ALC Game 15: Ottoman/Mehmed II

[Sisiutil]

This option is turned off.

Ah, so there's a custom game setting that allows the human player to vassalize him/herself to the AI?

 

[carl corey]

I don't think so. "Turned off" should mean "completely unavailable". I think they said it could lead to all sorts of exploits, that's why they didn't include it.

 

[Whitefire]

Ah, so there's a custom game setting that allows the human player to vassalize him/herself to the AI?

Turned off meaning, in the code, it was disabled. It could be turned back on, but the consequences are unknown (as far as I know). And, as carl_corey said, it can be exploited in many ways.

 

[pholkhero]

it actually IS possible to do so as this very slow-moving game demonstrates. The Master demands resources from you as well as gifting you resources (and taking them away as well) and tech

 

[manu-fan]

Sisiutil,

Oh, how did you ever get into such a sorry shape

I think it all stems back to only 2 cities in about 600BC. What the heck?

Maybe the whipping of the ewarly wonder held back your Capital also.

Anyway, It's probably not right to dwell on that right now. Good luck getting out of this jam. That's why I usually play on Pangea

BTW: Any thought to having some of your cities just build 'Research' to hasten along your techs somewhat? Or is that a bad idea?

Cheers.

 

[Sisiutil]

Sisiutil,

Oh, how did you ever get into such a sorry shape

I think it all stems back to only 2 cities in about 600BC. What the heck?

Maybe the whipping of the ewarly wonder held back your Capital also.

Anyway, It's probably not right to dwell on that right now. Good luck getting out of this jam. That's why I usually play on Pangea

BTW: Any thought to having some of your cities just build 'Research' to hasten along your techs somewhat? Or is that a bad idea?

Cheers.

I lay it all at the feet of the barbs, frankly. If you don't get one of the 3 early strategic resources in the capital's fat cross on an isolated start, you're going to have a very hard time. I had to build and whip Warrior after Warrior because it was either that or lay down and die.

I suppose the sensible thing would have been to forgo any wonders (which I'm doing now) and focus on expansion and growth, but hindsight is always 20/20.

 

[curtadams]

Only thing I can think of, is if you have the money, they'll ask for it to give you a chance, if you have nothing to give them, they'll just attack you giving you no chance to appease them, so I think what he's saying is if you have some money laying around that would give you the means to appease an AI, and maybe even get them to like you. Whether I agree or not... I'm not sure...

I still deny extortionate tribute because of my experiences in CivIII. In CivIII, the AI would demand tribute - and then sneak attack 2 turns later anyway if I gave in. I've never tested it, but the Civ IV AI seems even more eager to attack when it thinks it has a military advantage, so I figure it will still do the same thing.

At present I give in to demands only with the aim of making AI which aren't going to attack me anyway become or stay friendly. Tribute sometimes permits open borders, and then it's often worthwhile.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 5: 1280 AD to 1358 AD

I didn't play very many turns during this round because I'm in a precarious position and I want everyone to alert me to any necessary course corrections ASAP. That being said, things are starting to look up a little bit.

I started off by postponing the build of a hammam in Konya as all of you were urging:

Easy for you lot to suggest! With all those Workers out toiling away in the jungle all day, the place is starting to reek. But the city is still growing, so I suppose their wives are just pinching their noses shut and tolerating it as best they can.

Now that they have a new whipping boy, the other civs came by to push me around a little. Guess who was first in line:

Not that giving in made him any friendlier, but I suppose I'd rather have a demerit with the much more reasonable Frederick than this nut. Not, I suppose, that it will make much difference in the end, but it may buy me time, which I very much need.

And Montezuma wasn't the only one who felt like showing poor ol' Sisiutil who's boss:

Oh, rub it in, why don't you, babe?

Fortunately, not everybody else was so nasty. Freddy turned out to be very forgiving:

I don't really need the health bonus, but he had no other resources to offer and this way I start accumulating a diplomatic bonus for resource supply to offset the trade cancellation Monty forced me into.

And look who was feeling generous!

