Al Sadr's 'defeated' militias:

[Erik Mesoy]

Where are the other 1.1 million bodies?

Somewhere in Iraq? Decomposing, burned, buried, piled into mass graves the size of one swimming pool every 400 km, and generally not rising up as zombies and demanding to be counted, I'd guess.

 

[Oerdin]

So what's happening guys? 'Last throes', uh, again...?

It's always the same posters making the same uninformed claims.

 

[Merkinball]

Somewhere in Iraq? Decomposing, burned, buried, piled into mass graves the size of one swimming pool every 400 km, and generally not rising up as zombies and demanding to be counted, I'd guess.

Erik. I love you dude. But

 

[Ecofarm]

It's always the same posters making the same uninformed claims.

And always the same people claiming that ZERO violence is the expectation.

Brennan and Redralph are the Batman and Robin of terrorist apologists, but you? What are you, aquaman? Lame.

 

[RedRalph]

Am I Batman or Robin? Who's Den Valdron? I am Cleo!? and the rest? Who are you? the Mutley of the US cheerleaders?

 

[brennan]

Brennan and Redralph are the Batman and Robin of terrorist apologists, but you?

That's pretty good coming from Mr Who Cares About Dead Somali Kids?

You do realize how wrong you are with this statement? History is rife with examples of where fighting continued although one side had apparently 'thrown in the towel'.

If you need specific examples, I will be more than happy to provide many for you in order to educate you on the issue.

Other examples of people trumpeting victory a little early? Go ahead, although i'm not sure how you expect it to change my mind. Wasn't it you that said he was surrendering because he didn't want to die? That was a freakin month ago; are you telling us he's now turned suicidal, or are you going to admit you were talking out of an inappropriate orifice?

Where are the other 1.1 million bodies?

Buried? Burned? In a country with a completely screwed infrastraucture it seems reasonable to think that a lot of bodies have been interred wherever seemed appropriate: in gardens and backyards for example. I seem to recall there's a Muslim thing about burying bodies quickly after death (rather than waiting what could be a week for someone at the local morgue to come pick up the corpse).

Considering all 32K of those doctors only serviced 25% of the population, having 17K serve everyone is still better.

Patroklos, can you verify this assertion:

Yes, i've seen that one popping up a fair bit. And I suspect it's a load of bull.

 

[Oerdin]

And always the same people claiming that ZERO violence is the expectation.

Brennan and Redralph are the Batman and Robin of terrorist apologists, but you? What are you, aquaman? Lame.

No, I have no expectation that zero violence is possible. Its not possible even in the best of times but my time in Iraq proved to me that there are very deep divides in that country and support for sectarian militias runs very deep. People who claimed guerrillas have been defeated instead of just doing what guerrillas always do when faced by superior forces (namely lay low and look for easier targets) are fooling themselves. Nothing fundamental has changed and the groups all know the Americans can't maintain the escalation for much longer so they're bidding their time attack targets of opportunity and once the foreigners are reduced in numbers they'll make their moves.

 

[Patroklos]

Other examples of people trumpeting victory a little early?

I am still waiting for you to point out who said this. Hell, in the relevent threads I went out of my way to point out the Iraqi Army was not attacking Sadr's center of power. We were talking about the battle of Basra, not the entire insurgency. You ability to willfully confuse yourself is amazing

Yes, i've seen that one popping up a fair bit. And I suspect it's a load of bull.

Again, you want to me to verify the Shia and Kurds did not recieve government medical services? Seriously? Really, seriously? Is this where you deny he didn't intentionally horde for his army/sell medicine required by his populous for weapons/luxuries?

Are you familiar with the Oil for Food (also medicine) program, and how it was not used to buy food or medicine in the amounts it could have due to corruption?

I am curious, do you think the Swamp Arabs were getting their monthy checkups at the same time they central government was intentionally machine gunning them and starving them to death?

 

[brennan]

I am still waiting for you to point out who said this. Hell, in the relevent threads I went out of my way to point out the Iraqi Army was not attacking Sadr's center of power. We were talking about the battle of Basra, not the entire insurgency. You ability to willfully confuse yourself is amazing

You were talking abut Sadr 'throwing in the towel'. You went to some pains to insist that Al Sadr had been forced to surrender in just a few days worth of fighting... and here we are a month later.

Again, you want to me to verify the Shia and Kurds did not recieve government medical services? Seriously? Really, seriously?

Yes please.

