ALC Game #10: India/Asoka

[Sisiutil]

Sisiutil: its worth remembering that Ragnar is level pegging on the power chart so don't get too distracted by wiping out Tok. I'd go with knocking out a couple more core cities (Kyoto, Satsuma) then seriously consider switching your attention to Ragnar.

A good point, in which case Steel/Cannons makes sense as the next tech, since Ragnar has Grenadiers now, thanks to me. I do tend to get focused on wiping out a target even when they're no longer a viable rival. It might be best to do some switching. Ragnar also has a couple of nice wonders, and taking some Viking cities would alleviate cultural pressure on the Japanese ones. We'll see how it goes.

UncleJJ, thanks for the reminder about Representation and the UB--I'd nearly forgotten about that. I think I'll go Steel -> Nationalism -> Representation, then get on the track for Physics--if that makes sense to everyone? On your shadow game--did you or anyone else mention the Pacifism/Caste System idea before in this thread? It would have been nice to attempt that earlier in the game as you did--of course I would have had to get Philosophy a lot earlier!

A couple of other factoids: I whipped a Taoist monastery in Tokyo, and with the loss of the Taoist holy city, Tokugawa has converted back to Buddhism.

I think I'll do a few Grenadiers/Trebs as I mentioned, but get a Galleon going in Bangalore. Once the reinforcements come out, I'll load up the Galleon with some Buddhist missionaries. The GM can go on the Caravel outside of Karachi, and will go through Spain (with whom I don't have Open Borders) on his way to London.

 

[Phrederick]

I wouldn't bother getting a galleon for missionaries unless the distance to the other continent is more than 3 turns. You won't be building missionaries very fast (better to devote the high-production cities to something else I think), so 2 caravels should be plenty.

 

[DarkFyre99]

Sisiutil,

Some things to consider:

1) In Warlords, the greatest danger in a war is your enemy vassaling themselves to your friend. I learned the hard way about the dangers of waiting too long before accepting/demanding your enemy's capitulation. If your enemy vassals himself to another, you will immediately find yourself at war with his master. Not a good situation to be in.

2) The big unknown right now is Toku's vassal. At some point in your war, his vassal agreement will be null and void (either because Toku obviously can't defend his vassal, or its obvious that Toku isn't strong enough to defend himself). Either way, I believe that you'll still be at war with Mehmed when he breaks the vassalage. If he decides Ragnar is strong enough to protect him...

3) Don't get locked in stone in wiping out Toku. He may decide to hide behind Ragnar's skirts as well.

4) Vassals do have their advantages. They give +1 happy to each of your cities, and you can request that they research techs for you, for trade later. (one good reason to make sure they're not left behind tech-wise)

 

[flamingzaroc121]

In Warlords, the greatest danger in a war is your enemy vassaling themselves to your friend. I learned the hard way about the dangers of waiting too long before accepting/demanding your enemy's capitulation. If your enemy vassals himself to another, you will immediately find yourself at war with his master. Not a good situation to be in.

except in 2.08 the masters think about if they want to accept a vassal and they wont accept if you're their

for example, if England and China are at war and England and Egypt are close buddies, Egypt wont accept China as their vassal unless the wanted to declare war on you any way

 

[Rashkaar]

I am fairly certain you will automatically be at peace if your target of war vassalises to your friend, however someone will need to test that out.

 

[wioneo]

I am fairly certain you will automatically be at peace if your target of war vassalises to your friend, however someone will need to test that out.

That is wrong, and I really hope that you are right about that Flamingzaroc. I have been wasting a lot of turns ruining the reputations of my potential vassals now.

 

[aelf]

AFAIK, if you and your friend are at war with the same guy and that guy capitulates to your friend, there would be an automatic peace. So I think capitulation produces peace. Any other vassal agreement in the context of war would create more war. I don't know if the AI on the new patch is really smarter when it comes to accepting vassals, though, but in the first place I suspect the would-be vassal usually has to bribe the would-be master.

