ALC Game 12: Japan/Tokugawa

[Sisiutil]

All Leaders Challenge Game 12:
Game #12 - Japan/Tokugawa

Pre-Game Thread

Starting Position (this post, below)
Starting Position continued
Round 1: 4000 BC to 2080 BC
Round 2: 2080 BC to 1060 BC
Round 3: 1060 BC to 20 AD
Round 4: 20 AD to 575 AD
Round 5: 575 AD to 1130 AD
Round 6: 1130 AD to 1583 AD
Round 7: 1583 AD to 1658 AD
Round 8: 1658 AD to 1723 AD
Post Mortem

The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that I'm going to play a game with each of the Civ IV leaders--mostly the less popular ones--that I haven't tried before. With the help of all the posters who participate, I will attempt to make the most of the leader's unique characteristics: traits, starting techs, unit, and building. Aside from the leader, the other game settings are kept constant, at their defaults, for the sake of comparison--although I'm introducing a couple of variations starting with this game (see below). I will post the saved game files, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses. Everyone then has a chance to chime in with their strategy ideas, or voice their frustration (or glee) when I make a mistake.

Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and to make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers--i.e. any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on--before I'm there myself. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.

In this ALC game, I'll be playing as Tokugawa, leader of Japan. I'm playing the game using the Warlords expansion pack (complete with the 2.08 patch). The difficulty level is Monarch, the map is Fractal (rather than Continents), and the speed is Epic (rather than Normal). My reasons for changing these settings are explained in the pre-game thread (see link above). The other game settings remain at their defaults:

And here's the starting position:

Well, well, well... in the pre-game thread I was talking about how I planned to just go war-crazy with Tokugawa, and look at that: we're gonna have War Elephants! Fun. And a very early happiness boost--very nice. Looks like we'll have to put Hunting on the list of early worker techs. I wouldn't mind building a Scout or two for exploration, unless we get them from huts.

Aside from the ivory, I don't see any other resources yet. But look at all those flood plains! If I settle in place, I count 6 flood plains in the fat cross (including the two partially in the fog of war). There's at least one additional flood plain 2 tiles SW that could be used for another city. Now, Tokugawa is not Expansive, so the flood plains will account for a -2.4 health penalty if I settle in place. That's easy enough to offset by the fresh water bonus, resources, buildings, and a couple of forests.

Forests could be an issue, though. I only see 3 in the fat cross at the moment, so if we start chopping, we'll lose their health bonus pretty quickly. Nevertheless, this start bodes well for the capital being an excellent commerce/science city that could house the Great Library and National Epic and have plenty of food to max out Great Scientists.

Hmmm... should I go with a cottage economy or a specialist economy? (Let me apologize in advance for stirring up that hornet's nest!) I feel like I've pretty much mastered cottage economies, but I could definitely use more help and guidance with the SE--especially if I don't build the Pyramids, which seems unlikely unless there's stone nearby. So with so many food-rich tiles readily available and everyone here to guide me, maybe SE would be the way to go, despite Toku lacking any traits to really take advantage of it (other than constant warfare, of course)?

Well, we have a while to decide on the economic strategy. The first question is where to move the Warrior? I'm thinking that the main decision point is whether or not to move the Settler north to have fewer flood plains, thereby splitting their unhealthiness with a later city to the south. There are riverside tiles to the north, after all. 1 NW looks attractive, especially since it's moving away from the desert and retains the fresh water bonus and river trade routes--in fact, it gains a river-borne trade route over the starting position. 1 NW still has 4 flood plains in the capital's fat cross (-1.6 health), leaving at least three southern flood plains for another city. We do give up those hills, but retain the elephants for production. (They'll each have 1/3/2 with a camp--as good as a grassland hill mine, with a little commerce thrown in.) We may gain some forests. Then again, the starting position might be best if we go SE. Hmmmm...

So what do you think of moving the Warrior 1N to see what would be in the first ring of the fat cross if I move the Settler 1 NW?

UPDATE: I finally remembered to attach the saved game file, below.

 

[jerVL/kg]

AWESOME start!!!

I think the opening strategy is clear -- settle in place, research Pottery, build a worker and cottage, cottage, COTTAGE!! Follow that with Mining/BW, then Myst/Med/Priest, build Oracle & choose Metal Casting, then Writing/Math/Const/CoL/CS, hope for a GE to lightbulb Machinery, and you're all set.