If it helps, here's a 2001 US State Department report on Human Rights abuses in Iraq, section 2, part c: Freedom of religion.

c. Freedom of Religion
The Constitution provides for freedom of religion provided that it does not violate "morality and public order;" however, the Government severely limited freedom of religion in practice. Islam is the official state religion.
The Ministry of Endowments and Religious Affairs monitors places of worship, appoints the clergy, approves the building and repair of all places of worship, and approves the publication of all religious literature.
More than 95 percent of the population are Muslim. The (predominantly Arab) Shi'a Muslims constitute a 60 to 65 percent majority, while Sunni Muslims make up 32 to 37 percent (approximately 18 to 20 percent are Sunni Kurds, 13 to 16 percent are Sunni Arabs, and the rest are Sunni Turkmens). The remaining approximately 5 percent consist of Christians (Assyrians, Chaldeans, Roman Catholics, and Armenian Orthodox), Yazidis, and a small number of Jews and Mandaeans.
The Government does not recognize political organizations that have been formed by Shi'a Muslims or Assyrian Christians. These groups continued to attract support despite their illegal status. There are religious qualifications for government office; candidates for the National Assembly, for example, "must believe in God" (see Section 3).
Although Shi'a Arabs are the largest religious group, Sunni Arabs traditionally have dominated economic and political life. Sunni Arabs are at a distinct advantage in all areas of secular life, including civil, political, military, and economic. Shi'a and Sunni Arabs are not distinct ethnically. Shi'a Arabs have supported an independent country alongside Sunni Arabs since the 1920 Revolt, many joined the Ba'th Party, and Shi'a formed the core of the army in the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq War.
The Government has for decades conducted a brutal campaign of murder, summary execution, and protracted arbitrary arrest against the religious leaders and followers of the majority Shi'a Muslim population (See Sections 1.a., 1.d., and 1.g.). Despite nominal legal protection of religious equality, the Government has repressed severely the Shi'a clergy and those who follow the Shi'a faith. Forces from the Mukhabarat, General Security (Amn Al-Amm), the Military Bureau, Saddam's Commandos (Fedayeen Saddam), and the Ba'th Party have killed senior Shi'a clerics, desecrated Shi'a mosques and holy sites, and interfered with Shi'a religious education. Security agents reportedly are stationed at all the major Shi'a mosques and shrines and search, harass, and arbitrarily arrest worshipers.
The following government restrictions on religious rights remained in effect during the year: Restrictions and outright bans on communal Friday prayer by Shi'a Muslims; restrictions on the loaning of books by Shi'a mosque libraries; a ban on the broadcast of Shi'a programs on government-controlled radio or television; a ban on the publication of Shi'a books, including prayer books and guides; a ban on funeral processions other than those organized by the Government; a ban on other Shi'a funeral observances such as gatherings for Koran reading; and the prohibition of certain processions and public meetings that commemorate Shi'a holy days. Shi'a groups report that they captured documents from the security services during the 1991 uprising that listed thousands of forbidden Shi'a religious writings.
In June 1999, several Shi'a opposition groups reported that the Government instituted a program in the predominantly Shi'a districts of Baghdad that used food ration cards to restrict where individuals could pray. The ration cards, part of the U.N. oil-for-food program, reportedly are checked when the bearer enters a mosque and are printed with a notice of severe penalties for those who attempt to pray at an unauthorized location.
Shi'a groups reported numerous instances of religious scholars being subjected to arrest, assault, and harassment in the past several years, particularly in the internationally renowned Shi'a academic center of Najaf. In 2000 AI reported that the Government deported systematically tens of thousands of Shi'a (both Arabs and Kurds) to Iran in the late 1970's and early 1980's, on the basis that they were of Persian descent. According to Shi'a sources, religious scholars and Shi'a merchants who supported the schools financially were the principal targets for deportation. After the 1991 popular uprising, the Government relaxed some restrictions on Shi'a attending the schools. However, the revival of the schools appears to have exceeded greatly the Government's expectations, and led to an increased government crackdown on the Shi'a religious establishment, including the requirement that speeches by imams in mosques be based upon government-provided material that attacked fundamentalist trends.
Authorities continued to target alleged supporters of Grand Ayatollah Al-Sadr during the year (see Sections 1.a. and 1.g.). The Government neither acknowledged nor investigated the reported arrest and execution in February and May 2000 of 36 religious school students.
The Government consistently politicizes and interferes with religious pilgrimages, both of Iraqi Muslims who wish to make the Hajj to Mecca and Medina and of Iraqi and non-Iraqi Muslim pilgrims who travel to holy sites within the country (see Section 2.d.). For example, in 1998 the U.N. Sanctions Committee offered to disburse vouchers for travel and expenses to pilgrims making the Hajj; however, the Government rejected this offer. In 1999 the Sanctions Committee offered to disburse funds to cover Hajj-related expenses via a neutral third party; the Government again rejected the offer. Following the December 1999 passage of U.N. Security Council Resolution 1284, the Sanctions Committee again sought to devise a protocol to facilitate the payment for individuals making the journey. The Sanctions Committee proposed to issue $250 in cash and $1,750 in travelers checks to each individual pilgrim to be distributed at the U.N. office in Baghdad in the presence of both U.N. and Iraqi officials. The Government again declined and, consequently, no Iraqi pilgrims were able to take advantage of the available funds or, in 2000, of the permitted flights. The Government continued to insist that these funds would be accepted only if they were paid in cash to the government-controlled central bank, not to the Hajj pilgrims.
Twice each year--on the 10th day of the Muslim month of Muharram and 40 days later in the month of Safar--Shi'a pilgrims from throughout the country and around the world travel to the Iraqi city of Karbala to commemorate the death there centuries ago of the Imam Hussein. The Government for several decades has interfered with these Ashura commemorations by preventing processions on foot into the city. In 1998 and 1999, violent incidents were reported between Iraqi pilgrims on one side and Ba'th party members and security forces enforcing the ban on the other. In 2000 security forces opened fire on persons who attempted to walk from Al-Najaf to Karbala (see Section 1.g.). During the year, there were no reports of violence during the pilgrimage; however, the Government reportedly imposed travel restrictions.
The Government also has sought to undermine the identity of minority Christian (Assyrian and Chaldean) and Yazidi groups.
The Special Rapporteur and others reported that the Government has engaged in various abuses against the country's 350,000 Assyrian and Chaldean Christians, especially in terms of forced movements from northern areas and repression of political rights (see Section 2.d.). Most Assyrians live in the northern governates, and the Government often has accused them of collaborating with Iraqi Kurds. In the north, Kurdish groups often refer to Assyrians as Kurdish Christians. Military forces destroyed numerous Assyrian churches during the 1988 Anfal Campaign and reportedly tortured and executed many Assyrians. Both major Kurdish political parties have indicated that the Government occasionally targets Assyrians, as well as ethnic Kurds and Turkmens, in expulsions from Kirkuk in order to attempt to Arabize the city (see Section 2.d.).
The Government imposes repressive measures on Yazidis (see Section 5).