 

[patagonia]

A good point, in which case Steel/Cannons makes sense as the next tech, since Ragnar has Grenadiers now, thanks to me. I do tend to get focused on wiping out a target even when they're no longer a viable rival. It might be best to do some switching. Ragnar also has a couple of nice wonders, and taking some Viking cities would alleviate cultural pressure on the Japanese ones. We'll see how it goes.

Make sure Toku's properly crippled before turning your attention to Ragnar. He's switched to Buddhism using the AIs standard ploy to try to make you like him more and end the war, but it'll also make Ragnar much happier with him too. As long as you remain Friendly with the Viking, he won't accept Toku or Mehmed as a vassal (in my 2.08 experience), but once you switch your attention you'll get dogpiled by the rest of the continent. Better to leave Ragnar the only effective threat once that occurs than to risk a Japanese counterattack while you're pursuing the Vikings.

If you're going to take on Ragnar ASAP after making peace with Toku, I'd make sure Japan has no horses first, denying them knights or possibly cavalry in the process. That'll mean either capturing or razing Nara and the size 9 city at the end of your yellow arrow, but they're en route for your stack appearing on Ragnar's borders to that shouldn't be too much of a detour. If you're lucky, Toku may even agree to capitulate at that point which saves you the hassle of mopping up his tundra and ice cities, which are never going to do much for your economy anyway.

If I remember correctly, you don't need to worry about cultural pressure from a vassal's cities in 2.08 either - any you've captured will have all their tiles available to work.

 

[cabert]

I am one of the "pessimistic residents" (although I only said that peaceful was lost,and you went to war, so )

In the situation you have here, i would try to go for diplomatic. It would require some missionaries or war overseas, and capitulating japan.
Should be easy, but not totally in the bag yet.
Watch out for biggest population.

About the war plan, i'd finish memhet first, then go as far as needed in japan for him to capitulate.
Steel is a good war tech, the best I know in fact.

 

[Phrederick]

If I remember correctly, you don't need to worry about cultural pressure from a vassal's cities in 2.08 either - any you've captured will have all their tiles available to work.

You mean that as soon as you get 10 culture in a city captured from a vassal, you own all 20 tiles? I really doubt that, although I have yet to get a vassal in 2.08.

 

[patagonia]

You mean that as soon as you get 10 culture in a city captured from a vassal, you own all 20 tiles? I really doubt that, although I have yet to get a vassal in 2.08.

Just checked an autosave where I'd captured an enemy capital before capitulating them and all of it's tiles are workable. The city had about 1000 culture in the autosave I checked, but that was around 1800AD and I can't imagine that'd be enough to overcome more than 5000 years of rival culture. The other cities bordering that vassal have the tiles on those borders available too.

I think this is one of the changes they made to the vassalage system in 2.08, along with introducing a +2 defensive pact modifier with the vassal.

 

[UncleJJ]

UncleJJ, thanks for the reminder about Representation and the UB--I'd nearly forgotten about that. I think I'll go Steel -> Nationalism -> Representation, then get on the track for Physics--if that makes sense to everyone? On your shadow game--did you or anyone else mention the Pacifism/Caste System idea before in this thread? It would have been nice to attempt that earlier in the game as you did--of course I would have had to get Philosophy a lot earlier!

I wrote an explanation on what I would do at 640 AD. Here is the relevant part.

Probably the best use he can make of the Spiritual trait is to periodically switch caste system with slavery and simultaneously pacificism (needs Philosophy) with either theocracy or OR. Once Lahore has grow up and is developed it will be a terrific GP farm. Three clams (with lighthouse) and a rice will give food surplus of 14, enough for 7 scientists in the steady state. But the trick of using the Spiritual trait is to run a lot more scientists while running the caste system and pacificism using food stored in the granary and then when switching back to slavery and OR refill the granary and whip in another building. With a population of 15 Lahore could probably support 10 scientists for say 5 turns = 60 GPPs / turn, starving the city at 6 food / turn while working the clams and rice. Then run zero scientists for 5 turns while recovering the food and working the iron mine, towns, farm and costal tiles. That gives more GPPs over time and uses food more efficiently than running in a steady state. At that rate it should not take long to make several GS for academies or lightbulbing.