You'd never peg Vikings as being a bunch of softies, would you? What a guy. This enables forges, of course, and since I have a source of gold, it means I have another means to boost the happiness cap (not to mention production).

Shortly after this, I finished researching my next tech:

Of course I immediately changed civics to take advantage of it:

Unfortunately, everyone already has CS, so I wasn't able to trade it to anyone. I started researching Construction with an eye towards building several Catapults for defense as some of you suggested. I agree that I should bee-line to Democracy soon, but I think Cats for defense, then Calendar to give me sugar for trading are necessary pits stops before pursuing that path.

Speaking of trade, I had some luck on that front as the other civs gradually obtained Astronomy:

In fact, by the end of this round, I had several trades in place which allowed me to raise the research slider:

Here's a look at foreign relations, which seemed to be the focus of this round:

And finally, a look at the map:

I shifted tiles worked as the cities grew to the cottages, which I was laying down with the help of a couple more Workers that I built. I would have built more but some of the cities haven't popped their borders yet. With so many civs having Astronomy, I'm beginning to think that I should waste much more time in that regard waiting for other religions to spread to me. Next round I think I should just spread a religion and get all my land claimed to keep out the other civs.

Speaking of religion: I spread Buddhism to Istanbul and Edirne, but I haven't converted, nor have I given up Confucianism. Any recommendations there? Even without converting, I've managed to get almost everybody up to "Pleased", so is it really necessary?

The saved game is below.

 

[scooter]

How big is everyone's tech lead on you now? I think you should rush up to that little island to get the copper, if only for denial/trade purposes. I think it's pretty amazing that you have everyone up to pleased, even though you have a state religon that no one else has!

 

[TheArchduke]

The Vikings gifting you a tech? Whew... This is a challenge.

 

[KMadCandy]

I would have built more but some of the cities haven't popped their borders yet. With so many civs having Astronomy, I'm beginning to think that I should waste much more time in that regard waiting for other religions to spread to me. Next round I think I should just spread a religion and get all my land claimed to keep out the other civs.

is there a "not" missing in there somewhere? you shouldn't waste much more time?

Speaking of religion: I spread Buddhism to Istanbul and Edirne, but I haven't converted, nor have I given up Confucianism. Any recommendations there? Even without converting, I've managed to get almost everybody up to "Pleased", so is it really necessary?

well, the only benefit to staying confused is if it's already spread to your cities, to save you hammers in making missionaries. the line of sight you get from it being your state religion isn't gaining you anything since you're the only with it in any cities, and you get the shrine money whether it's your state religion or not. you can still spread it to get more shrine money, to your own cities and to AI cities, even if you're no longer a "true believer" of course.

there could be real benefits to converting to buddhism. if you're the only confused one, nobody's on your side. if you're buddhist, then the non-buddhists think you're a heathen, but they already think that so that's not a negative of the conversion plan. the buddhists tho, they'll change from think you're a heathen to thinking you're one of the righteous. that's a good thing. only down sides are making the missionaries to spread it around, and i suppose giving ragnar line of sight into your cities although i never worry about that .

i don't know if it's absolutely necessary but it's something i would definitely do. using religion in diplomacy and politics is part of my style, and something i concentrate on. having wicked fun in a current game, i sent jewish missionaries to genghis when he surprisingly opened borders after a present. i sent hindu ones (my own religion) to saladin and frederick muhahaha. genghis is gonna die soon . i'm much better at that sort of manipulation than i am at the "make a ton of chariots and kill somebody off before i learn construction" angle *giggle*.

 

[Melior Traiano]

As I said before, it's not a question of if, so much as when...

The two highest power civs both have enough on their hands. Looks like you're gonna have a chance to see those Catapults in action.

 

[axident]

That isn't necessarily true; check to see who Monty and Cathy hate most. As long as you aren't their Worst Enemy, you will probably not be first on their hit list. If there are any barb cities still in play, they might even be targeting those instead of you. However, if you are someone's worst enemy, and they have full hands, and no barbs are around, then peace won't last much longer... Normally what I'd do is bribe someone to attack someone I know is about to attack me. That's the only way to avoid war. But right now, there isn't anything we can offer in terms of tech, and I doubt we have enough gold to bribe. So uh, yes, build more cats.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

Heheh, I just love how "We have enough on our hands" is code for "We're planning to attack you." I still say a DP is the best way to cheat death, but it looks like Sisiutil may not have that much time. Just how far away is Military Tradition?

