spends more on defense than the rest of the world combined, but no one seems interested in trying to keep up so the only economy being hurt by it is ours.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Wolfowitz doctrine? That and the likes is what I am talking about...

True USSR was spending 40% on army budget but was that enough to bring it down? I doubt it if an extreme abuse doesnt do the job in KLDR. There are many other factors you should consider.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Wolfowitz doctrine? That and the likes is what I am talking about...

True USSR was spending 40% on army budget but was that enough to bring it down? I doubt it if an extreme abuse doesnt do the job in KLDR. There are many other factors you should consider.

Wolfowitz is a nut job...but there isn't any concerted effort to collapse the government of a major world power in current US policy that I can see. Trying to 'democratize' little countries against their will is a much different thing. Some tactics might be similar, but the overarching strategy is different.

As to the specific breaking points you mention...without that 40% military budget grinding everything down those 'breaking points' would have just been manageable crises. That was the point. Every nation has crises like that. Nations that span huge territories and encompass widely diverse ethnic and religious groups have more than a fair share, so no one has to cause them. Under the economic strain of the cold war there was no way for the USSR to manage the crises they were naturally going to have, and eventually one came along that broke them. Done deal.

 

[Kyriakos]

 

[Tahuti]

Fortunately, Dutch media hasn't carbon copied the Ukrainian story of a purposeful terrorist attack.

 

[r16]

this is the thing how Americans and the like get away with many things they do . There's never a consistency in "defense" ; people all over the web are having fun with the "news" that a Su-25 was trailing the 777 even if it would have no hope of climbing to the altitude in the first place . Could have been freakin' easy to make this a damnation for the Ukranians , even if the vast majority of them are people just like the Russians . Just 15 minutes of some serious brainstorming and the Russians would have as Su-27 ops as credible as the twitter accounts that claimed victory for the rebels ; never minding an Ukranian BUK firing and retreating , target willingly provided by Malaysian Airlines . Once Russians in Kimchi , the Westerners will simply have fun at the expense of them like bulls get Red cloth waved at them .

keeping at a supposed Russian audience .

this image

purporting to show the mechanics of the event is one of the things that make aviaition afficinados laugh . By using a 707 instead of a 777 and an EF-111A for the Su-25 . But then what the Russians might be implying ? Maybe something like it was American blackboxes made in the 2000s to replace the capability lost with the retirement of the Electronic Fox ? Perhaps of the kind the U-2 had in 1960s ? Which would receive the radar waves and just wait the fraction of a moment to radiate a stronger wave then the reflection that was going back to the radar set after echoed by the skin of the U-2 ? So that the operator (machine or man) would ignore the weak and true to accept the strong and false ? To assume the U-2 was further away then it actually was ? So that the BUK people would spot the Ukranian Su-25 at -say- 6000 meters and fire . The Missile being an automaton would have evidenced no surprise at the Su-25 climbing like an homesick angel (and actually going backwards, too ) until reaching an altitude 10000 meters . The Missile would also ignore further weak signals which are like slowing and diving ; those got to be chaff deployed by the Su-25 . And not the actual Frogfoot in a stall turn down . The target is right there , the Malaysian airliner . MH17 on the 17th , packed with AIDS researchers and kids and guys and gals who have nothing to do with the Ukrainian-Russian issues .

and what does it achieve ? Just for starters how about every single Russian being involved in this mess and ignoring their guaranteed support to less fortunate people . Just say the Syrians are stretched to the limit and failed to spot the ISIL moving into attack a gasfield ; 700 people were either killed fighting or executed on the spot . To the Russians : The Anglosaxons will never see you as pardners in their to-be-everlasting exploitation of the world . Either play that game in full or get out .

Either accident by pro-Russian rebels with a weapon they couldn't use safely or a US conspiracy to achieve what? Making an internet gag of Russia?

well , internet lols are good enough in the world of 2014 ...

