ALC 17: No Better Shadow Game

[Welnic]

As a complement to the current ALC, I am going to try playing a shadow game without the BetterAI. I will be waiting until after Sisiutil plays a round and then try to duplicate his actions. I will try to keep the games close to each other, though at some point they will inevitably diverge, since that is actually the point.

Since I will be playing a round behind, I am not going to consider this a spoiler thread. But if I do run into to something that hasn't come up in the real game I will put that in a spoiler tag, so you won't have to worry about having this thread spoil the real deal.

For our first screenshot we can see the blue circle sitting comfortably where it belongs under our settler. For those of you wondering about why the graphics look different, I'm running Blue Marble, which is graphics based on NASA satellite photos. Once I got used to the more subtle difference between plains and grassland I have really liked playing with it.

As part of the BetterAI, the actual ALC game is running the BetterAI New Handicaps. This removes some of the more artificial enhancements that the AI gets. For monarch one of these is the AI starts with a worker. I had someone (thanks AlanH!) go into WB for me and add the workers back in so that this would be a true monarch level game with the original AI. If for some reason you don't want to run with the BetterAI you should start with this save.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/93671/Sisiutil_BC-4000_NoBetter.CivWarlordsSave

 

[Sisiutil]

This is a very cool experiment. I look forward to seeing how our games turn out and diverge. The way you're posting the game means it won't be a spoiler, so I can actually come in here and follow it. Cool!

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Blue Marble is the coolest ever.

... make all the units ginormous, imo.

I frequently play "SD":

 

[Welnic]

Well the timing was perfect, I sat down and there was the first round of the ALC ready to be played. I jumped right in, wondering when the first noticeable divergence would happen. The suspense did not build for very long.

Different hut popping on the second turn. Not what I would expect. Since BW was done I started on Agriculture. Sent that scout on a clockwise tour around the NE.

Then Ragnar finds me. And my hut on the turn before the border popped.

Notice that the score is 45 - 45, instead of 66 - 39.

Once my scout was finished and Moscow was at pop 2, I started on a worker. My choices ranged from working a plain and a grassland forest which produced a worker in 13 turns and finished AH in 16, to working two flood plains which meant a worker in 18 turns and finished AH in 14. I went with the fast worker, but thinking about it now finishing them at the same time would have been best. It takes much longer to farm a flood plain than pasture the cows.

In 3190 the score is 115 - 104, instead of 115 - 97. Ragnar hasn't founded Hinduism yet, and Buddhism was founded later.

I haven't made it down to Ragnar's digs yet as that scout has had some lion issues.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/93671/No-Better_BC-3190.CivWarlordsSave

 

[Harbourboy]

What are you going to do when you encounter an incomparable diversion, such as the loss or gain of a city? How will you decide what action to take?

 

[Molon Labe]

I also played a shadow game, mainly for my own amusement and to try out Monarch level. I'm on a Mac, so I'm not using Better AI. I've made it further along than you and Sisiutil and will probably have to throw in the towel. I don't think I'm ready for Monarch yet.

What is interesting is I also popped the hut for Bronze Working. It makes me wonder if the random scripts for popping huts isn't so random after all.

 

[Validator]

What is interesting is I also popped the hut for Bronze Working. It makes me wonder if the random scripts for popping huts isn't so random after all.

Actually the random number seed is included in the save game, so as long as you don't do anything to throw the RNG sequence off you should get the same result every time. Of course I'm assuming that you also popped the hut on the second turn. If you got BW from it later then that would be unusual.

 

[Welnic]

The RNG, as Validator said, is fixed when you play unless you have the "New Random Seed on Reload" option turned on. So I would expect to pop the same thing from a hut every time. It really surprised me to pop a tech instead of gold like Sisiutil did. So I checked it out with the various versions of Civ that I have.

On a Mac, with both PPC and Intel chips, with both the original Sisiutil save and the NoBetter save, I popped BW. On a PC, without the BetterAI loaded, I popped BW for both saves. With the BetterAI loaded I popped gold on the original save, and a map on the NoBetter Save.

So I will probably look later and see if I can figure out what is going on. The AI could be popping or not popping huts on their turn with the BetterAI, that could explain things. With the NoBetter save the AIs have a worker and maybe that further changes their popping habits.