Alternatively, start with Hunting & build a couple scouts (you'll obviously need Hunting sooner than later) just remember that scouts become out of date very quickly on Monarch.

Only downside I see (aside from health penalties) is lack of food specials. Unless you farm some of those FPs, you're not going to do a lot of whipping in this city. However, each FP can run a mine or a camp, and you'll have 2 extra for growth. That's if you go for a CE -- I'll let others argue the merits of SE, since that's not my speciality. (And there might be something good on the other side of those hills, though it looks like plain grassland right now.)

The NW grassland tile is almost certainly a special resource, probably Iron. Don't settle there.

As for the warrior, I'd move NW to reveal more fog, then follow the river & see if you can find the coast. Future warriors/scouts should also follow the rivers.

I'll be back in 15 pages when something finally starts happening.

 

[futurehermit]

settle in place

pottery-hunting

worker-warrior-settler

 

[kniteowl]

Hmmm... If you thinking about settling 1 Tile NW then move your Warrior NW for more Information. NW west is better then N becuase it reveals more tiles (just an opinion)

If You decide to Settle in place, Pottery is a definite 1st tech... you want to work those cottages ASAP to stay in tech before the other AI's Economic Traits kick in and leave you in the dust.

If you decide to Settle 1 tile NW, then Hunting as the 1st tech to hook up those elephants is best.

I'd Ignore BW for now untill you need slavery... There's isn't much to chop you better off researching something for your workers to do. Although Mining is defintely Needed to mine those hills for early Military Production.

About the SE... Your Bound to Cottage your Capital whether your doing a SE or CE... You Cottage your capital because you need it to cover the maintenance cost generally under Bureaucracy, while the other cities do the research

 

[aelf]

Excellent Bureaucracy capital. You can have an SE in the rest of your empire, but IMO not cottaging the capital is a waste. You may need a few farms to work the mined hills, though.

 

[NaZdReG]

move warrior nw, then I'd advocate settling in place.. 2.08 gooses up the capitol location always to its benefit and rarely is it a good idea to move from there.

with the flood plains you could go either way..

but to the point of not having stone.. you're not industrius or philo.. 2 of the more powerful traits for a SE.. and it will be a struggle to get the pyramids up anyway...

but pottery is close and you could get cottages up super early...

on the other hand this spot will rock with watermills.. and you'll be less hesitant to pave over a farm rather than a full blown town by the time you hit state property.

enough about economics.. do what works best for you

since hunting will be early choice.. pick up archery asap.. i know i know everyone seems to hate archers. but protective makes them damn good (underrated darnit) and they are quick to produce at only 25 hammers.. a LOT better than warriors while you're busy researching and securing copper.. (which takes longer since you dont have access to mining) VERY good at city defense with their free promotions.. and take a few with you on the initial attack to solidly secure the city while you're army moves on. not to mention they upgrade quite nicely to xbows when you're getting ready to unleash samurai.

my love of protective archers has come from MP experience.. its really funny to see axes die against them and hell if you don't have metals you can give them drill 2 and send a stack at whatever city happens to have your copper.. ala civ3 style

thats my .02 on the early game, I'd love to see some screens of your early city micro.. seriously helps my game!!

 

[jerVL/kg]

BTW I'm already looking forward to the post-Industrialism era when you replace those elephant camps with State Property Watermills -- those are potentially 2F/4H/3C tiles in the late game, very sweet.

On reflection I agree with kniteowl, you don't need BW right away -- start with Pottery/Mining (or possibly Hunting/Pottery/Mining), and save BW for when you start building the Oracle.

Of course, by delaying copper you'll need Archery soon to fend off barbs, and possibly AH to see if there's any horses anywhere...hmm, I guess the starting strategy isn't as simple as I thought.

 

[jerVL/kg]

on the other hand this spot will rock with watermills.. and you'll be less hesitant to pave over a farm rather than a full blown town by the time you hit state property.

If you cottage the inner ring of FP's, the outer ring can be farmed & eventually watermilled. Due to the bendiness of the river, there's no way to watermill everything. (And don't forget that grassland river to the north!)

I agree, plowing over mature towns is painful, but sometimes it's gotta be done...