The use of Pacificism plus Caste System (periodically) is one of the strongest combinations of civics in the middle ages when it only costs a few hundred GPPs per GP (your next costs 400 GPPs). They are 2 civics I would seldom use in a non Spiritual game but here they better than Philosophical since you can run Caste System without the loss of Slavery (switching every 5 turns or so).

This is the reason in my shadow game that I developed Cuman with farms (at least initially, although it might get cottages once Emanicipation comes around) and why I emphasised fast growth in Lahore with build up of science multipliers... running 10 scientists with Representation and say +100% multiplers is a considerable research boost for 5 turns, giving 600 beakers and also generates 600 GPPs.

The civics switch works best when you have several cities working in parallel since Caste System and Pacificism are global civics. So I would have Cuman, Lahore and Karachi all running many scientists and lots of priests in Delhi. Other cities might run a few scientists or merchants and gradually accumulate GPPs over several cycles to produce a GP.

 

[DarkFyre99]

AFAIK, if you and your friend are at war with the same guy and that guy capitulates to your friend, there would be an automatic peace. So I think capitulation produces peace. Any other vassal agreement in the context of war would create more war.

You might be right, but I've only been in a situation where where my enemy vassals himself to an uninvolved third party. I'm tempted to try it out... but in my current game, my only friend is Gandhi, and I'm not sure he likes me enough to go to war with another Empire, even with a bribe.

*assumes pattented Ikari Gendou pose*

On the other hand, he isn't exactly thrilled with Mao either. That would take care of those two isolated cities wedged between our respective lands, allowing me to concentrate my forces on his core cities on my northern border. Given the cultural pressure I had on my Eastern border, I'm willing to bet that the two cities would soon flip to me.

*assumes Mr. Burns pose*

Excellent...

I don't know if the AI on the new patch is really smarter when it comes to accepting vassals, though, but in the first place I suspect the would-be vassal usually has to bribe the would-be master.

It's only happened once to me with the new patch, but IMO it was a rather shrewd move on the part of the AIs. I managed to hold on to all my core cities, but it was a close thing, and I lost the city close to his border I'd taken previously. I wound up buying peace with half my techs and all my remaining gold (after upgrading all my border guards, of course) and barely managed to bring my troops home in time to beat off his first assault.

I went into the war expecting to seize four cities, get a Great General, a large veteran army, a healthy amount of gold and a tech, and an vassal.

I came out of the war with two cities new, second Great General thanks to the Great Wall, and a small elite army.

(I immediately declared the war a complete success back home, rather than the near disaster it was. Thankfully, my people have short memories when it comes to war. )

The other AI came out of the war with a new city, a Great General, a small veteran army, at least two techs, a couple hundred gold, and a vassal.

 

[salnc]

Just checked an autosave where I'd captured an enemy capital before capitulating them and all of it's tiles are workable. The city had about 1000 culture in the autosave I checked, but that was around 1800AD and I can't imagine that'd be enough to overcome more than 5000 years of rival culture. The other cities bordering that vassal have the tiles on those borders available too.

I think this is one of the changes they made to the vassalage system in 2.08, along with introducing a +2 defensive pact modifier with the vassal.

From the changelog for Warlords 2.08:

Vassal cannot own plots within the city radius of his master's cities unless those plots are closer to his own cities.

 

[DarkFyre99]

You mean that as soon as you get 10 culture in a city captured from a vassal, you own all 20 tiles? I really doubt that, although I have yet to get a vassal in 2.08.

Effectively, yes.

