ALC Game 11: Carthage/Hannibal

[Sisiutil]

Note: Due to "warmonger respect" you'll probably end up with -2 from Kublai for declaring on Shaka and Toku assuming you take them each out in a single war. Much starting and stopping could see that climb unless you can persuade him to join you for the assult on the Japanese. The bureaucracy bonus for his favourite civic will help to keep him sweet for much of the game, but with a large empire you'll want to swap to free speech eventually to beef up all of your towns. Bearing that in mind, a mutual military struggle bonus against Toku or one of the overseas civs is worth considering, as is giving in to any demands he may have in the interests of cultivating a long-term friendship.

Thanks--these are good tips to keep in mind when dealing with Kublai. It will help when he unexpectedly drops by asking for something, that's for sure.

 

[johnny_rico]

With a good REX and mass spreading of buddhism, I think you'd be set up for a quick diplomatic victory. Since you have plenty of available real estate, why is there a need to start a war? Cottage up, expand, and enjoy the peace amidst all the aggression. If someone on the continent founds and converts to another religion, gang up on him. Now, if a few more religions get founded on your continent, you'll have to wonder who the hell is on the one? It certainly doesn't get more heathen than you're current continent.

 

[Sisiutil]

With a good REX and mass spreading of buddhism, I think you'd be set up for a quick diplomatic victory. Since you have plenty of available real estate, why is there a need to start a war?

Tempting, but as with all ALCs, I like to exploit the leader's traits. That plan would leave one crucial and valuable aspect of Charismatic, the cheap promotions, going largely to waste. The idea is to get in some warring in order to utilize that feature. My hope is to have an army of veterans that (thanks to Financial) I'll be able to upgrade with each advance in technology to maintain a late-game peace.

 

[johnny_rico]

Tempting, but as with all ALCs, I like to exploit the leader's traits. That plan would leave one crucial and valuable aspect of Charismatic, the cheap promotions, going largely to waste. The idea is to get in some warring in order to utilize that feature. My hope is to have an army of veterans that (thanks to Financial) I'll be able to upgrade with each advance in technology to maintain a late-game peace.

Aren't you already taking away from the charismatic trait by whipping before exceeding happiness levels? Someone may still declare war on you in which case, you'll enjoy the lower xp for promo's. And I'm not saying you won't or shouldn't declare war throughout the course of this game. I was only thinking that as long as peace existed between this pack of unruly leaders, you shouldn't upset it as long as there is real estate available for growth. If you go to war in the near future, you going to whip further and not work cottages (financial) and grow.

 

[Sisiutil]

Aren't you already taking away from the charismatic trait by whipping before exceeding happiness levels? Someone may still declare war on you in which case, you'll enjoy the lower xp for promo's. And I'm not saying you won't or shouldn't declare war throughout the course of this game. I was only thinking that as long as peace existed between this pack of unruly leaders, you shouldn't upset it as long as there is real estate available for growth. If you go to war in the near future, you going to whip further and not work cottages (financial) and grow.

Early in the game, to get infrastructure and units done, I will whip regardless of happiness levels. In this game, as in the previous one with Asoka, happiness levels have risen so quickly that if I waited to hit them before whipping, I'd hardly be whipping at at all. Which is not a bad thing, but I think it's good to accelerate production early in the game when hammers are harder to come by.

Overall, I agree with the idea of expanding while there's room to do so--that is the plan for the next round, along with a parallel build-up of military infrastructure and units. At the end of it, I suspect I'll be back here to ask if we should go the warmonger route or turtle and go peaceful. I'll do my best to keep relations with all three civs as neighbourly as possible so either option is available.

 

[johnny_rico]

You should really consider using the exploit where you get several units 1 turn from completion and then switch to vass/theo. With barrracks and stables, your NC will come out with 9 XP (3 promotions)!! You can give your pillagers combat 1 & 2 plus shock. That will give spearman a run for their money. Shaka will not be able to make Impi's. You can take that iron away quickly if/when the time comes.

Unfortunately, you'll need a GG to get non calvary to 8 xp but they'll be one victory away from a third promotion.

