ALC Game 11: Carthage/Hannibal

Diplomatic... Currently if you built the UN, Cyrus would be your opponent in the Diplomatic Victory... and HC is also his CLOSE FRIEND, Has +10 positive modifer, while you have +11 Positive modifers... could be a messy vote, you'd obviously get Shaka's and Toku's vote, Medmed and KUbai... if he's still alive would abstain... Assuming if you went for the diplomatic vote right now.

The safest Bet I'd say would be Space Race with Diplomatic in the back pocket... who knows maybe you'd take enough population from kubai by war that you might get enough votes for a Diplo Victory. If your gonna War with Kubai again try to eliminate him... don't vassal him or you'll get negative diplomatic modifers which will decrease the chances of a possible Diplomatic Vistory.

Domination is quite possible... but would be very time consuming and I'd Advive (Sorry if I can't spell) against it.
 
For the record Hannibal is great. I'm playing him for the first time in a game with similar parameters. Great Lighthouse, Temple of Artemis, Cothons and a religion are the way to go in my opinion. I could take or leave the UU. Chariots are better against axeman and come earlier, with less investment.
 
Defensive pacts are a recipe for peace. Enough of those and no war can break out (with you involved) without becoming WW1. Admittedly, it's a double edged sword. You might get pulled into a war you don't want to fight, Serbian-style. But that is quite unlikely to happen, given how afraid AIs are to fight each other (and they would be even more so with the defensive pacts in place). I think you're in a good position to play peacefully from now on... if not for the fact that you're lagging in tech. As it is, it seems the safe way is to take out at least Kublai and catch up by sheer size. A space win would be interesting.

I don't ever want to be discouraging, but I am inclined to agree with what a few have said about not playing to Hannibal's strengths. However, considering the neighbours you have and the religious situation, I can understand why it was difficult to do so. I would really like to see another attempt, but it's too late to restart, isn't it? I guess you should just play on and hopefully demonstrate a game where you can't play to the leader's strengths very much but still manage to win.

PS: Numidian Cavalry looks cool!
 
I don't ever want to be discouraging, but I am inclined to agree with what a few have said about not playing to Hannibal's strengths. However, considering the neighbours you have and the religious situation, I can understand why it was difficult to do so. I would really like to see another attempt, but it's too late to restart, isn't it? I guess you should just play on and hopefully demonstrate a game where you can't play to the leader's strengths very much but still manage to win.

I didn't say the game is lost this time ;)
In fact, I believe sisiutil has a good military option.
 
I didn't say the game is lost this time ;)
In fact, I believe sisiutil has a good military option.

I didn't say that either. Or said that you said that. It's so hard to say for sure that a game is lost in these threads ;)
 
In the last game a loss was predicted, but a comeback followed. I believe that demonstrated that a enough sharp minds can overcome almost any problem.
Thus, it's probably safe to predict a victory in this game too - there's no hole we can't find a way to climb out of :)

This is not to say that the victory wouldn't have been due to Sisiutil. He's playing the game, afterall. But sometimes the advice in the thread does affect the way the game is played, so part of the glory goes to everyone participating in the discussion.


And this game?
I'm a bit sad that Numidians didn't get to see action in their prime, being rather relegated to mopup of obsolete units. But in the end, HAs and thus the UUs based on them are hard to get to use, as they come too early or too late to be available in their prime.
As there weren't that many coastal commerce cities, Cothons haven't done much either. This was partially due to RNG gods - if we don't have strong coastal position, then we don't get much use out of coastal buildings either.
With the above two things (UU and UB weak in this game) considerd, emphasis on the Financial trait looked best way to play Hannibal. And again: RNG gods gave us unruly neighbours, so playing a builder game based on strong economy was out.

It seems that Hannibal and Carthage didn't get much out of their unique properties. At least not yet - there's still building to be done, and Financial certainly will make a GNP-comeback easier.

So, what to do now? I think finishing off Kublai is needed. Or rather, taking the best of the lands, then either going for the finish or cap'ing - that depends on if you want to manage the tundra yourself, or have a vassall to do it. In any case, a bit more land would be nice, making comeback stronger.
And to get better position for peaceful game after that, both Toku and Shaka should participate in that, so that you'll get MMS there. Optionally you can choose one of the two only, then work out a suitable rift between the two and have them go at eachothers' throats, maybe profiting in that business as well.

