ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar

Well, it seems that the RNG gods have decided that Ragnar on an Archipelago is overpowered, and have given us a very tough starting area to compensate. :cool:

The way I see it, if we can't find other civs by boat/borders, we've got a twofold problem. The first issue is how to power the economy to reach Astronomy without getting left behind in military and economic techs. The second is how to generate enough hammers to build the army/navy we'll need once we can traverse the oceans.

We have two wonders built so far, only one of which has a direct economic benefit, and that is severely nerfed while we're isolated. Once we get Astronomy, the GLH will become very powerful, but until then we're going to have to power our research by other means.

There's a fair amount of cottageable tiles available, but if we cover all of our land with cottages, rather than workshops/watermills, we're going to be very production limited - which will really hurt when we we need a swift military buildup.

What we do have is the Financial trait and a whole lot of coastal tiles, as well as Stone, plenty of seafood, and a reduced need for military early on. To me, this cries out for a Pyramids-powered SE, using our coastal income to pay maintenance costs, while covering much of the land we have with hammer-producing improvements.

That way, we can tech swiftly to Optics, then Astronomy (maybe through Liberalism, but directly could be more effective), whilst building up a latent production capacity to be unleashed when war beckons. At that point, all those juicy international trade routes will keep the beakers flowing as we switch from scientists to hammers.

Again, meeting even one AI within galley range could alter our situation dramatically. But until that happens, I feel we need to be aiming for Optics and Astronomy as soon as we can, which makes any diversions to grab the GL or other wonders less attractive propositions.
 
I don't agree with beelining optics, Winston Hughes.... because it colides a lot with this:
The first issue is how to power the economy to reach Astronomy without getting left behind in military and economic techs
Machinery is a somewhat :science: heavy tech that does not add much to the economical infrastructure ( windmills and watermills will only shine much later )... I would prefer a Education beeline passing by CoL, CS and Currency.
 
I don't agree with beelining optics, Winston Hughes....

Machinery is a somewhat :science: heavy tech that does not add much to the economical infrastructure ( windmills and watermills will only shine much later )... I would prefer a Education beeline passing by CoL, CS and Currency.

Well, you certainly know your isolated starts...

But we are looking at a VERY limited amount of decent land here - much less than on any of the LHC games I've played or followed. And if we wait for the AI to come to us, we could be well behind in tech AND lacking the production capacity to launch an invasion to get more land. Plus, if we're not going to go for Astronomy early, then the GLH looks like a white elephant to me.

In most isolated starts I would go for a different approach - REX to fill the space available, and concentrate on building a strong economy whilst teching towards Liberalism. On this map, though, I don't feel we'll be able to build a strong enough empire to rely on trading our way to Optics after the AI finds us, and still expect to pursue a militaristic approach through the mid-late game.

That said, even if they don't find any civs, our exploring workboats might find enough decent land to make me reconsider the above.

Edit: I should add that while I see CoL as a key tech here (mainly for Caste System), neither Currency nor Mathematics are so important as on other maps, and Paper is outright useless until we get Optics. And while Machinery doesn't have much to recommend it, Metal Casting, Iron Working and Compass could all be useful.
 
Well, I have to agree that the lack of decent land hinders this game a lot ( BTW thre was a LHC that looked a lot with this, the Liz one ( still in Warlords and hosted by willpax )... bad land and a fin civ ). That's why I said to build Collosus if isolated ( in spite of understanding S man move: we still don't know if we are isolated and AI in BtS love GLH.... he had to build it now if he wanted to have it ): most of the cities will be tundra + resource + coastal and in that scenario it is far better to work the sea tiles.

I'm not saying that we can't Lib Astro ( IMHO that is by far one of the best moves with Ragnar ), but just stating that Machinery ( a necessary tech for Optics ) is a heavy research investement that will not give a big help to the economy/research of the empire soon, and that in that regard, the :science: would give a earlier feedback with other techs ( that do not lead to Optics unfortunately ). But....
That said, even if they don't find any civs, our exploring workboats might find enough decent land to make me reconsider the above.
I couldn't agree more ;) . ATM we only have a pretty small part of the picture avaliable and making decisions with just part of the intel is as good as wildguess ( sometimes even worse.... :lol: )
 
^^Fair points... I think that the best compromise would be bulbing Machinery ( as suggested before ) and go Optics after CS ( I suspect that this game will be capitol driven, so Beauro is a must ).... not the best path of all, but I think that is a fair balanced path ( it we don't get a GM instead of the desired GS... both Collosus and GLH give GM GPP )
 
CivSetä;6229937 said:
I made a dotmat:
alc20dotmap.jpg

Great dot map civsetä

the yellow dot is actualy a good city. farms is no problem as the river is there and have alot of green squares.

