ALC Game 21: Zulus/Shaka

[BARBEERIAN]

I'd go for the HBR for Math trade. Your tech rate isn't high enough that you'll be researching it and trading it away before many AI's pick it up by themselves or from other AI's.

I wouldn't bother waiting for Cats / Ele's to attack. He's defending with Archers, you have Iron and are Aggressive so your swords won't have a problem cracking him open. Wait too long and he'll get his Iron hooked up then you don't necessarily have as much of an advantage. If you happen to finish researching construction before the war is over then by all means send some Cats but it should be quicker than that.

 

[rupertmonkey]

The slider is low but research is being buoyed up by a few scientists. Maybe we got distracted by the flood plains and should have gone SE? It's probably too late to change tacks now, though.

Why is it too late? You just got pottery like 40 turns ago. Go SE. Since you're planning on warring throughout much of the game (or at least people have been assuming that you are so planning) it will also make you less vulnerable to pillaging.

 

[d.a.oconnell]

2 Comments:

1. I suggest rushing sooner rather than later for the points mentioned above. You are Aggressive - Why wait when you can rush with Swords promoted to cover? You want to attack before he gets walls up as well (I don't know if he has that capability yet - what tech is that?)

2. When I rex via war or peacefully, I find scientist specialists to be the the lifesaver for my research. A couple great scientists can pop you some of those hard to get techs pretty quickly if you are struggling to wait for your cottages to grow. I'm not sure if you can spare the production for scientists on this map, but it's something to consider.

 

[Jet]

I wouldn't wait for the next military tech nor would I move the stack from the Incan border over to the barb cities. I would attack in 3 turns. That's how long it will take the chariot/impi to get from Bulawayo to the forest outside Ollantayambo. You can also whip another Swordsman or something in Nobamba. I would aim to get Ollantayambo and maybe cow/wine/wine, but I wouldn't worry too much about cow/wine/wine because I'd want to take the barb cities as soon as possible after attacking Peru. Just trim him back. Those cities have enough food and commerce to support themselves. The chariot/impi in uMgungundlovu can help too.

You don't need Monarchy, although it would be great to get for peace. You can get more happy from furs, calendar, and markets. For that reason as well as Catapults and Elephants you should get Mathematics. Currency will also be valuable because you know all the AIs and with most of them Islamic you can get good trade routes.

You should not build the Great Library. Too far off the path of anything else useful for you. Just run some specialists somewhere.

 

[fjordan]

Not everybody got it from Wang Kon.

It appears only Hammurabi got it by trade from WK (hence why he can't trade it to S). Everybody else self-researched it (hence why they Can and Will trade Alphabet to S).

You are right. My mistake.

 

[DrJambo]

Finally, a really challenging ALC, thanks in part to AggAI and No Tech Brokering! AggAI generally forces the human to build and maintain a larger standing military. This really hurts because of the increased upkeep costs, which are of course slashed for the AI at Emperor level.

Validator's speaking a lot of sense when he says you should be using this costly military. In that respect I'd seriously consider going for the valuable barbarian city(s) first. One offers a plethora of useful resources which you don't yet have and there's also 2 gems which should be vital for not only raising the happiness level but also for maintaining income/tech rate. You also have 8 workers, which is a little excessive for 4 cities, and so developing these captured cities quickly should be easy.

Courthouses and CoL should be paramount if you are wanting to initiate and maintain early warring against HC, probably even moreso because you're neither financial nor organised. If you've got a higher power rating than HC and he's still defending with archers, I'd certainly leave Construction for the time being.

Good luck and good ALC!

 

[TM Moot]

I'm a sucker for always researching just one more tech before invading someone. Not sure if we can afford to do that here.

Why not whip/chop one more troop of soldiers, invade H.C., deny him any key resources (bronze, iron, horse, ivory) and pillage like mad.

Take any cities you can, if too heavily defended, then trap him in his cities until you can roll out some cats.

Once his lands are yours, polish off the barb cities and then review any further expansion oppurtunities.

 

[Daedal]

IMO the problem here is opportunity cost. Your options are to attack HC, attack barbs, or live in peace a while longer. If you attack HC you may cripple your already fragile economy, lose units, and ultimately find yourself on the wrong end of an AI dogpile. If you attack barbs, you can't immediately attack HC and by the time you get around to attacking him he may have longbows (or at least something better than archers). Peace is probably the worst option because you don't have a sustainable economy right now so peace will only make you fall behind.

Barbs or HC? How about both? Your units are already on the HC border so grab as many of those cities as is feasible before HC buffs up. When you make peace with HC, send a force as quickly as possible to the barb cities, then take them and return to war with HC. Hopefully you'll have catapults for the second war with HC because by then he'll have much larger stacks.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 4: 155 BC to 460 AD (41 Turns)

A lot more happened in this round than in previous ones! Action, action, action! Exciting!

(Okay, I haven't exactly conquered the world yet, but at least there was some fisticuffs.)

I started the round by making the tech trade I and several of you preferred.

I then took the advice some of you made to research Alphabet for a few turns. Sure enough, three turns later, I was able to trade HBR for it:

I also traded HBR to Peter for... Sailing. Yeah, not much need for that tech on this map, especially given my current position, but a tech is a tech.