Victory type? I think aiming for space, with diplomatic option around, would be good. Keep strong enough military for defense (although that seems something you'd do in any case - bigger military than I'd keep around), play with your friends so they stay your friends, improve the land and infrastructure, tech up. If you at some point decide that diplomatic is in the pocket should you just build UN, it's not a big detour from space teching path. I sometimes make that detour if only to pass nuclear ban (and maybe some civics, for as long as I want those civics myself) - I haven't ever seen an AI launch ICBM, but I don't really want to take that chance either.
 
With the above two things (UU and UB weak in this game) considerd, emphasis on the Financial trait looked best way to play Hannibal. And again: RNG gods gave us unruly neighbours, so playing a builder game based on strong economy was out.
It wasn't necessarily, you just have to orchestrate peace more carefully with these neighbours than you would with a bunch of happy peacemongers.

In my shadow game (which I unfortunatley can't upload a replay for as warlords replays aren't a permitted extension), things started fairly similarly with Toku, Shaka and me becoming Buddhist and Kublai the heathen founding Judaism, but the only war I was ever involved in happened very late when Cyrus declared on Toku activating a defensive pact I had with him. A couple of quick bribes to involve Mongolia and the Zulus quickly stopped that from becoming an issue though. The score wasn't stellar (I never led) and finish was rather late (1926), but I figured maxing those wasn't really the purpose in this situation.

Of course, now that war's already started in this game, it's probably going to continue as the diplomatic penalties with Kublai will be fairly severe (due to city razing etc). This means he needs to go down and as the AI loves to spam cavalry it'd be prudent to involve both Toku and Shaka. Land honestly isn't an issue in terms of winning by spaceship as there's easily enough already to cottage, but adding a city or two of Kublai's is always going ito help. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't much matter if one of them takes cities you'd like or capitulates him fairly early in terms of territorial gains made. Once he's their vassal he can no longer declare no matter how much he hates you, provided you keep them on side.

In the current situation I'd get some rifles, cavalry and canon fielded and then declare again, bribing both Shaka and Toku to join the party. That will have the handy bonus of dividing up WW between the three of you and wiping the Mongol out faster. If they'll agree, bribe them to declare before you join in as it'll give them time to get their offensive stacks through your territory and prevent you from picking up an additional -1 for declaring on their friend. Pursue the war to a conclusion (his capitulation to one of the others would be the best outcome diplomatically as it avoids you taking the -1 hit for having a vassal), then with emancipation and financial cottages you'll catch up in tech in no time at all.

==========

Edited to add that as Aelf said, a defensive pact with Toku (and Shaka if he'll agree) would almost definitely keep you safe from Kublai for the remainder of the game. You'll have to judge whether they'll stick to those if you lose the shared religion bonus, but if you've got more land than Huyana better city specialisation will negate any tech advantage he may have with the 10% free religion bonus. The AI also seems inclined to farm over towns once biology hits meaning that it struggles to keep up in the modern era unless significantly bigger than you.
 
Actually now that you mentioned city razing - I don't think vassalling Kublai is a good choice anymore. City razing penalties are eternal as they come (I don't know if they ever go away, but at least not for the first millenium) so it'd be very hard to bring him to friendly state. And vassalls are more useful as their attitude goes up, mainly meaning that friendly vassall will be a good tech trading ally while a pleased one is subject to WFYABTA.
 
Well, it sounds like we're all agreed, then--military techs and take down Kublai. I agree, that seems like the best choice, and I liked the suggestion for getting Toku and Shaka involved. Neither of them are willing to get involved at the moment, however. I'll give it a few turns and we'll see.
 
It seems that Hannibal and Carthage didn't get much out of their unique properties.

In retrospect, I think settling the capital inland was the key problem.

Financial + Cothons cries out for a mega-powerful trade-hub capital with the ToA and the Great Lighthouse (although the latter could be built elsewhere without losing the benefit). Even on larger maps, only two or three cities will ever reap the serious trade profits (but they can be staggeringly huge), especially since GL + Cothon ensures that all of the juiciest routes are reserved for the ToA city.