I whod go for that map.
 
What you need to do:

Start a settler (or 2, 3) in your capital while your second city creates the military units. Best to settle east, south, or on the island west of your capital. Don't bother with the north, the only "decent" city is the furs because of their happiness, but the city won't have food until windmills come by.

I don't think the Pyramids is really necessary. The extra food (fish) you have simply means more citizens available for cottaging, leveraging Ragnar's financial trait.
 
I agree with Winston Hughes on the tech needs. CoL is pretty much the only real priority aside from Optics. The only other tech we may need to beeline is literacy(aesthetics) for GL. However it seems to me we are safe to get it after optics - marble and all.;)

Which gets me thinking regardless of wether we expect to tech, steal or trade CoL we get a good bargain aiming it through priesthood. In turn that makes me wander if we can still aim the oracle settling on the marble. Both teching and settling across the sea should take less than 15 straight turns. Its a gamble, but anything that converts :hammers: to economy is good at this point. In the (unlikely granted) event we get a GM around then (18 turns to GP) we could net up to machinery in one shot. Otherwise some :hammers: to :gold: are still something.

Ofcourse the pyramids are still a target afterwards.



The dotmap is a nice one. However i reatain settling the island first for better trade routes. Probably settle the orange city as #6 too, at this point we need economy not hammers.
Other than that a single black city is enough, no need to squeeze things more for little gain.:D
 
Uppsala is tailor made for the Pyramids. 5 forests to chop, plenty of food and we can farm the grassland tile. 5 hills for production.We need archers, warriors and trading post along the way. Put in a forge and the GE will come to bulb machinery, which we need for our UU.

Marble city is a shoe in for the Oracle with all those forests, but the city isn't needed until we're researching Priesthood. A city to net the fur, however, is to gain the extra happiness.

The capital can produce settlers, workers and other units.
 
In my experience the AI will run mercantilism ASAP and foreign trade routes might not be an option till around 1500 AD. I personally wouldn't rush to optics, just focus on building as many cities as possible to work those 3:commerce: coastal tiles. Those trade routes from the lighthouse aren't useless since all the routes are intercontinental. One size 15 city on the west continent will give you a lucrative trade route every city can use. Also, not building a standing army will save you about 30:gold: per turn. I doubt the other AI will do to well unless all the religions are founded in isolation.
 
Haven't read any other posts but:

Why build barracks? Waste of hammers when you are isolated.
Claiming the Marble with the 3rd city is a great idea.
 
Why build barracks? Waste of hammers when you are isolated.

Helps unlocking heroic epic when the units start with higher exp. Also helps against barbs. But yes, it's not a right building to work on right now, it can be delayed.
 
I think claiming the marble with your third city is a bad idea. Unless you REALLY want the marble wonders, the coastal cities on your starting island are much better. You have space for 6 good cities. Settle those first and worry about the wonders later.

Optics doesn't have any GS bulbs on its path and you realistically only need 2 GS bulbs for the liberalism path. One for philosophy and one for most of education. Add in a GS for an academy and that's 3 GS that you'll want to spawn. If you're going for a military victory, a GM or two (from the lighthouse) will be nice for promiting your berserkers to rifles later.

I would go settle the GP farm as the third city. You may also want to set up a Globe draft city with one of the fishing farms. Any city with 2 food sources makes a great Globe draft city for rifles. 3 = Ridiculous.
 
it's a shame that western island doesn't have much food, but i do still really like settling on it. not for grabbinb marble for a wonder frenzy, but for trade routes. intercontinental trade gives a 100% bonus, and with GLH if we eventually put two cities there, every city on the mainland can have two intercontinental trade route, and the best one from home. of course the computer does its mumbo-jumbo to figure out which ones are the best, but you know what i mean, i think those will be, unless another city is much bigger.

there won't be any colony expense at all for the first city over there. even with 2 or 3, it's very small. it's when you get Sid's Sushi and go crazy with seafood, like i have a tendency to do, that it gets out of control. and colony expenses are hard-capped at twice the "distance from palace" portion of the maintenance, so if the capital stays where it is, that island can't cost us tons even if we sploit and put 7 cities on it :lol:.