The only time you don't get a tile in your city's fat cross is if that tile is closer to one of your vassal's city. That only happens if the two city's radius overlap. That means that your vassal wil always get the eight tiles immediately around his cities.

Edit:

I'd just like to thank you again, Sisiutil, for these threads. I really enjoy them, and continue to learn from them. I think I'm ready to return to Prince again.

 

[Phrederick]

From the changelog for Warlords 2.08:

That's awesome! That removes a big problem with vassalizing someone; I really like the changes they made.

 

[Honkoid]

Cultural pressure from vassals isn't completely removed. Although the tiles are now owned by you, the vassal's culture is still there and continues expanding, which may lead to revolt in your cities. You can also see that by hovering over the bar under (or over?) the culture bar in the city screen, which shows the chance of revolt if another one's cultural pressure is too high. It is still shown for vassals.

 

[wioneo]

Cultural pressure from vassals isn't completely removed. Although the tiles are now owned by you, the vassal's culture is still there and continues expanding, which may lead to revolt in your cities. You can also see that by hovering over the bar under (or over?) the culture bar in the city screen, which shows the chance of revolt if another one's cultural pressure is too high. It is still shown for vassals.

This is the only bad thing, a city can now unexpectedly go into revolt.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 12: to 1600 AD, Part 1

An interesting if short round. There were plenty of interesting developments, and we have several more decisions we need to make once again.

To start off, I sent the Great Merchant to the other continent on a trade mission. I also decided to leave aside Steel for now and pursue Nationalism and Constitution. Part of the attraction is the Taj Mahal for a golden age: I'm lacking a lot of infrastructure (banks, markets, grocers, libraries, universities, observatories) and a GA would give me a boost in that regard--especially since I plan to run Organized Religion during the GA.

The war with Japan continued, but something alarming happened. As my stack closed in on Satsuma, suddenly, Japanese Grenadiers started appearing! It seems Tokugawa bee-lined to Chemistry after he lost the Liberalism race. That makes sense; if our situations were reversed, I'd be bee-lining to military techs as well. As before, he used them to attack the cities I'd taken from him. He put Osaka under siege, and did some pillaging around Tokyo before I killed the Grenadier and Knight he was using for that.

Strangely, he did not use these wonderful new units to fortify his cities, even one that my stack was sitting next to. The Trebuchets did most of the heavy lifting, my CRIII Axeman earned his next XP and was subsequently upgraded to a Grenadier, and Satsuma was mine:

Let's see what I got for my trouble:

Not too bad--several good infrastructure buildings and two wonders. I did not get much time to enjoy the Great Library, however, as you'll see.

I had the units for my second (northeastern) stack just about ready in most of my cities, so I did a slight civics change:

Yeah, just Theocracy. I decided that I wanted to keep running Bureaucracy in the capital while I focused on Delhi's infrastructure. It would still be enough to give me Level 3 units out of the gate.

I finished researching Nationalism shortly after this and started building the Taj Mahal in Madras. I could have traded Nationalism to Ragnar, but I didn't want him building the Taj on me. He had a Golden Age going on, so I doubted he had a Great Engineer hanging around, and he didn't have marble, but the Taj was becoming a very important part of my strategy and I didn't want to take the chance that he'd beat me to it the way he's been beating me to a lot of other prizes this game.

Meanwhile, I kept dithering over Ragnar and Printing Press. I'd sent the Great Merchant off on a trade mission, so he would not be helping with it. I was reluctant to give Ragnar any more help. Well, this is one time that my dithering paid off:

Yes, good ol' Winnie, obviously on his way to Rifling for his UU, researched Printing Press so I traded with him. It's too bad he isn't keeping better pace tech-wise, because as you can see, I'd have a lot to trade with him, and I'd rather feed him techs than Ragnar. Then again, despite lagging in techs, Churchill is #2 in score, since he has the 2nd largest population, IIRC. So maybe it's not such a bad thing that he's behind in techs.