 

[Daw]

Meanwhile, it's 6 days since the US gov rep claimed they have satellite images picturing the exact spot the launch was made from, and the images are still not shown. Tomorrow it'll be a week, and I will not trust a single pixel in the images they will present (if any) because within a week I think I could myself erase any trace of a missile trail and draw another (and nicely convincing) one from any given location should it be Snizhne, Torez, Luhansk, Donetsk, Kiev or the Red Square itself, using nothing but MS PaintBrush.

Also the UK guys received the recorders yesterday. Out of Russian previous experience with crashed planes and their recorders, the whole procedure from the moment recorders are found till the conclusion is officially made takes a 2-5 days depending on the recorders/data condition. Let's see how long it will take UK specs to just extract the data and hand it over to the Netherlands for analysis, provided that Malaysians reported the recorders themselves were in unharmed.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

Meanwhile, it's 6 days since the US gov rep claimed they have satellite images picturing the exact spot the launch was made from, and the images are still not shown. Tomorrow it'll be a week, and I will not trust a single pixel in the images they will present (if any) because within a week I think I could myself erase any trace of a missile trail and draw another (and nicely convincing) one from any given location should it be Snizhne, Torez, Luhansk, Donetsk, Kiev or the Red Square itself, using nothing but MS PaintBrush.

Also the UK guys received the recorders yesterday. Out of Russian previous experience with crashed planes and their recorders, the whole procedure from the moment recorders are found till the conclusion is officially made takes a 2-5 days depending on the recorders/data condition. Let's see how long it will take UK specs to just extract the data and hand it over to the Netherlands for analysis.

Doesn't Russia have any satellite capabilities left? The event was pretty close to you and since you continue to maintain 'alternative' theories, perhaps some evidence, photos, satellite pictures could be shown? No? Just some diagrams and crude graphics?! We'll be waiting for more evidence on the assassination attempt on Putin

purporting to show the mechanics of the event is one of the things that make aviaition afficinados laugh . By using a 707 instead of a 777 and an EF-111A for the Su-25 . But then what the Russians might be implying ?

Perhaps an attempt for a Mig-23/27?

 

[Daw]

Doesn't Russia have any satellite capabilities left?

I don't know. But at least Russia does not claim it has the images. The MoD did say on 18.07 they have some radar data contradicting the UA story, and that the data has been submitted to the UNSC (or was it OSCE? Need to check the news log for the authority name). I know you are likely to not believe a single word of whar the Russians say (and I myself don't readily believe many things, too), but I was understandably unable to visit either MoD or UNSC to verify that in person.

continue to maintain 'alternative' theories

I continue to maintain nothing. But as long as it all is about "likely" vs. "hardly", and all that based on not much more than personal beliefs and sympathies, any theory is as good to maintain as any other

 

[r16]

.. be waiting for more evidence on the assassination attempt on Putin

Perhaps an attempt for a Mig-23/27?

all Russian warplanes are twin engined nowadays ; ı tend to think the Ukrainians would also do likewise . Wikipedia lists them as former users . EF-111 is specific , the 707 hides the thing . Anyhow newspapers and the like are not exactly savvy enough to make a difference anyhow ; and this is the thing how one counters the specific argument above .

 

[Thorgalaeg]

It might be an attempt for a Su-24. But it is a Raven as clear as the ring of a bell. it is usual to see in the news this sort of things that make us aviation entusiast laugh. Average reporter have not the slightiest idea on aviation obviously.

 

[r16]

well pointed out ; also helps that the image maker might have supposedly misheard or misread the Su-25 and googled for 24 and found the 111 , which is the original VG Strike aircraft and so on .

 

[red_elk]

Doesn't Russia have any satellite capabilities left? The event was pretty close to you and since you continue to maintain 'alternative' theories, perhaps some evidence, photos, satellite pictures could be shown? No? Just some diagrams and crude graphics?!

I posted report of Russian defense ministry just yesterday I believe... oh, it's 12 pages ago already. There are satellite pictures, but IIRC at the moment of alleged missile launch there was a US satellite over the area, but no Russian ones. So the pictures only show Ukrainian Buks in the area, which according to Ukrainians weren't there and couldn't attack the plane.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...g-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1