I also decided to make an adjustment to my espionage, throwing all my EPs at Huayna in anticipation of the war against him. Frankly, I should have done this many, many turns ago.

I also took the advice several of you offered regarding the barb cities to my northeast and captured both of them.

Building priorities in both cities were monuments then Ikhandas.

I finished researching my next key military tech:

... and started building Catapults and War Elephants. And none too soon, as it turned out!

I now set my eyes on a bee-line to Code of Laws. The problem was I had at least two other techs in the way: either Meditation or Polytheism, then Priesthood. Fortunately, I was able to finagle a shortcut.

I first made a tech trade with Hammurabi. A bit lop-sided, but worth it under the circumstances. Hammy isn't really a threat to me at the moment anyway--he's too far away, Pleased, and is hanging around at the bottom of the scoreboard.

That opened up the path to Priesthood. This is where converting to everyone else's religion and getting everybody happy with me came in handy.

Woo-hoo! Priesthood for free! BTW, Hammy later donated Meditation to me, as well.

I've had some discussions in other threads with players at the lower difficulty levels looking to move up, and several of them adhere to the strategy of founding and adopting their own religion. Well, take note, kids: sometimes it's wise just to adopt the most popular creed, sit back, and accrue the diplomatic benefits. Later in this game, once I have Currency, I'll be taking advantage of my fellow Muslims by hitting them up for a friendly donation every now and again. Allahu Akhbar, indeed.

Just when I was thinking it was about time to declare war on Huayna, he beat me to the punch.

He came at Nobamba with a stack:

However, Nobamba had walls and all my units were holed up in there, getting ready to pounce on Ollantaytambo. And the Incans didn't have Construction for Catapults yet! It turns out he Aggressive AI is being too aggressive for its own good. Huayna lost every unit he sent into my territory--most in futile attacks on Nobamba, the remainder when my units counter-attacked out of the city. I lost none. And earned a Great General in the process, which I quickly attached to a Combat I/Medic I Chariot for a MASH unit. It needs to win one more easy battle to get to level 6 so I can build West Point later on in the game.

Speaking of Ollantaytambo...

I kept it. It will eventually give me a 2nd sheep resource and wine, too. I figured I'll eventually be able to afford it anyway--I'm running a bit of a hybrid economy right now, where several of my cities have a mix of cottages and farms, and virtually all are running 2 scientists. I'll gradually convert to more of a specialist economy once I have Currency and can run merchant specialists, and once courthouses put me back in the red. You can see how this is turning into an SE just from the necessity of warring for plunder money to keep the coffers full and my units from going on strike!

I managed to send a 2-unit pillaging stack over to Huayna's sole metal resource:

Unfortunately, I lost them to counter-attacks on the next turn, so I figure Huayna will have that tile mined again before long. I think it may be necessary to have a stack of 2 Impis and 2 HAs to successfully pillage his iron and horses (and his furs along the way--may as well cause him grief through unhappy citizens).

Finally!

Now I can build courthouses to put my slider back in the red and to generate valuable EPs. Too bad Shaka isn't Organized for cheap courthouses, but you can't have everything.

Washington came to me right away with a proposal:

Which I accepted, but I haven't changed civics to Hereditary Rule just yet.

And by the way, I was the first one to CoL, so I founded a religion.

Just so we have all the information we need for informed decision-making, I went to see Huayna about what I could get for peace:

Interesting. We have this and several other decision points to discuss, but I'll ask about those in the next post, my tried-and-true "State of the world" update.

 

[Sisiutil]

The State of the World, 460 AD

First off, a look at the Domestic Advisor.

Decision point number one: what should I be building at this point--courthouses or Catapults? I.e, focus on military or the economy, stupid? With the slider firmly in the red, I think courthouses have to be a priority. Whipping and chopping will probably help.

Civics:

Decision point number two: should I change civics now? What about getting Monotheism from Huayna first, then changing wholesale to HR, Caste System, and Organized Religion? Going to OR would also make Missionaries to spread Islam a priority--requiring me to juggle builds between them, units, and courthouses.

Relations:

Decision point number three: we've already chosen Wang Kon as a triangle diplomacy partner (for now). Unfortunately I scored a demerit with him for not DOWing on Huayna when he asked; my units were in transit back from the barb cities, so I just wasn't ready. But he's still pleased. Should I invite him into a war with Huayna (he made peace a few turns back) to accrue mutual military struggle bonuses with him?

And what about the second triangle partner? Washington is a possibility, as is Peter, though both are nearby. Peter is going to own those gem tiles near Thracian, and I'll want those eventually. De Gaulle? I don't like to partner with the board leader if I can avoid it, but France is far away and I therefore won't be attacking him anytime soon.

Active trade deals:

It made sense to trade the stone, I thought. I wasn't using it and it won't do George much good--certainly far less than ivory, which I feel more comfortable trading to the low man on the totem pole who's across the inland sea from me. Even if he is Aggressive.