 

[Ecofarm]

Cathrine and Monty share borders (see diplomatic advisor). There is some hope.
Pay tribute in any way possible or good luck with those cats.

 

[Killroyan]

Axident, this is not true. In my last game I was up to +7 to Genghis but was lacking a bit in military power but was leading the score. Even if there were other characters with +4/+5 I got still invaded like no tomorrow.

Anybody who says that the AI is not able to land a decent SoD has never seen Genghis move an invasion force of 25+ units with boats. I was like "What the.........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Lost 2 main cities (defended by 6 units) in the first 2 rounds.

I would have expected some more coastal cities Sisi, but I guess you choose the cottage appraoch with as many workable tiles as possible. Good luck in the next round.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

As I said before, it's not a question of if, so much as when...

Monty is only Annoyed with you and Frederick, and I doubt Frederick is anywhere near the top of his hit list.

By this time period, I presume everybody has Knights. It's somewhat of a gamble, but loading up on cheap Spearmen might not be a bad idea, either.

If you can wrest a World Map from somebody, that might at least help us to know which direction he's coming from, too.

How big is everyone's tech lead on you now? I think you should rush up to that little island to get the copper, if only for denial/trade purposes. I think it's pretty amazing that you have everyone up to pleased, even though you have a state religon that no one else has!

In no particular order:

State Religion

I vote either NSR or Buddhism. We have no religious civic running, so except for the +1 , it may very likely be doing more harm than good -- especially where Monty is concerned. Losing that -4 might buy as a few more turns of preparation.

Land is Power and Power is Land

Even though the island is a bit far from Istanbul, I think it's worth it. Our traits will get us a 50% off Lighthouse, Granary and Courthouse -- all the things we NEED this city to have ASAP.

Given the 4 Forests in the SW of the Island, that would be the place to stake a claim, if there ever was one. If you found a city 1S of the Desert tile, you'll have 3 Forests in your inner ring for a total of 132 chop hammers. Courthouse + Granary = 135 hammers ... Lighthouse = 45, which +29 of can come from the forest outside the inner ring (+44 if we bring along a Missionary to pop the borders).

This city will increase our total maintenance by 12 , I think. Rushing our 3 primary builds, working the Coast and adding in +2 from trade routes means we shave off 11 of that (albeit 2.5 of it is in beakers). Leaving 1 total commerce lost for the city, which should be recouped in 17 turns when it 2 pops -- at which point we might work the mine or a Cottage.

Who knows, maybe this city'll become a distraction to the AI if/when they invade.?.

Istanbul = City

Spoiler We need GNP BAD :

Even though Istanbul is the top city right now, we are way down on GNP, so I think we should focus Istanbul on .

As soon as the Axeman is finished, lock in 2 Scientists, 1 Merchant and set the governor to & . This will allow you to increase the Science slider by 1% (thus speeding up Construction a turn) and also speed up the GP by 2 turns sooner (granted, this might 'pollute' the pool, but even a GM would be better than a GPr right now, though we all pray dearly for an Academy-building GS.)

Making this switch in Istanbul will also result in +7 food, which is highly respectable and will get us to working all the cottages that much sooner.

Edirne = Dry County

Edirne's Rice isn't Irrigated. This could be rectified in one turn with all the Workers running around.

Speaking of Edirne, I might also run a Merchant there -- at least until the Rice Farm is irrigated and the Lighthouse is finished.

Bursa = time

Since Bursa is #2 on the production list, I'd recommend moving all military production there (especially if Istanbul is switched to Science).

To facilitate this, chop 2 of the forest tiles for +88 hammers towards the Forge.

Given the fear of invasion, we need this city up and running ASAP.

Crutch city

I just recently learned the power of the crutch and have never gone back.

I'm talking about a city whose purpose in life is to work cottages for other cities until they can stand on their own feet.