 

[uncarved block]

I'll join the settle in place chorus. One other thing the visible terrain gives you is options-- farm some FPs to use the whip, cottage others for commerce, and switch in and out of mined Hills for production. The map generator since the patch has also had a nasty habit of making second city sites less appealing, and you may need a power house capitol to carry a weak(er) second or third city. Or maybe I just need to work on visualizing good city locations . . .

The only thing that could make this better is if Monty is your nearest neighbor, making the choice of first target not only obvious but enjoyable.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

1)Cottage Kyoto's floodplains and get mines and camps going to fuel production. This city will be providing a lot of commerce AND hammers very early, and later will make a superb commerce or production site. My instincts tell me that the map generator has put some sort of food resource where you can't see it(most likely rice, corn, or cows) so that helps with health and provides even more growth. Of course, the warrior may be able to help us on that.
2)Pottery first. Cottage those flood plains straight away, and reap the benefits immediately. Then go hunting and camp the elephants. Hammers, and yet more commerce. Then get agriculture/animal husbandry if there's a food resource, but otherwise go mining-BW. This way, you can get off to a strong start in the tech race, right from the get-go. The speed should help you
3)I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of forests. I'd actually spare two of them. This city is looking like it won't be needing much help to build even wonders given you get them started at a reasonable time and they aren't...say....stoneless 'Mids.

 

[KMadCandy]

check things out with the warrior of course but i'd be nervous to settle 1 NW since if copper or iron showed up there i'd hate it. i'd rather have it as a mineable tile than underneath the city itself. i like that it didn't start your settler on a flood plain ... i hate wasting those. some dork (brennus?) settled on one in a game a while back and when i razed the city it was just desert then not FP waaaaaaaaaaaah.

i'd move the warrior NW instead of straight N.

health is an issue, you can't ignore it completely, but some folks panic about it a lot more than i do. so my city has too much food, grows too big, and starts to starve due to lack of health resources ... eh, they'll grow back. is that heartless?

oh and i second kniteowl on that whether you're SE or CE, the capital tends to be best cottaged if you're running bureaucracy. i'd love to watch you go SE sometime tho, when the map and leader make it a good plan, since i could use some help learning how to best leverage that myself.

 

[Killroyan]

Woohoo, new start and what a start it is. Settling in place is for sure. Going NW would cost you a grassland. Settling on the plain is just too good. Food is not going to be a big issue. If it is, farm a floodplain. This city will be able to grow to size 6 quickly working maybe something like 3 cottaged floodplain, 2 riverside elephants and 1 grassland hill making it an incredible powerfull commerce and production site. NICE!!! And I also got a gut feeling that there will be an extra resource on the 3 grassland tiles to the east. South is all floodplains so little chance of something extra over there and I see a lot of forests to the north. And wouldn't it be wonderfull if one of the grassland hills would pop iron or copper?

If you want to be the whipper and go SE style then agriculture is first on your list to get 2 or 3 floodplains farmed. If you want CE style then pottery is logical since you already have the wheel. Then hunting to get a 1F/3H/2C spot. Mining and BW following depending on wether there is another food resource. Otherwise fit in agriculture or AH.

This is going to be fun.

 

[pigswill]

Like the wikipedia link for Tokugawa. Settle in place (might need the hills for production). Initially could go agric/worker; farm FPs to boost early whipping and replace with cottages later.
Tech-wise you might want to find iron sooner rather than later for your sams (assuming you're going for a sam beeline) so that's another complication.

 

[cabert]

settle in place

pottery-hunting

worker-warrior-settler

just my thinking too, except i suggest warrior - worker -settler (to find the iron, you need exploration!)

 

[patagonia]

Settle in place: worker first.

You'll have one food special in the current location you can't yet see, which will influence the early tech order slightly.

Hunting > Mining/Agri (depending on food) > AH > bronze > pottery/archery (depending on military) > iron would be my preference. Then hit the writing/religious line depending on desired wonders whilst REXing and selecting opponent number 1.

A lot will depend on geography, but one dead AI by 1AD, another by 1000AD and the rest tumbling at intervals thereafter sounds like a resonable pace for expansion at Monarch.

In general, don't be afraid to break your great library addiction, or to hold off a builder tech like alphabet and beeline a military one like construction instead. Also don't be afraid to tank your research rate down to 10% due to rapid growth by conquest. If it's an AI core you're taking things will recover quickly enough.