 

[Welnic]

What are you going to do when you encounter an incomparable diversion, such as the loss or gain of a city? How will you decide what action to take?

I'm not sure yet. It is kind of a hard problem. It would probably be better just to have one person doing both games, but this way the project gets a lot more exposure by riding on the ALC coattails.

There are also decisions about whether to go for various wonders. The BetterAI is supposed to pursue those with more vigor, so that will tend to scare Sisiutil away from some of them, so should I be going for those even if that is a big deviation? And in preparing for war, since the BetterAI is better at that, should my prewar buildup be the same as Sisiutil, or should I be going earlier?

Plus the fact that at this part of the game the AI in my game is in better shape, as the extra worker is a huge plus that will cancel out the extra smarts for quite a while.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

The AI is screwing with the random numbers due to its different actions and starting units. It doesn't matter if they're popping any huts. Random numbers for ALL actions in Civ4 come from the same list.

 

[Welnic]

So the random numbers involved when the AI decides what to research come out of the same RNG string as everything else? After I asked that question I see that is exactly what you said, no clarification needed. But I posted anyway.

 

[BARBEERIAN]

I too popped Bronze from the north hut on my PC playing a shadow game.

 

[Welnic]

Things are going fairly smoothly over here in NoBetter land. The tech advantage of popping BW is still holding up, Mysticism has been researched and Fishing has 10 turns to go at 50% with + 1 gpt. St. Petersburg is working on a monument. Moscow has completed a barracks and one chariot and has 3 turns left on a granary. I have two workers working on roads to the NE. I have 4 times the amount of cash!

I got confused about the order of things and built my settler after building/whipping 6 warriors and then whipped a worker. I think that has helped my research and lowered my military expense since Moscow at the moment has 5 pop. I'll start on a settler and then whip another worker next.

The score over here are Ragnar: 279, Mehmed II: 275, and No-Better: 165.
Compared to Mehmed II: 246, Ragnar: 240, Sisiutil: 131.

I wished I had looked at the saved game before I played, I don't know what I was thinking. I am way behind on hooking up copper. Maybe some of the axe horde that descends on Ragnar will be standing in little carts behind horses.

The tech state of the world in 2470BC. Popping BW has really set me up.

Over here Ragnar already has 3 cities. The first one he put SE instead of NW.

There are spoilers in the saved game.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/93671/No-Better_BC-1300.CivWarlordsSave

 

[PMabey]

judging by your careful cropping of the screenshots, i'd say you've met someone else.

 

[pigswill]

I also have joined the legion of Shadow Players (Unimproved AI). Whizzed up to 1000bc, popped BW, lost hut to viking scout etc.
I could post updates here (suddenly spoilered of course), start another shadow thread (but how many do we need?) or not bother posting updates at all.

 

[Welnic]

I think that if you want to post in here that would work fine, especially if there are significant differences. I'm not sticking to Sisiutil's game as tightly as I planned, at least on the last round, but I'll try to do better. I think one person doing that is probably enough, other people should just play their own game. I'm only using spoiler tags for things that haven't showed up in the real thread at the time of posting.

If you do play a shadow game without the BetterAI, you should grab the starting save from this thread since it has the extra worker the AI normally starts with on monarch.

 

[Welnic]

Over here, the Oracle was built on the other continent.

So Ragnar still has archers, not longbows. Both Mehmed II and Ragnar have Alphabet, and I don't have the techs to see if they have can research Monarchy, which I'm sure they don't have yet since they are not in HR.

Ragnar discovered Confucianism, it is in his 4 cities but nobody else.

In civilization size I'm hopeless.

I'll have 3 axemen next turn. In 2 turns I'll discover IW, so maybe I'll be hooking that up. It looks like a pre-cat rush is still a go over here.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/93671/No-Better_BC-0565.CivWarlordsSave

 

[jerVL/kg]

So Raggy does have iron....

 

[tycoonist]

So Raggy does have iron....

well spotted...

 

[pigswill]

Defeat (or at least game abandoned) .

Spoiler :

Basically stayed put; got 7 cities established; got liberalism, got GM from economics, good relationships with neighbours on continent. Invaded Brennus about 1400ad with gren and cannon (weakest and most primitive of the AIs), got wiped out by cavalry. Abandoned the game at that point.