Build a crutch on the hill between Istanbul and Konya. There are 7 forests surrounding this site, resulting in 308 chop hammers. Courthouse 90 + Granary 45 + Library 135 = 270 w/ 38 overflow.

Similar to the island expansion, you can time the chops to all hit the city on turn 1 as it's built -- in which case it will almost immediately pay for itself after cottage / trade routes are factored in.

The crutch will be able to work 2 tiles from each city and will later have a number of its own grasslands and hills to draw from.

Alternately, I would also have the crutch take over Istanbul's Rice for the 1st 7 turns it needs to grow to pop 2 -- thus enabling it to work both of Istanbul's east river cottages. This will still leave Istanbul with +4 .

I believe making the Istanbul changes and adding the crutch will increase science by 6 and gold by 8, if my numbers are correct. Total cost goes up to 93, though, so running a Merchant in Edirne and Istanbul along with the crutch is almost a must at first.

The crutch is nearly impossible to do in conjunction with island expansion, imo ... it hurts a lot ... if the crutch is built first and the expansion is built after the crutch 2 pops and Edirne & Istanbul run Merchants, THEN you'll more-or-less break even building both of these cities quickly.

Tiiimmmmmbbbeeerrr!

There are Forests all over the island ... is there a particular reason why we aren't chop-rushing anything?

Given that we're post-Mathematics, every Forest is a Granary or Lighthouse ... every 2 Forests is a Courthouse ... every 3 a Library. If not anything else, that's a ton of units waiting to be unleashed, too.

My 2c

I think that pretty much covers my immediate suggestions. My biggest fear is still that Monty is about to come squash us.

 

[curtadams]

I concur that the AI will attack people it likes if it thinks there's a good opportunity. I've had AIs at "friendly" declare on me for no reason other than a power score 2-3 times mine (kinda like real people!). With these power differentials I see little chance for appeasement, especially with Monty. Maybe you can use Cathy's lust for tribute to get really high and that will save you from her at least. If Monty's just getting Astronomy now you've got a few turns before he can build an invasion fleet.

I don't think you can do much to forestall an invasion once the AI has set it in motion. My impression is that once the AI has sent units out on an attack plan it has a hard time recalling them. If you can reinforce the target the attackers frequently suicide. Programming limitations, I suppose. So once those knight get loaded on the Galleons they're going to be attacking your walls eventually.

Will knight(s) soon fall upon Mehmed's kingdom?

 

[r_rolo1]

Well, the game is in a critical point. Sisiutil's civ is slowly recovering of the isolation, and if he could manage to pass the next two centuries unharmed, he has conditions to win the day. But Melior Traiano is right: unless Monty and Cathy are preparing to figth each other ( that would be nice...), we will see some uphill figths ( Gunpowder is far away, we would need to research Archery + Feudalism for longbows and Guilds is far away and needs HBR...., that leaves you with cats+axes+swords+spears for the near future) and, after construction ( for the cats ) we need to beeline gunpowder for the jans...

The crutch city of OTAKUjbski seems like a good idea, but i wouldn't go for the island like he suggests ( dangerous gamble... )

About the game geography, it looks like a 3 continental system world: you in one, Monty and Cathy ( and Capac, maybe on a nearby island ( no close borders)) in other and Freddy and Cyrus ( and Ragnar in another island ) in the last. A heavily divided world, good for diplo or cultural wins.

About the buddhist thing, having 3 more friends would be nice, but Monty is Hindu and Cathy is Jewish. It won't hurt you a lot, but it won't help with the big dogs.

Said that, attach well your helmet's strings and good luck

 

[patagonia]

Just a minor quibble, but if you're in need of border pops, a swap to caste system might not be a bad idea.

I know you aren't spiritual and us lot normally encourage you to make fewer civics swaps rather than more, but it'll be the fastest way to close off any remaining land on your current island and things are getting to a stage where growth is likely to be more useful than the whip.

Until Monty shows up with 20 knights and trebs anyway

(actually, my gut feeling is you'll be OK from invasion for a while yet - cue famous last words)