Obtaining Printing Press revealed that Ragnar had stolen a march or two on me, tech-wise. Specifically, he had Scientific Method and Replaceable Parts! It was time to bite the bullet and do some trading with the Viking:

On the same very eventful turn, I finally, at long last, took Edrine from Mehmed:

The Trebuchets mostly just stripped away the cultural defense. After one suicide Treb attack on the 1 Maceman and 3 Longbows defending the city, the Grenadiers did the rest of the work. I lost one despite 95% odds--yet another Civ IV head-shaking moment--but the majority won and the city was mine.

Also, my Great Merchant finished scouting around and comparing prices for his wares. Madrid had offered 1700, Nottingham and London 1500, but the double-holy city of York offered the best deal:

Yep, 2100 smackeroos, which I put to work on the next round, financing a run on Physics and its free Great Scientist.

On the next turn, I finished researching a key tech:

And, accordingly, changed civics:

Representation for the research boost from specialists, and back to Organized Religion for infrastructure building. Leaving Hereditary Rule required me to do a little whipping in a couple of cities that didn't get Representation's happiness boost, but that helped build infrastructure, which is what I was after.

Something then happened that will affect our decision-making regarding the Forbidden Palace. Tokugawa finished Versailles:

I really think Blake needs to tweak the AI a little more in this regard. The AI loves to build Versailles, a very expensive wonder, even when it will gain little from it--and Japan's at war, and losing, besides! I shouldn't complain too much, however, since I plan on taking that city off of Tokugawa's hands before too long.

Since I now had Printing Press and Constitution, I went to see my old buddy Ragnar yet again:

In some ways it's almost like Raggie and I are playing as a team--he researches one set of techs, I research another set, and then we swap. It's nice to have friends. The tricky part will be keeping him in that category. Anyway, with Replaceable Parts in hand, my Fast Workers started plunking down Lumbermills on several of the forest tiles I've kept for health bonuses.

Mehmed never did break his vassalage agreement with Tokugawa. Or at least, I decided not to wait to see if it would happen:

I razed it, as recommended. Tokugawa might settle there, of course; hey, if we wants to build a Settler instead of a Grenadier, more power to him. And look, I got two more Fast Workers! There was a slow period before Replaceable Parts where all I had them doing was building roads, but now I'll be glad for the extra help. Railroads aren't that far off either.

The demise of the Ottoman Empire took care of the rampant unhappiness in Lahore once and for all. I'm now building up its population after several whippings so it can become my GP farm. I think it would be good to build (or at least start) the National Epic there during the Taj Mahal-powered golden age.

I started moving a stack towards Kyoto. Then Tokugawa got lucky and managed to kill the City Garrison II Grenadier I'd left behind in Satsuma, leaving it defended by two Longbowmen and a Pikeman, who were facing four of his Grenadiers. Oops. Yes, I should have left it better defended, but I'm getting stretched thin, what with having to defend the stack, my border cities, Tokyo and Osaka and some of their tiles, and so on.

So I went to see Tokugawa to see what could be worked out:

He wouldn't throw in Divine Right, not that I cared much since both of its wonders have been built. Even when facing military defeat, Tokugawa still doesn't like to tech trade! Notice how he's back to being Taoist again. He can't make up his mind, this guy. I also arranged a couple of resource trades with him, for GPT. May as well get all I can out of him if we're gonna make nice for a few turns.

Then, in 1600 AD, I won two important races. First, to a tech with a prize:

And to what should prove to be a very useful wonder for me:

Frankly, I was glad to make peace with Tokugawa for a few turns. I prefer having a golden age during peacetime so I can take full advantage of it. During war, WW may make me whip away citizens who should be working all those tiles that are suddenly more productive and lucrative.

The next post will continue with a state-of-the-world update and the presentation of a few decision/talking points. Stay tuned!

To be continued...