This way you can have an early game capital that is both profitable (thanks to trade and coastal commerce) and productive (since you need not prioritise cottages, and so can work a couple of hammer heavy tiles and/or make more use of the whip). Throw in the Colossus and bureaucracy, and you can leave the AI in your wake with an awesome mid-game tech rate (at least on a larger map), and without sacrificing your military too much either.

(I've just used Hannibal to win my easiest ever Prince victory; I left the AI so far behind that I never had to trade for a tech after I nailed both Liberalism and Economics first; and it was only my 2nd attempt at Prince-level Warlords).

But, to pull it off, you need a coastal capital with both food and production. Although the site on the sugar wasn't ideal, I wonder if it might have given you an edge, especially as you could have used another city to make use of the remaining sugars. Since you ended up not cottaging the sugars, the coast could have given you a major commerce boost. And even if you hadn't grabbed both wonders, either one would have helped to make Carthage a serious tech-generator in the crucial early-mid game (the ToA is definitely the better one if you have the choice, unless you've got absolutely loads of coastal sites to settle and few AI cities to trade with).

Also, having underused Hannibal's economic advantages, I'm not sure you have made enough of his military ones either. Charismatic is just awesome if you get into wars early on; combat gets easier and cheaper (ie. less units get killed) as your troops fly through the promotions. And, although I've yet to make any great use of them myself, aelf's UU guide suggests that Numidians can be quite effective too.

Nevertheless, having read some of your previous efforts, I'd still be prepared to stake a few :gold: on your managing to win the game from the present position.

I'd probably go for domination. Since I'm totally incompetent where the space race is concerned, maybe I'm not the best one to offer advice... but Cyrus and HC look worryingly advanced and have tons of well-developed cottages (would they really farm over their towns?), and I can't see how you're gonna catch up in time to beat them to the launch unless you can expand quickly and cheaply (in which case you might be better off just going all-out for a military victory).

A couple of other things:

By all means sign the pact with Japan for the time being, but be aware that Toku could backstab the rather pathetic Shaka, leaving you to face the Mongols alone. It's also possible that another civ will attack the Zulu. Signing a pact with Shaka might disuade them, but, equally, it might drag you into a war you really don't need. Whatever, I wouldn't rely on Toku in this case (or in any other, for that matter) and I can see no advantage to a defensive alliance with the weakest civ in the game.

I'm not sure that that Cothon in Leptis will do you any good in the immediate future (though I guess it'd be pointless to stop building it now). You don't seem to have much in the way of trade routes anyway, and the the city doesn't need the health right now. It might also be worth switching to Mercantilism; the free specialists may prove more useful than your meagre trade income.

(Just to clarify, the main advantage from Cothons isn't really that you can get an extra trade route in each coastal city, but rather that the most profitable routes can be concentrated in the cities that can make the best use of them, hence the immense value of the ToA to the Carthaginian trade strategy; to an extent the same applies to the extra routes from the GL. Cothons are probably a waste of hammers if built in weaker cities, unless you really need the health bonus).

Edit: Sorry, too late yet again.
 
I'm definitely in the hawk camp at this point. I really don't see much chance at a win if you stay peaceful from here to the end. The AI is abysmal when it comes to actually building the space ship parts, but I see a real danger here with your current research situation. You've done really well so far keeping up in techs by trading. But that's masked the real weakness of your economy. It looks to me like you might be about to run out of trading options and at that point you'll really fall behind in techs.

To clarify, researching Steel at roughly 20 turns worked out for you because you traded it for 3 techs with a 4th possible. But I don't see many similar situations in future. It doesn't appear that rifling will get you anything in trade. Where do you go from there? Physics then artillery has been suggested and might be a good option if you could research them relatively quickly, but you're currently looking at 19 turns each at break-even. HC already has physics so no trade there. What are the chances Cyrus will have it before you get it? Shaka may be your only trading partner. Steam or Biology might have more trade value, but it depends on what the AI chooses to research near-term. And they would be less valuable to you during your war with Kublai.

For this reason I think you'll need to improve your economy through expansion and Kublai is you're best bet. Those towns around Karakorum and Tiflis look very appealing right now. Also when it comes to actually building the spaceship New Sarai would make an excellent IW city. (Where would you build IW in your current empire?)