NB: I Hope that helps, but I don't see anything in it about Shia's being routinely denied access to doctors .

 

[MobBoss]

Wasn't it you that said he was surrendering because he didn't want to die? That was a freakin month ago; are you telling us he's now turned suicidal, or are you going to admit you were talking out of an inappropriate orifice?

One. I never said he surrendered. I said he called a ceasefire in Basra because the tide was turning against him there. Two, is every instance of militia activity in Iraq now attributable to Al Sadr, cause last I checked his wasnt the only one in Iraq.

 

[JollyRoger]

Retreat!!! Cut and run from your quotes from only a month ago!!!

 

[brennan]

One. I never said he surrendered. I said he called a ceasefire in Basra because the tide was turning against him there.

You said he called it off because he didn't want to die. Is there some reason you're not being quite so dramatic now...a month later... when his militia are still fighting?

Two, is every instance of militia activity in Iraq now attributable to Al Sadr, cause last I checked his wasnt the only one in Iraq.

No just the activity involving

Shia militia fighters

in Sadr City

a Baghdad stronghold of radical Shia cleric Moqtada Sadr.

because

US and Iraqi officials have blamed such attacks on rogue elements from the Mehdi Army, a militia loyal to Moqtada Sadr.

It's all in the OP.

 

[MobBoss]

You said he called it off because he didn't want to die. Is there some reason you're not being quite so dramatic now...a month later... when his militia are still fighting?

Please show me in the linked story where it says it is his militia doing the fighting? Al Sadr was again calling for a cease fire just last Friday, and he certainly doesnt have the only shia militia in Iraq. While it is likely that it might have been his militia, the operation could very well have been another militia and not Sadr's.

US and Iraqi officials have blamed such attacks on rogue elements from the Mehdi Army,

Uhhhh. If they are 'rogue elements' doesnt that mean they are not following Al Sadrs' orders anymore and are acting on their own accord?

rogue (rg)
n.
1. An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person; a scoundrel or rascal.
2. One who is playfully mischievous; a scamp.
3. A wandering beggar; a vagrant.
4. A vicious and solitary animal, especially an elephant that has separated itself from its herd.
5. An organism, especially a plant, that shows an undesirable variation from a standard.
adj.
1. Vicious and solitary. Used of an animal, especially an elephant.
2. Large, destructive, and anomalous or unpredictable: a rogue wave; a rogue tornado.
3. Operating outside normal or desirable controls: "How could a single rogue trader bring down an otherwise profitable and well-regarded institution?" Saul Hansell.
v. rogued, rogu·ing, rogues

Thus if they are indeed a rogue element, as the OP alleges, what makes you think they are acting on Al Sadrs' orders?

It's all in the OP.

 

[brennan]

Please show me in the linked story where it says it is his militia doing the fighting?