 

[Sisiutil]

You should really consider using the exploit where you get several units 1 turn from completion and then switch to vass/theo. With barrracks and stables, your NC will come out with 9 XP (3 promotions)!! You can give your pillagers combat 1 & 2 plus shock. That will give spearman a run for their money. Shaka will not be able to make Impi's. You can take that iron away quickly if/when the time comes.

Unfortunately, you'll need a GG to get non calvary to 8 xp but they'll be one victory away from a third promotion.

Oooo, good point. I feel like Homer Simpson: "Promotions... MMMMM..."

Of course, I have to get Theology and Feudalism first.

 

[Ruler]

Why not go to war with Toku with Shaka's help?

I second this kill Toky with Shaka's help let shaka take that crappy thundra and take river for yourself and you make Shaka friend of a lifetime.

 

[a0161613]

I second this kill Toky with Shaka's help let shaka take that crappy thundra and take river for yourself and you make Shaka friend of a lifetime.

It may also be worth remembering, in light of potential conflict with Kublai in the future, that if you get Shaka on your side (ie dont take him out), then his UU is the perfect counter to his Keshik as well as the NC.

I am an advocate of going to war as soon as your stack is ready. the problem being, Toku's holy city (at least) will need cat's to beat down the cultural defences.

I think this is the main reason for heading towards construction (and maybe engineering for treb's) rather than feudalism and theology. While the extra promotions would be useful, it appears that siege weapons should be an immediate concern.

Plus it may be on the route to CoL, which has courthouses which may be useful for reducing maintenance.....

 

[kniteowl]

Hey I just realized, Barracks + Stables + Theology and Vassalage + West Piont (Military Tradition) = 13XP = Instantaneous level 5 units fresh from the city.... Charismatic Cavalry must be quite dangerous LOL... well that's something longterm to aim for. Good thing none of the Russians are Charismatic, or the Cossack would be WAY overpowered because of the easy XP gained for promotions to mounted units.

Btw if your gonna use Knights in the middles ages... Try to build as many NC's as possible and upgrade them because they get free Flanking 1... so you upgraded knights will get a free promotion and are more likely to survive.

 

[Sisiutil]

Something else to consider: where exactly should Iron Hoof go? I was thinking of the forested tile, 1N of the iron, nestled in with all those peaks. It would give me another coastal city--I only have 1 so far (though Golden Clam will be another). Or it could go inland, 1S of the cows--less ocean, more forests, claims the other incense, but some desert and a desert hill.

Which is better, or is there another option I should consider?

 

[johnny_rico]

If you go inland, make sure no coastal squares are in the BFC. No lighthouse means those squares are worth dirt.

 

[Sisiutil]

If you go inland, make sure no coastal squares are in the BFC. No lighthouse means those squares are worth dirt.

Agreed. Hence my suggestion of 1S of the cows if it's inland.

Here's another quickie: how many Workers does everyone think I should have to work these planned 6 cities?

 

[aelf]

Who should that target be? Toku looks very appealing, what with that holy city and all (Wall Street!). But Shaka first still appeals to me. Why? XPs. Shaka will be a relatively easy takedown and a great chance to collect XPs for Charismatic's cheap promotions, and maybe even earn a Great General. Toku will be a tougher target, but conquering Zululand would mean by the time I'm ready to take on Japan, I'll have a stack of promoted veterans. And also, I should have Catapults by then too.

I think experience points are too insignificant to be casus belli. Anyway, consider this: If you attack Shaka, both you and him will suffer some slowdown, while Toku techs ahead. Would you rather face a more powerful Toku with a few veterans later? And you'd have to take him on alone then. If you keep Shaka happy for now and prepare for a later war with Toku, you can better prepare for that war and enlist Shaka's help.

Yes, Kublai is a threat--but so is every other civ around. Of the three neighbours, he's the easiest to get along with, in my experience. In the long term, his traits are not that formidable; if he doesn't strike by mid-game, he's not much of a threat. I'm willing to live and let live... unless he backstabs me, which I will prepare for, and if he does... Consider that if the southern 2/3 of the continent is mine, I can focus my veteran units along the border with Mongolia as a deterrent. I'm already planning on warring more than I originally thought I would be (with these neighbours, can you blame me?). So I'm interested in seeing if I have the diplomatic chops to keep at least one neighbour content with peaceful coexistence.