There are a couple of things you can do to help yourself get ready.

First of all you should switch civics. Mercantilism is a must IMO. You only have foreign trade routes with HC and he only has 6 cities so you're not going to lose much there. One big plus is that mercantilism is Toku's favorite civic so you'll earn some "wisely chosen civics" points with him which might make him Friendly and in that case I think he would trade you Rifling for Steel.

You can change 1 other civic without getting any additional anarchy, more if you're willing to lose a second turn. The options are:
1. Nationhood for drafting Riflemen. I'm not big on drafting except in emergencies although I know others use it effectively when building an offensive army. I would be concerned though about what the loss of Bureaucracy will do to your economy.
2. Theocracy for the extra XP. Utica can already produce level 3 units thanks to the MI, but if you intend to go to all out military builds everywhere this will have a nice payoff. You will have to give up the OR benefits, but again if you're going into total military buildup mode that shouldn't matter.
3. Vassalage doesn't seem a good option to me. As with nationhood the loss of bureaucracy would be painful, the loss of OR for theocracy would hurt less. As to using both vassalage and theocracy I don't see a real value since none of your cities except Utica would get another promotion out of the second XP boost.
4. Serfdom is an option since your workforce is small and you shouldn't be using the whip any time soon (although you'll need to change back to slavery after you start capturing Mongolian cities).


You have some units that should be upgraded. One side effect of the hammer cost increase of trebs in 2.08 is that the upgrade cost for trebs to cannons has become dirt cheap: 80 gold. Unfortunately you only have 5 trebs left, but you have enough gold in the treasury to upgrade them. Knights can also be upgraded to cavalry for only 110 gold each. If you go to 0% science for 3 turns you can get enough to upgrade all 7. Also Robert E. Lee can be upgraded to cavalry for free.

One problem I noticed is that two of the riverside cottaged tiles at Hippo look like they're about to flip to Japan. They're currently showing 50% Carthaginian. Unless you know that its been trending up you might want to think about Hermitage in Hippo. With marble its only 7 turns.

And your workers need to start building lumbermills instead of fooling around outside of any of your cities fat-Xs.
 
For a bit later in the game flight is also a good tech to have for trades. AIs usually go for Artillery to open Rocketry. Try to trade flight to long term allies or to the other continent's civs, should bring you something in return. Plus, bombers are great deterrents should anyone get the idea to attack you later. The AI never seems to build enough of them, they only go for fighters in my experience and those fighters won't help their advancing stacks. Hopefully it won't come to this though.
 
Having just had a quick look at the save, I'd almost be inclined to forgo any further conflict, more or less in total contradiction of my earlier advice :smoke:

You can sign defensive pacts with Toku, then Cyrus, then Huayna to leave half the world on your side should Kublai get any funny ideas between now and the end of the game. Tellingly, Cyrus is also leader in power which would offer you significant protection, and you've got the advantage of Toku being on your own continent for added security. Kublai and Toku are friendly and Shaka's a non-entity in terms of power, which effectively guarantees you world peace from here on out.

It does, however, leave space as the only viable victory condition, but that's OK as the AI blows in that regard despite being programed to pursue it as a victory condition. To ensure all the modifiers work out, you'll want to stay Buddhist for the remainder of the game, and stay in HR until you've accrued increased defensive pact, trade and open borders boni with HC. Then switch to either representation to turn Cyrus friendly for trade, or US to increase production. In terms of other civics, emancipation, free speech and free market look attractive prospects so I'd be pursuing those techs now at their current discounted rates, with either OR or pacifism as a religious option.

Biology's the tech that'll give your economy the biggest boost since you've got far more farms than cottages and the resulting population explosion will help you out in almost all areas of the game (plus allowing you to cottage over some of the farms). Getting the next 3 universities built to unlock Oxford in Carthage will help a great deal too.

The one drawback with this approach is that it will drop Shaka from friendly to pleased, but should open up Toku for trade before too long and he's a better long-term option. As far as trade's concerned, also don't forget that the price the AI asks for a tech drops markedly once you've put a turn of research into it yourself enabling you to get more expensive techs in exchange for cheaper ones.
 