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 12: to 1600 AD, Part 2
The State of the World

To start off with, just before ending the round, since I was all flush with cash, I made a quick, informative trade with Churchill:

I'm starting to treat Economics like my world map--a handy bargaining chip rather than something to hoard. I want other civs to adopt Free Market! Not that any of them have yet; but Winnie just switched to Mercantilism a couple of turns back (which is partly what motivated this trade), so there's hope he'll switch before long.

At any rate, as a result of this, I have a complete and up-to-date map of the other continent for us:

I have not sent any missionaries over there yet. I only just built my first Galleon, and I was too busy with infrastructure to bother with missionaries. I wasn't exactly hurting for cash either, but I'll have to get around to it. I'm starting to lean towards a diplomatic victory, in which case spreading the good news of Buddhism might help.

Now here's a look at my continent:

It's a good thing Ragnar is friendly, because I'm still relying on him for passage to my possessions in former Japanese territory. When hostilities with Japan renew (after the Golden Age), I think I should focus on fighting south from Edrine towards Kyoto, opening up passage through the eastern portion of the continent.

Here are the civics I'm currently running:

I'm torn between Bureaucracy and Free Speech. FS would help a lot with the border battles I've got going on (Ragnar keeps farming over mature cottages next to my Japanese cities! ) But Delhi is going to be building Oxford and Wall Street soon. On the other hand, there are several forests around Delhi that I could chop, including one extra one in the fat cross (there are two others). Whaddya think?

Here's the tech situation, vis-a-vis my nearest competitor, Ragnar:

Now, I checked with him, and here's a tech trade that he will agree to:

I haven't taken it. Should I? I'm obviously hoping to be able to get Rifling from Churchill at some point. One really great thing about getting Military Tradition would not just be the ability to build Cavalry, but the ability to build Level 3 Cavalry in any city with barracks and stables. That, I must say, is a change that has made Horseback Riding and mounted units more attractive in Warlords. I also have a couple of veteran War Elephants I could upgrade.

Here are the trade agreements I currently have:

I seem to be avoiding any demerits thus far for trading with all 3 civs on the other continent, but I'll have to see if that remains the case.

Relations:

Hmmm, Alexander has dropped to cautious. Maybe it's time to sell him another old tech for peanuts again. At least Churchill has risen to Pleased. How do you think things bode for a Diplomatic victory? Churchill, at this point, would be my rival. I think I could count on Ragnar's votes, but I'm not sure about anybody else.

The military situation, including how many XPs before the next Great General:

So I'm about halfway to the next one. If I finish off Japan, I'll probably earn him. Especially since Tokugawa has Rifles and will now put up a much tougher fight. Which is why I'm researching Steel for Cannon. I'm glad I waited--if I'd researched Steel at the beginning of this round, it would have taken 12 turns, not the 5 currently required.

Oh, I should mention that I did earn my next Great General early in this round. I teamed him with a Level 3 Horse Archer (I didn't have any Chariots with at least 6 XPs) to get a Med III unit. He's now in Satsuma.

Related to this, the power graph:

Ragnar is out in front, but considering he gained 2 military techs on me this round, that's not too surprising. I've leveled off a little due to losing units and my focus on infrastructure. As I mentioned above, if I get MT from Ragnar I can start pumping out lots of Level 3 Cavalry to get this graph moving in the right direction.

Demographics:

Of course, since I've just started a Golden Age, this graph is even less informative than it usually is. Ragnar is the GNP leader, and well ahead of me in that regard, even though I'm #2 now. Still, for 8 turns at least, I'm #1 in GNP at last!

Top 5 cities and wonders:

If I do go to war with Ragnar, Nidaros would be a definite objective. However, if we decide to pursue a diplomatic victory, I think war with my best friend is a non-starter. I'm coping with the cultural pressure from his borders, and I think I'm starting to catch up and/or overtake him in terms of technology and economy.