And while Machinery doesn't have much to recommend it, Metal Casting, Iron Working and Compass could all be useful.
yup! we need IW, since we know BW and didn't find copper anywhere. i heard a rumor warmongers need one or the other ;).

and compass, because harbors rock. commerce is good, and whether we go HR or rep via pyramids to make our cities happy, we certainly don't want to see those hideous green toxic clouds do we? ewwwwwwww i hate those! for health we have 1 granary resource (rice), 1 grocer (wine), and 1 supermarket (moooooooo!). but we can get all 3 harbor resources, if we manage to round up crabs in a hopefully not too junky city. maybe there's something nice by the crabs above the cows, on what looks like a tundra island? i can dream! good thing most cities will be coastal, since there aren't a lot of prime freshwater spots. i'm not terribly fond of this map so far, but it'll be fun to see how it plays out.
 
Hey, I just finished a shadow game of this. Had a blast. Hope you too.

Spoiler :
Won by Space Race at 1970 AD, 38266 points, 10h. Could have been Domination earlier, I just got tired of the micro and my seafood tiles being pillaged again and again because my fleet was ashore.
 
Couple things:
Mathematics, Code of Laws, Civil Service, Currency, Alphabet, Optics. These are all the best techs to have in an isolated start. Add Machinery due to the Berserker thing, as well, then Astronomy.
Mathematics: Canal Forts to start off with (the isthmus at the northern black city on CivSeta's DM), as well as the chopping bonuses for Wonder-spamming.
Code of Laws: Caste System, Courthouses, etc. We know the drill.
Civil Service: Bureaucracy, since production is lacking in Archipelago maps, and farm chaining to provide irrigation to northern and food-lacking cities.
Currency: To be able to trade gold ASAP with other Civs is a boon. The problem is that we'll need Astronomy to do it properly...
Alphabet: Tech trading any one of our priority techs, like Optics or Machinery or Compass, even, will get us good marks. But only do this after contacting everyone to find out the relationship there. Also, it enables Spies, which I like to put on exploring Caravels in order to get some idea of their land.
Optics: Duh. Need I say more?
Machinery: Berserkers, and Optics prerequisite.
Astronomy: Galleons, and trans-oceanic trade; brings Currency's advantages to fore.

Knowing this, here are the techs needed.
Pottery
Writing
Alphabet
Currency

Mysticism
Meditation
Priesthood
Code of Laws
Mathematics
Civil Service

Calendar
Mining
Bronze Working
Iron Working
Metal Casting
Machinery
Compass
Optics
Astronomy
 
Sisiutil:
If in fact you are isolated you might want to check out some of the lonely hearts games. Generally people ignored techs like alpha, and depending on the level and the start either beelined lib or waited and popped astro with it.

One strat I used with pretty good success was basically run for rifling after astro. Don't build much military then start drafting. (you do let the barbs settle a city so you can get a 10XP unit for HE). Globe city is important for this strat--you need to plan ahead a bit on that to get it up by the time rifling is in.

You have IMHO a strong start with a powerful isolated leader (UU no good but fin is huge)--should be easily winnable at monarch with a variety of strats--especially as you have pretty decent land for an archi map.

I have limited archi experience but it seemed like late game conquest was much easier--since you don't have a mass of cottages you can stay in nat and draft--the AI has way fewer units so you just roll over them.

cross posted with your last set.
 
Round 3: 1550 BC to 25 AD (77 turns)

An unusually long round for an ALC, but given that I'm isolated, there weren't that many critical decision points. In fact I could have kept going, but I felt I should at least post the round to get feedback on how I'm doing and if any course corrections are required.

I heeded the advice about the barracks... partially. I abandoned building one in the capital for now in favour of a Settler, but I kept that build in Uppsala. The Settler went southeast:

ALC20_25AD_01.jpg


Meanwhile, Stonehenge was spewing out Great Prophets in the capital.

ALC20_25AD_02.jpg


I spawned two Great Prophets this round. Both of them would have lightbulbed Meditation, which is a cheap tech and of almost no use to me at this point. So I opted for settling them in Nidaros instead, which helped me keep my research slider above 60% (sometimes higher) all round. The extra hammers were nice as well. The downside of the wonder combination in the capital is the lack of predictable great people, of course, something which may get worse, as you'll see.

After I finished researching writing, I decided I needed one more strategic tech.

ALC20_25AD_03.jpg


And the $64,000 question, of course, is do I have iron? As it turns out, yes I do--a double dose of it, in fact, and already within my borders!

ALC20_25AD_04.jpg


That made Uppsala an even better production city (it will probably become my military/HE city, if and when I get a unit XP'd enough). And it makes those two southwestern cities on CivSeta's dotmap even more attractive (they can share the iron tile--more micromanagement, but I'm beginning to see that this may type requires it).