Sharing a continent with a single Agressive civ is generally not a very good idea. He might want to expand later on, and guess what he would do to achieve that aim. If you want to play peacefully, I suggest you keep another civ around to keep tensions in check. Anyway, killing off half your continent isn't exactly the peaceful way to go about things, is it?

 

[KMadCandy]

... Shaka will trade a tech when half the people he knows (excluding the one who's asking for the trade) know it.... Of course post-Optics when there's contact with more civs, the percentages mean more.

another sidetrack--i assume the 'you are a loser since other civs know this tech already, so you don't have to pay full price' benefit only includes civs that you've met, is that correct?

 

[Elandal]

"peaceful" is a relative term, and in case of Sisiutil means "not killing everyone on the other continent too" I think

 

[Elandal]

If referring to the research cost going down the more civs know a tech then no - all civs are considered. This is due to balance reasons, eg. isolated starts.
And again if referring to AI counting civs for tech trading purposes - the civs you have contact with don't matter, only the civs the AI has contact with.

 

[johnny_rico]

Here's another quickie: how many Workers does everyone think I should have to work these planned 6 cities?

I guess that depends on whether or not serfdom is in your future. As a rule, I think fledgling cities need two workers. You're going to war as well, no. I like to bring a worker along to build roads as I go so cities are close to being connected when captured. Send a worker to build roads along with a cavalry to scout things out before you attack. Newly captured cities usually need only one worker unless you're looking to completely redecorate. You can always find stuff for workers to do so whenever you can slip in a quick worker build, you should.

 

[RobertTheBruce]

I think experience points are too insignificant to be casus belli. Anyway, consider this: If you attack Shaka, both you and him will suffer some slowdown, while Toku techs ahead. Would you rather face a more powerful Toku with a few veterans later? And you'd have to take him on alone then. If you keep Shaka happy for now and prepare for a later war with Toku, you can better prepare for that war and enlist Shaka's help.

I don't think Shaka is ever going to provide much help. He loves to produce units but he just doesn't have the research or production capacity to do anything past the classical era. If you keep him happy now, he will just fade. The Zulu civilization is probably at its zenith and will be much easier to take later. He will probably attack either you or Toku so be prepared for a defensive war. You don't want to take his cities or give the land to Toku right now and he doesn't need to be trimmed down.

I would recommend a continued rex to deny Kublai and Toku a couple of the better city sites and postponing the attack on Toku until catapults are available. With the financial bonus, you should have a good window before he gets longbows to use the NC. With reduced strength and a city attack penalty, NC have a pretty short window as city attackers since the AI prioritizes Feudalism.

Catapults have almost as high a withdrawl chance as a Flanking II NC, better strength against cities, CR promotions, and lower cost so NC are a more a stack defender, cleanup and open field attacker than primary attack unit anyway.

Sending a chariot to explore Kublai's land would help determine how dangerous he might become. It doesn't look like he has good territory so you may be able to choose who to keep as a pet and who to destroy after you take Toku's better cities.

 

[aelf]

I don't think Shaka is ever going to provide much help. He loves to produce units but he just doesn't have the research or production capacity to do anything past the classical era. If you keep him happy now, he will just fade. The Zulu civilization is probably at its zenith and will be much easier to take later. He will probably attack either you or Toku so be prepared for a defensive war. You don't want to take his cities or give the land to Toku right now and he doesn't need to be trimmed down.

Do I rely on an AI for actual military support? No. Do I want to have somebody distract my enemy during a war and take some of the punishment? Yes.

Anyway, from my experience, Shaka is much better at keeping up than Kublai Khan and, often, Tokugawa. But I agree he is less dangerous in mid-game compared to Tokugawa, who is in fact the one who tends to reach a zenith and then fade away. If you wait till he reaches the high point, you'd have a problem. If you wait till he fades away, it might be too late.