 

[Killroyan]

The food resource is far from certain. I have had enough starting position without food resources when flood plains were present.

Warrior-worker-settler is my choice also.

 

[DarkFyre99]

Aside from the ivory, I don't see any other resources yet. But look at all those flood plains! If I settle in place, I count 6 flood plains in the fat cross (including the two partially in the fog of war). There's at least one additional flood plain 2 tiles SW that could be used for another city. Now, Tokugawa is not Expansive, so the flood plains will account for a -2.4 health penalty if I settle in place. That's easy enough to offset by the fresh water bonus, resources, buildings, and a couple of forests.

My first instinct is to settle in place. Six floodplains, three hills, and a whole lot of rivers. Though splitting those floodplains between two cities by settling one NW is attractive, since you can see a forest tile far to the south. You'll also be sitting between two rivers that way, which will expand your initial trade route.

Forests could be an issue, though. I only see 3 in the fat cross at the moment, so if we start chopping, we'll lose their health bonus pretty quickly. Nevertheless, this start bodes well for the capital being an excellent commerce/science city that could house the Great Library and National Epic and have plenty of food to max out Great Scientists.

It would also make a great Wall Street city if you go for a specialist economy, since you could run a bunch of merchants there as well.

Hmmm... should I go with a cottage economy or a specialist economy? (Let me apologize in advance for stirring up that hornet's nest!) I feel like I've pretty much mastered cottage economies, but I could definitely use more help and guidance with the SE--especially if I don't build the Pyramids, which seems unlikely unless there's stone nearby. So with so many food-rich tiles readily available and everyone here to guide me, maybe SE would be the way to go, despite Toku lacking any traits to really take advantage of it (other than constant warfare, of course)?

You don't have to decide until you're ready to found your second city. In either economy, you cottage your capital. Personally, I wouldn't go for a specialist economy unless you have Stone for the Pyramids. Without the Philosophical trait, it's not worth it without the three bonus beakers. However, if you have a lot of food resources and marble nearby, you might want to go with a hybrid economy.

Well, we have a while to decide on the economic strategy. The first question is where to move the Warrior? I'm thinking that the main decision point is whether or not to move the Settler north to have fewer flood plains, thereby splitting their unhealthiness with a later city to the south. There are riverside tiles to the north, after all. 1 NW looks attractive, especially since it's moving away from the desert and retains the fresh water bonus and river trade routes--in fact, it gains a river-borne trade route over the starting position. 1 NW still has 4 flood plains in the capital's fat cross (-1.6 health), leaving at least three southern flood plains for another city. We do give up those hills, but retain the elephants for production. (They'll each have 1/3/2 with a camp--as good as a grassland hill mine, with a little commerce thrown in.) We may gain some forests. Then again, the starting position might be best if we go SE. Hmmmm...

If you go with a specialist economy, you don't want to be running specialists in your capital, you need cottages. If you go with a specialist economy, I think you'd be better off with splitting those flood plains between two cities: your capital and your Super Science City.

Moving one NW is starting to look a lot better. Definitely need more data before making a final decision.

So what do you think of moving the Warrior 1N to see what would be in the first ring of the fat cross if I move the Settler 1 NW?

I think it would be a very good idea.

 

[LostCrumb]

I like the idea of running a SE. But I would not farm those floodplanes. If I run SE in my games, I always place cottages around the Capital, because you need to pay the maintenance for your empire somehow, and you get the bureaucracy bonus. These floodplains can be worked immediately, so the cottages will mature fast, and they will provide a good boost to your research in the early game.

But anyway, the purpose of these games is to learn something new, isn't it? So if you farm those floodplane, I will be happy to see, how this impacts on the early game

 

[patagonia]

But anyway, the purpose of these games is to learn something new, isn't it? So if you farm those floodplane, I will be happy to see, how this impacts on the early game

I've always felt that the two most important things in the early game are food and hammers, and since slavery can convert food to hammers, that makes food the most important thing. Commerce comes a distant third. What all of that means is that working cottages immediately is of little benefit since they don't help you build the settlers, workers and troops you need to get your fledgeling empire off the ground. In the absence of another food resource, farming the floodplains actually makes a lot of sense. It'll just take forever to do so.

 

[futurehermit]

you have the option to open with pottery and there are lots of floodplains. that's a no-brainer to me. and this is EPIC speed so scouting won't be a problemmo. worker first.