Cyrus and HC look worryingly advanced and have tons of well-developed cottages (would they really farm over their towns?), and I can't see how you're gonna catch up in time to beat them to the launch unless you can expand quickly and cheaply (in which case you might be better off just going all-out for a military victory).

it's truly sad. in a recent game, gus caesar and i were the only ones left. i'd been in emancipation for a while but changed out of it. when he got the tech, he changed to it...while farming over way more than half of his fully-grown towns!!! makes no sense at all, but i watched it happen, and moused over his workers.

maybe he went to emancipation just for revenge, didn't care about cottage growth and knew he wasn't going to use that aspect. but i doubt it.
 
it's truly sad. in a recent game, gus caesar and i were the only ones left. i'd been in emancipation for a while but changed out of it. when he got the tech, he changed to it...while farming over way more than half of his fully-grown towns!!! makes no sense at all, but i watched it happen, and moused over his workers.

maybe he went to emancipation just for revenge, didn't care about cottage growth and knew he wasn't going to use that aspect. but i doubt it.

And this is the 'better AI' I've been hearing so much about? What on earth is going on there? :confused:
 
Asumming If you switch out of Bureaucracy the amount of breakers you lose to research is:

Base Commerce 64 +50% Commerce = 96 Commerce
96 Commerce * 80% Science = 76.8 Breakers +100% Modifers from Buildings =153.6 Breakers currently from your capital.

Now without Bureaucracy

Base Commerce 64 * 80% = 51.2 BReakers + 100% Modifers from Buildings = 102.4 Breakers

So you lose 50 Breakers (more or less) and compared to your total Breaker Count from ALL Cities which is 300 Breakers (when your running Bureaucracy) 50/300 = 17% (Rounded) so you lose a total of 17% of your research if you stop running Bureaucracy.

But if you receive more then 50 breakers from the cities you capture, then it's worth going to war and temporarily go backwards for a short period of time. I say go for Vassalage as you benefit more from it because of your Charismatic trait, you can also stay with Bureaucracy and still go to war if you choose to.

You Know if you palned to build Westpoint in Utica a while back you would be producing level 5 Cavalry, which could take on, at even odds against Kubai Riflemen about now and you'd only ahve to run one military civic to do so because you already have 1 MI in that city

Barracks + Stables + Both Civics + Westpoint (3+2+4+4) = 13XP for a charismatic Civ which is level 5,

You already have a MI In that city so you only need to run 1 military Civic.

If you decide to Build West Point Right now it'd take 25 turn... it'd be WAY Too Late unless you find a way to rush it.

Nationhood is also a good choice but remember to run it with Theology becuase currently you Population is quite low compared to your high happy cap, so you wont suffer as much from unhappiness if you decide to draft twice from every city for a quick war although you need to research Rifling 1st, unless you can finda way to make Toku friendly and trade for it.
 
And this is the 'better AI' I've been hearing so much about? What on earth is going on there? :confused:

no, my game was with the most recent official warlords patch, which improves the AI in some ways (city placement by a ton for example). but i don't use the Blake's Improved AI Mod that you hear about. i tried it but i can't get it to work with my civ4lerts and advisors that i'm addicted to waaaaaah. some python thingamabobdealie that's completely over my head.

i don't think S uses Blake's mod either.
 
If you want proof that the AI will farm over towns, just automate your own workers some time (I do once it's clear that I'm going to win). Next thing you know, your whole empire is farms, and all the towns are gone ...

edit: I think in options, there's one that's like "automated workers don't farm over towns" or "leave old improvements" or something.
 
^^KMad is right. The patch is using only part of the "better AI".
I watched MM switch from cottages to farm and from farm to cottage for half the game (he was my vassal:cry:)

Sorry, I wasn't clear; I meant the 2.08 improvements, rather than the mod. But, since you mention it, does anyone know if the modded AI still goes insane in that way? And did they always do that, or is it a new 'feature' with Warlords or 2.08?

Sorry also for going OT, but I'm pretty horrifed by this news. I mean, I know the AI can be dumb, but farming over towns and then going for space race?! Do they switch to representation or are they just growing and growing? :mad:
 
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