ALC Game 21: Zulus/Shaka

[Roxlimn]

I agree with Mathematics - conquer the land, take the bounties and tech away with the increased land area. I'd like to see some of those Elephants whale away at HC's units. Bwahahaha! High culture Holy City can definitely be a problem, so I would plan a contingency for it being too tough by teching to Construction for the possible Cata support later.

 

[ese-aSH]

hey sisutil good expansion, but you are now 30% science rate only ! are you sure you can affort a war now ?
if yes, do not hesitate, spy HC, build a few spies to suppress its cultural defenses and rush him with Horses & impies.
if no, I still suggest you to pillage his lands (using horses + impies). De gaulle may go at at war with you (he's the highest score, so leading him into war can not be bad).

The big issue is your economy... it would be great to build an army + grab a 5th city.

edit : why dont you trade HBR for math to Wang and to Alphabet with someone else ?

 

[civ4legs]

Looking good, Sis, although I too am a bit concerned about the 30% science. That being said, your lands are VERY nice, and I think it's worth dropping a bit behind in tech in order to take HC's cities off his hands.

Everything's falling into place diplo-wise; I never seem to get so lucky with my intended victims! I would take the trade for math, and tech to construction so you can pump out some cats and phants. In the meantime keep building up your army and blitzkrieg through HC. You can check the top 5 cities screen to see if HC has put the shrine in; not that you should necessarily wait for him to do it...

 

[Porphyrius]

I have mixed feelings about this.

On one hand settling uMgungdolovu was wisely given priority.
On the other, tech choices...
Masonry without attempting either wonder(for speeding walls? - could at least get it early and gift stone to HC to get the mids/GW built closer), and both HBR and IW?
Thus pottery was delayed, along with writing.


Given all that the economy is in better shape than it just might.
Seems to me CoL needs be the first tech priority. Ikhandas are nice enough might let one get away with an extra city early (or tech to CoL faster) but are no substitute for courthouses if the aim is to expand beyond 6-7 cities.
You certainly shouldnt start a war without it.
And if constuction isnt far off its worth waiting for.



Also there's the matter of proper timing to be brought up. Snatching the first 2 workers rather than building them can prove game-breaking, thus justifing the risk of reprisals and likely doomed diplo potential. The same thing in 500BC with a handfull workers of your own fielded is plain silly.
I swear first time through i was confused taking "this very tempting situation"
to refer to a potential city site to settle.

Same thing about combo impi+HA skirmishes. There is a proper time for it and around 150BC plus to build some HA its now past.
BTW, was the composition of the current military panned? Archers are often needed to defend early barbs, but 7 promoted for field duties rathen than defence?



Last but not least are we sure HC's land is the proper place to expand to?
I like leaving an industrius or tech-confident leader as my later target(still pre rifles/grens era though), excpecting to get more from him.

Not to mention there appears to be great land to uMgungdolovu's NE including 3 gems and several calendar commerce resources to be had. I'd aim the barb city there and claim that land over HC's, even if it likely gets claimed by someone else. Distance should be less of a consideration with only 30% maintenance eventually.

PS: Trade for both maths and alphabet ofcourse, just try to do it with AI's low in tech/tech potential and likely to be your first victim.

 

[ese-aSH]

PS: Trade for both maths and alphabet ofcourse, just try to do it with AI's low in tech/tech potential and likely to be your first victim.

the WORLD is islamic, going at war with any islamic civ may have deeper conssequences for all the game.
I dont think its a good idea to become the world vilain at 150BC.

maybe its too early to attack HC, but remember that he seem to be very weak up to now, and de Gaulle will attack him eventually.

A compromise could be to expand peacefully and restore economy for 1 more round, but get prepared to follow whoever into a war against HC.
there again the shrine MUST be taken, so that sisiutil can spread confucianism and create religious tensions, otherwise it is likely to be a peacemonger game.
De Gaulle can reveal a strong ally, I'd rather do whatever he ask. Same with Wang, he techs very fast, and must not be negleted so that he shares everything.

 

[madscientist]

My advice is to trade HBR to Wang for Math and tech construction. He cannot trade HBR then and as long as you maintain good relations with WK (who is generally the easiest of this bunch to get along with) you should not be seeing any Korean HAs attacking your cities. Jumbo's and cats are great weapons and should flatten HC without any need of spies. They also allow you the ability to hit WK (protective) and Hammy (Bowmen) if they decide to backstab. Finally, WK does not need to be given pottery which opens up cottages to a financial leader.

So trade for math, tech construction, then tech alphabet.

 

[Tyrant Roger]

I agree with Madscientist. You don't need to build more cities. You need to take your next cohort of cities. Maybe the barb city as a warmup and then HC's cities. This will take time, however, so cats are essential as are elephants. Maybe you should take a no wonder pledge this game; it would be in keeping with the civ who gets his wonders by borrowing them. Build impis and HA until you have construction and then cats and phants and you will be ready to attack. HC's iron should be your first target. After that he will only have archers and city defenses. You win.

 

[Quotey]

You do not need Alphabet for the GL. Literature comes from Aesthetics now. So forgoing Alphabet is fine, spies aren't needed when you have open borders.