It implies it quite strongly, and it would be consistent with his orders:

Last week Moqtada Sadr told his supporters that while they should continue "resisting" what he called the US "occupation" of Iraq, they should not fight Iraqis.

Casualties mount in Baghdad clash

It seems to me that the continuation of the violence seems to have resulted from Iraqi and coalition forces not really keeping up their end of the ceasefire from a month ago.

 

[MobBoss]

It implies it quite strongly, and it would be consistent with his orders:

Rofl, apparently the OP wasnt enough and you had to scramble.

Surely you understand that implying =/= verification.

And Al Sadr called for a cease fire since his comments last week. Rogue elements would be acting on their own....not Al Sadrs orders.

It seems to me that the continuation of the violence seems to have resulted from Iraqi and coalition forces not really keeping up their end of the ceasefire from a month ago.

Thats because the Iraqi and Coalition forces never agreed to any cease fire. Al Sadrs cease fire was a one sided declaration - from his side and no one elses. It was self-imposed by Al Sadr himself....not part of any negotiation.

 

[brennan]

Rofl, apparently the OP wasnt enough and you had to scramble

OMG! There was pertinent information omitted from the OP! My case is in ruins.

Surely you understand that implying =/= verification.

I don't recall saying it did.

If these *ahem* 'rogue elements' are coming under attack from forces that do not recognise the ceasefire, what are they supposed to do? Write a strongly worded letter of complaint? Surely you'd stick up for the right of a man to fight back if attacked? Incidentally, it seems the ceasefire was instigated under pressure from the (bad, wicked, evil) Iranians.

By the way, why the sudden reluctance to trust US and Iraqi officials?

 

[Den Valdron]

You want me to verify that the Saddam's heath services didn't serve the Shia and Kurds? Seriously?

Yes. Seriously.

Acknowledging that for a period of time, in the northern and southern no-fly zones, Saddam's forces had no authority and no power in sections of the country, and diminished authority.

However, even in that case, that doesn't necessarily mean that there were no doctors, nurses, physicians, clinics, hospitals, etc. Only that they were not under the control of Saddam Hussein. They were still Doctors in Iraq providing services.

During the 'no fly zones' period, Saddam Hussein's rule still extended over a substantial portion of the country. Prior to the no fly zones his rule extended over the entire country.

You have made an assertion that in Saddam's Iraq 100% of the physicians and health services were reserved to the 25% (or whatever) of the population that were Sunni.

Considering all 32K of those doctors only serviced 25% of the population, having 17K serve everyone is still better.

That is a testable proposition. It can either be demonstrated to be true, or demonstrated to be false. You are either right or you are wrong. If you are right, then you will be able to back up the claim. If you cannot back up the claim... then what is it worth? Nothing.

It's not a trap. It's not an attack. You've said something, I've simply asked you to back it up. If you can't, I won't take your assertion as anything more than unfounded. If you prove it, fine. If you go looking and find that it's not exactly as you said, but that there was gross inequality, or that there were complicated things going on, then fine, we both learn something.

It is a reasonable question, and I am seriously asking it.

 

[MobBoss]

I don't recall saying it did.

You earlier stated they were Al Sadrs forces.

If these *ahem* 'rogue elements' are coming under attack from forces that do not recognise the ceasefire, what are they supposed to do?

Please..for once, read your own damn OP. It references a coalition CHECKPOINT coming under attack from shia militia.

Exactly who is coming under attack there, hmmmm?

 

[BasketCase]

You have made an assertion that in Saddam's Iraq 100% of the physicians and health services were reserved to the 25% (or whatever) of the population that were Sunni.

<snip>

That is a testable proposition. It can either be demonstrated to be true, or demonstrated to be false. You are either right or you are wrong. If you are right, then you will be able to back up the claim. If you cannot back up the claim... then what is it worth? Nothing.

Instead of sitting on your ass and waiting for Pat to cough up evidence to back up his claim (as I and many other CFC'ers usually do), how about jumping on the Web and looking for some yourself? Because, unless his claim is proved definitely false, it is not worthless--it is unknown.

I did a little cursory browsing before writing this, and I did find a few remarks about "corruption" in Saddam's health care system--written by Amnesty International, of all people--but no really specific "smoking gun" that shows definite bias in Saddam's system. So it's clearly possible that Saddam did indeed restrict quality health care to the favored.

However, it's not going to be easy to find out. Saddam had a habit of causing people who got too nosy to disappear. And if he did practice bias with his health care system, he certainly did not make the news public because that would have whipped the Shiites into a rage. Bad for maintaining control.

 

[Ecofarm]

Am I Batman or Robin?

I think you know.

Spoiler :

"Holy evidence, Batman! To the denial cannon! Arm the semantic scrambler!"