Now for some decision-making. First off, I won the race to Physics, so I have a free Great Scientist waiting in Delhi:

As you can see, I could use him to help with Biology--another handy bargaining chip. He'd shave about 1.5 turns off of it if I research it during the Golden Age. Or I could settle him in Delhi; that's 9 research points plus a hammer to help build Oxford and Wall Street. I have another Great Person due in Delhi in two turns, but that could be a Great Scientist, a Great Prophet (Taoist shrine, methinks), or even a Great Engineer. I don't really have a 2nd science city worth an Academy, and I'm reluctant to use him for one just to get additional culture in a border city--seems like a bit of a waste to me.

Other things we should discuss:

Military:

As many of you predicted and recommended, I'm taking a pause in my war with Japan. I very much believe it will have to resume, at least to establish a path to my newly-acquired cities in the south. With Versailles in Kagashima, I think that city is ripe for the plucking as well. Nara has crabs, so it's worth capturing and keeping. Frankly, I could see myself doing one of two things: either reducing Tokugawa to 3 cities in the southern tundra (Yokohama, Izuma, and Matoyama) and accepting him as a vassal, or taking him out completely. Whaddya think?

Beyond that, I'm very reluctant to fight with Ragnar unless he suddenly becomes belligerent. He's been very good for tech trading, and he's the #1 military power. A war with him would be ugly--he'd have units racing all over my many border cities with him.

Research:

Does Steel seem like the best choice at this point? I really think it is. Cannons will give me the edge I need to take down Tokugawa efficiently. I can also build drydocks for more experienced Frigates. The Ironworks will have to wait until Kyoto is in my possession, however, as I think it's the best city for it. I don't see a big need for Rifles--Grenadiers are just fine; I find Rifles to be more of a defensive unit. As I mentioned, I'm hoping Churchill will research that tech and eventually trade it. So after Steel, I think Steam Power and Railroads make sense, to make my units more mobile in the vast empire that spans much of my continent. Or maybe Biology before them, especially if I use the free GS to help with it. Maybe I should even get Biology before Steel? Especially if I'm thinking of a diplomatic victory.

Civics:

As I said, I'm in a conundrum over Bureaucracy versus Free Speech. I'm leaning towards running the former until both Oxford and Wall Street are finished. I'm also hesitant about Free Religion. It would certainly improve relations with Alexander and Isabella for a diplomatic victory, but if Ragnar drops to "Pleased"--yikes. And does anyone think it's too late for the Caste System/Pacifism tactic? Lahore would be quite a good GP farm with that combination, and GPs are still cheap for me--this next one in Delhi will only be my 3rd in the game.

Victory:

Let's start talking about it since the next few rounds will definitely lay the groundwork for it. Domination strikes me as very difficult since my next target after Tokyo is also the most powerful nation around. War with Ragnar would be very ugly. He's been friendly for most of the game and I'm inclined to do whatever I have to to keep him that way. I'd better get a couple of Buddhist missionaries down to his two southern Muslim cities pronto.

Besides, if Churchill can stay ahead of Rangar in population--which, if I trade Biology to him and not to Ragnar, could happen--then Ragnar will vote for me, and he's got to be #3 in population.

The other possibility is Space Race. I think I'd have the territory, research level, and economy for it once Japan is toast. However, it would take longer, giving Ragnar more time to get antsy, especially since I'd have to run Free Religion and lose the religious bonus with him. That's worth +6, and it's what's keeping him friendly.

The other option for Space Race is to finish Toku, then gear up for a conflict with Ragnar. I'd need railroads connecting my border cities by then; I'd want to hit him fast, with at least 2 stacks, taking a couple of cities, absorb his counter-attack, and then take a couple more cities until he's too weak to be a problem anymore. That's much more risky than just running religious civics all game.

But I think, even if I go after diplomatic, that once Toku is done, I should prepare for Ragnar to turn on me. All it would take is for him to convert to Islam.

The saved game file is below.