 

[Porphyrius]

Most Ai's run islam as their state religion, so?
If we are talking about diplo effects i should note that declaring on HC will still net the "-1 you declared on our buddy" with both DeGaull and Peter as they are pleased with HC anyway, while i.e. declaring on Wang wont cause trouble with DeGaulle or HC.
In other words there's more to diplomacy than religion, and you cant excpect to aim domination and be everyones favored.

Sisiutil does have a rightful worry about the AP, however there's religions to be found and cities to be settled till then so i am not so sure it 'll be tuned at islam or who will build it.



We can get a couple more cities without CoL/courthouses, all matters considered but not keep what a full scale war would net (against HC or whoever). Thus CoL is a bigger priority than cats/elephs.
BTW, no tech brokering is on and with impis around AIs focusing on HAs is rather desirable.

 

[LlamaCat]

if you had settled the capital one East on the plains you would have more hills and better production (and the iron mine, but no way we could have known that at the time)

the reason I mention this is you appear to be building the Pyramids? I'm not sure why, considering the warmonger strategy being pursued. In which case, I think researching Masonry was a completely unnecessary tech diversion and sets you back further.

On this difficulty level it seems to be taking on too much. I would abandon it and wait for the lost hammers to be converted into cash which you desperately need. I assume if you leave him alive long enough, just pillaging his iron, HC will build it anyway?

 

[Validator]

the reason I mention this is you appear to be building the Pyramids? I'm not sure why, considering the warmonger strategy being pursued. In which case, I think researching Masonry was a completely unnecessary tech diversion and sets you back further.

On this difficulty level it seems to be taking on too much. I would abandon it and wait for the lost hammers to be converted into cash which you desperately need. I assume if you leave him alive long enough, just pillaging his iron, HC will build it anyway?

According to the log Peter just completed the Pyramids. Sisiutil only got a small amount of gold out of it, so he wasn't building it for long.

 

[madscientist]

I would forget all wonders for the moment, even the GL. Leverage the UB, and expand by claiming Inca territory.

Build a stable in one city and produce combat I, shock HAs which when paired with Impi make excellent pillagers. Send these groups towards the rear Incan cities while your main stack of swords/axes/cats/jumbos marches slower for assaulting the nearby cities.

Once the Dumbass agressive AIs start fighting each other (you really should be bribing them to do this) you'll excel at wonders. Any AIs have "we have enough on our Hands" yet??? If not, can you bribe Hammy into attacking WK after the trade? Korean HAs versus Agressive AI should slow each other down a bit without one coming out on top (Wang's protective and Hammy has Bowmen).

 

[parachute4u]

nearly everyone (even huana himself!) is "we have enough on our hands right now".
I'd trade for alphabet and wait for the war, researching mathematics and construction as fast as possible (with building research and hiring scientists) and get ready to whip/chop an army as soon as construction is done.
I think you can afford to keep the incan cities. You already have lots of cottages.

 

[Validator]

Should I wait for Construction for Cats and Hephalumps, or should I just bloody GET ON WITH IT?!?

I definitely think you should get on with something. I had a look at the save and I'm rather confused about what your overall strategy is in this game (or if you even have one ).

Given your low research rate I was expecting to see minimal economic development. Instead I discovered that the thing that's killing your economy is unit support. You have 23 military units and 8 workers (for 4 cities ). You're paying more in unit support than city maintenance at this point. If you're going to build up a sizable military this early you really should be planning on using it ASAP and not just let it sit around burning gold.

Another point of concern is that all of the AIs have more cities than you. (8 for Washington, 7 for DeGaulle, Wang Kon and Peter, 6 for Huayna and 5 for Hammurabi). Even if you succeed in taking out Huayna in the not so distant future you're only going to end up even (at best) with the other AIs in # of cities. And Huayna's land doesn't look all that great to me. (Did you notice that Cuzco is founded one tile from the coast leaving 3 low value coast tiles in the BFC? )

There are 2 barb cities up river from Bulawayo that would make good additions to the Zulu empire. The closer one (which hasn't been spotted yet) would make a great commerce city (7 FPs and 5 riverside grassland by my count) and Thracian offers three resources that you don't have yet (sugar, spices and rice) in addition to a couple more elephants and overall good terrain. If you're not going to attack Huayna immediately why don't you use your military to take those two?

Although you may need to be a bit careful. In case you didn't notice Huayna has "enough on his hands". He doesn't like you, Wang Kon and Washington so I suppose any of the three could be his target. But you were much lower than either of the others in power before you finished researching HBR. Did you happen to notice an Incan invasion force massing somewhere while your impis were scouting Huayna's lands? (And in that regard there are 2 Incan cities that haven't been spotted yet, although I think you'll find them ASAP. One is obviously NNW of Nobamba and the other appears to be in the south between Tiwanaku and Ollantaytambo.)

Tech wise you need to think about how you're going to acquire Monarchy. You've already run up against the happy cap in most of your cities and you don't have any real hopes of raising it much in the near future without HR. Huayna does have Monarchy (as evidenced by the wineries), so you maybe could get it in a peace deal. But before then you'll need to get the pre-reqs either by research or by trade.