I finally got around to building a Galley and sent it and my Scout over to the island. The tribal village over there was unguarded (yay!) and check out what it popped for:

ALC20_25AD_05.jpg


What an incredible stroke of luck! I know several people have told me to turn off the goody huts, but I like them--not just for the pleasant surprises like the above, but because they add a random element to the game which makes it fun (which is also why I continue to get a kick out of the BtS random events). And I'm not apologizing for this hut pop since it makes up a little bit for the tough and isolated start I've been handed.

And before you think I totally lucked out, I built a forge and then began work on the Colossus in Nidaros (hoping to skew the GPs towards more Great Merchants), but someone else beat me to it. No doubt the absence of copper hurt me. I did get a pile of gold for my trouble, however, and that helped me deficit-research through a later tech. And the capital has its forge built, which helped me on a later project, as you'll see.

Meanwhile, I managed to score another wonder several of you had recommended.

ALC20_25AD_06.jpg


I changed civics immediately:

ALC20_25AD_07.jpg


I was able to take advantage of the raised happiness cap immediately; Nidaros, with all that seafood, quickly grew to its maximum size. Taking advantage of the +3 research points from each specialist will take longer--I especially need to get that NE wine/3 fish city going--but I'll get there.

While I acknowledge the urgency of pursuing Optics to make contact with the other civs, I felt that a diversion to land the Great Library was worthwhile.

ALC20_25AD_08.jpg



ALC20_25AD_09.jpg


ALC20_25AD_10.jpg


I built a library and then started work on the GL in Nidaros. Yes, it would mix up the GP points, but I didn't have much choice. None of my other cities were mature enough to build a library and the GL in a reasonable amount of time. Uppsala was the only other candidate, but its low food levels meant it wouldn't be able to run the additional scientists needed to produce Great Scientists. So I decided to make Nidaros into a Cracker Jack box GP farm, if you will.

Meanwhile, I got some news that at least I'm not completely behind everybody else--I'm sure the hut pop helped in that regard.

ALC20_25AD_11.jpg


Oh yes, you might notice by peeking under the rankings screen above that I settled my first city on the western land mass, right on top of the marble as recommended. It also helped with the economy, since several of my other cities have trade routes with it thanks to the Great Lighthouse, and all of them produced 2 commerce rather than the 1 for a regular, continental trade route.

With the techs for the Great Library in hand, I got back on the Optics track.

ALC20_25AD_12.jpg


And I kept expanding, though perhaps not as quickly as some would like (all those darned wonders).

ALC20_25AD_13.jpg


I also founded the Wine/3 fish city (Bjorgvin) late in the round.

On the last turn of the round, some more good news: I finished my next wonder in Nidaros.

ALC20_25AD_14.jpg


That will make Nidaros rather unpredictable in terms of Great People, unfortunately, but I'll just have to live with it. I'm running 2 additional scientists in the capital to try to skew the GPP towards a Great Scientist; I'm hoping to compete in the race to Liberalism for free Astronomy. I think it would be better to build the National Epic in Bjorgvin, since I should have a little more control over the GPs coming out of that city.

Here's a look at the map:

ALC20_25AD_15.jpg


I haven't done too much exploring, something I'll need to rectify in the next round. Once again, no other civs have shown up, which pretty much confirms that I'm isolated. That also made exploration a lower priority for me until Optics. Still, I need to get out and see what those two islands to the NW and NE connect me to, if anything.

I definitely want to prioritize three more cities from CivSeta's dotmap: the fur/horse city (1 SE of where he put it, a change he readily advocated), the horse city on the western island, and the fish/iron city in the SW. The two crab cities--one in the far north (no iron after all) and one on that forlorn NE island--will come later.

Oh, and, what about the Moai Statues, still unbuilt? Maybe in Bjorgvin to help with its dismal production? (Though I am gonna put workshops on its two plains tiles.)

Meanwhile I'm researching Machinery (6 turns to go) and plan on grabbing Optics after that. Once my Caravels are being built, I think Alphabet makes sense so I can tech trade with whoever I meet (though I'll probably try to meet everyone and learn the lay of the diplomatic land before making any deals I may later regret). I know that Mathematics, Currency, Code of Laws, and Civil Service are all priorities, but I may be able to trade for some of them.

Or am I way off-base there? Some of you veterans of isolation can weigh in and tell me how I'm doing. I feel a lot better than I did in the Mehmed game--barbs have not really been an issue. I have a couple of Guerilla-promoted Archers up in the northern wastes, and they've handled all the barb threats thus far.

So how am I doing, anyway? I haven't played a game with an isolated start since... well, since Mehmed, to be frank.
 

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Great job, Sisiutil!
I'll be curious to see how many caravels people recommend--I'd say three, given you've gotten off lightly with military so far, and that the map is archipelago, but I'm not too experienced with being isolated into AD.
 
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