I would make the trade for Math with Wang Kon and then look to get Alphabet from one of the others. Maybe try researching it for a turn or two and see if they'll give it to you for HBR. Or maybe you could research Meditation and package it with HBR for Alphabet. Also you've only recently converted to Islam, so your "Brothers of the faith" diplo bonus with the AIs should increase in the coming turns which might make them more amenable to a trade.

Going forward Construction should be a priority. In addition to the catapults and war elephants it will probably be a good trading tech. Another possible way you might get Monarchy.

But you should mostly be thinking about how you're going to expand in the next round. 4 cities in 155 BC isn't enough.

 

[madscientist]

nearly everyone (even huana himself!) is "we have enough on our hands right now"..

Gotta love the agressive AI!!! Make sure you leave something home as you very may well be dogpiled soon. War elephants also make great city defenders. If I recall Washington and HC have closer borders than you and HC, so bribe GW into attacking the inca's first and wait for his invite. That should draw alot of HCs forces from your front.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I agree with a lot of what Validator just said.

You have a very sizable Military draining your economy, so you might as well get some good use out of them before they become outdated.

I see a three-phase war with HC.

1. Take the Math trade with WK.
   
2. DoW HC. Focus on capturing his outlying cities and pillaging everything in sight. (That gold should help fund research.)
3. Self-research Alphabet until an AI will take HBR for it.
4. Self-research Construction.
5. Bribe HC for peace -- hopefully taking Monarchy with you.
6. Build Catapults & Jumbos during peacetime.
7. Self-research CoL. In the very unlikely chance you can trade HBR for it, do that. *(see EDIT)
8. After HC has built his shrine, DoW HC and conquer Cuzco.
9. Thus begins the "Age of Religions".
10. Expand East & West towards American soil.

WK looks like the best "Big Brother", so keep him very close, IMO. Keep WK pleased, and your only chokepoints should be just north of Washington and across the sea.

EDIT: It appears Hammurabi is the closest to teching CoL (he Can Research it) -- though it's likely he's after Theology. Instead of self-researching some of Alphabet to make the trade, self-research Meditation (you'll need Monasteries anyhow) to soften up Alphabet <> HBR. Then when you acquire Priesthood, you might be able to get CoL from Hammy with HBR and Meditation.

EDIT2: Don't be the first to research CoL.

Spread Confucianism to Washington to break him off the block, and make him the next target.

It appears if you make haste, you should be able to settle the better majority of the bottom third of the map over the next few rounds.


-- my 2

 

[fjordan]

I think most of you forgot that the "No tech brokering" is on. So the only one Sis can trade alphabet with is WK. I would go fot Math though, it looks like you will need to improve the quality of your army. Apparently the quantity is already at maximum. Best plan seems to me to take the barb cities and wait and see which wars you can profit most of with your cats and jumbo's.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I think most of you forgot that the "No tech brokering" is on. So the only one Sis can trade alphabet with is WK. I would go fot Math though, it looks like you will need to improve the quality of your army. Apparently the quantity is already at maximum. Best plan seems to me to take the barb cities and wait and see which wars you can profit most of with your cats and jumbo's.

Not everybody got it from Wang Kon.

It appears only Hammurabi got it by trade from WK (hence why he can't trade it to S). Everybody else self-researched it (hence why they Can and Will trade Alphabet to S).

Spoiler Foreign Advisor::Techs :

 

[Sisiutil]

According to the log Peter just completed the Pyramids. Sisiutil only got a small amount of gold out of it, so he wasn't building it for long.

I only built it for a turn or two while I waited for HBR to finish. I'm aware that my research is low and that the units were contributing to it, but units were all I had available to build at that point, except for the 'mids.

The plethora of units comes from two things: first of all, obviously, I'm planning on going to war; second, Aggressive AI is on, so I'm expecting everyone else to have a large stack of units. The fact that even in spite of Zulu's large military I was still behind in power indicates that the AggAI is, indeed, kicking in. Though no, I haven't seen many units in Incan territory, so my Impis will continue snooping around.

As for the overall strategy, I have been following what's been recommended here: iron for Impis, followed by HBR for HAs. I don't think it's too late to get some use out of those units. Their delay was caused by the dearth of copper nearby. The other option was to ignore IW and Impis altogether, which flies in the face of the purpose of the ALC, or to regenerate the map, which I'd rather not do. If I'm facing a few extra challenges this time, so be it.

It sounds like several of you are pushing for going after the barb cities while researching towards Cats to attack Huayna. Sounds good.

The slider is low but research is being buoyed up by a few scientists. Maybe we got distracted by the flood plains and should have gone SE? It's probably too late to change tacks now, though. If I'd been playing this off-line, I probably would have gone farms and SE, but most of you advocated cottaging the flood plains, so cottages it is.

The next round should be played and posted on Tuesday or Wednesday at the latest.

 

[Scarredroman]

Trading for maths and researching construction whilst taking the two barbarian cities seems the best course of action. You'll get up to the magic six cities and use up some of your units taking the cities reducing maintenance.

Your real good fortune was that HC was so weak. You've not had too many breaks in this ALC.