Resources:

There's not much on offer at the moment, but some of the others have Calendar, so in the next round I expect to see several juicy resources showing up--and at this time, I have little to offer in trade!

Trade route income and civics:

Technologies:

Hammy won't take CoL for anything, so he's obviously part-way through researching it himself--an effect of tech brokering, donchaknow. Peter will trade Calendar, but for too high a price:

So, decision point number four: what to research next? Does it make sense to pull the same trick with Calendar that I did with Alphabet--that is, research it for 2-4 turns until Peter's willing to trade it for CoL? What about Currency? Wang has it and won't trade it, Hammy has it and can't, so I suspect he got it from the Korean. Researching it on my own is risky; I wouldn't be surprised if several other AIs are researching it, or about to, at this point.

(Keep in mind that Calendar is indeed a worthwhile tech for me at this point: Thracian's borders expand on the next turn, giving me access to sugar and spices for +2 in all my cities!)

Mind you, I have my first Great Scientist hanging around in Ulundi. So, decision point number five: Should I use him to lightbulb Philosophy? Then, should I be willing to trade it to all and sundry, or should I jealously guard it to help me pursue Liberalism? That's a low-priority pursuit for me, I think, just like wonders--but if I complete my conversion to a SE, I could possibly achieve it largely through Great Scientists while devoting my research to military techs like Machinery, Engineering, Guilds, etc. But let's get specific: what should be my tech path for the next round?

Military advisor:

And power:

The main military decision at this point is whether or not to accept peace with Huayna for Monotheism. Keep in mind that I currently can't get that tech from anyone else--though I might be able to get it from Hammy Philosophy, but would that be worth it? Or would 10 turns of peace just allow Huayna to rebuild his military? Of course, it could allow me to do the same. Another concern is that Huayna might tech to Feudalism for Longbows in the meantime. Not an insurmountable obstacle, but troublesome.

EDIT: And I almost forgot--city specialization! Sometime in the next round I'm hoping to obtain Literature, not for the GL, but for the Heroic and National Epics. So which city should be the GP farm, which one the military city? And what about long-term--are there any obvious targets for the Moai Statues, even Ironworks? I know the latter is a long way off, but I like to plan this way in advance so I can get that city ready--growing it to maximum size while putting the watermills, workshops, and production- and health-boosting improvements in place.

So you can see why I stopped when I did! Lots of thing to discuss and decide upon. I will probably not play the next round until I feel these points have been adequately discussed and I have a plan to move forward, so that could be a few days--depending on how long it takes everyone to chime in. So get to it, gang!

 

[Killroyan]

With the economy down the drain I would pursue peace, take monotheism and make the civ switch. Then start whipping the courthouses like mad. Wow. That is harsh. -11 at 0% research rate. But nothing you can't recover from. Too bad you can't trade currency yet. Bulbing philo in a no tech brokering game is very nice I guess. It has a good trade value. If you are not going to build the great library and if you don't have a research center for the acadamy then it is the best way to go I guess. Funny to see though that Shaka is actually tech leader almost.

Can't say a thing about city specialization since I am at work but the game looks solid so far. Now get your economy back up.

 

[Validator]

After looking at the save it's obvious that the economy needs some immediate work. -11 gpt at 0% means you're 13 turns from a strike. And there's no unit supply at moment, so moving your stack to attack Huayna's cities will only make the economy worse. I don't think you have any choice but to accept the peace deal at this point and try to get the economy under control before proceeding.

BTW, why did you decide to keep Ollantaytambo? It seems to be a pretty worthless city (even once you remove the cultural pressure) and it's just making your economic problems worse.

A switch to HR to allow city growth seems a no-brainer. But I would avoid Caste System (for now at least) since it will prevent whipping courthouses (and military units ). There's no savings in terms of turns of anarchy anyway by making the two switches at the same time. OR also doesn't look like it's worth it at this point since you don't have state religion in all cities and it's high upkeep won't help the economy. Again since there's no anarchy savings you can switch later when it would be helpful.

One thing you didn't mention in the update is that Peter and DeGaulle declared war on Washington. Peter in fact captured San Francisco, which unfortunately is going to put some cultural pressure on Thracian. The bad news is that as the result of all these AI wars you're starting to rack up some "You refused to help" diplo hits which isn't helping the situation.

Another important point is that the AIs expanded rather aggressively in that round, which pretty much eliminated your peaceful expansion options. (The Iron/sheep city in the south between Ulundi and uM... is still available, but not a high priority). One point to keep in mind is that you now have all the AIs with the exception of Hammurabi right on your doorstep. This includes DeGaulle.

City specialization is a bit tough. You don't really have a strong production city so HE's a tough choice. Cuzco looks like it will have more production potential than any of your current cities, but I don't know if you want to wait that long.

I suppose you could farm spam Saxon and turn that into an NE boosted GP farm. I had thought it would be a good cottage spammed city for Oxford, but if you're going to commit to SE then it's probably your highest food city (even though it has no food resources ).

I can't see Moai statues being useful in this game. I wouldn't worry about IW at this point. There will be many additional cities joining the Zulu empire by then.

 

[ese-aSH]

why did you put your GG on a chariot I told you it was better on impies, giving the +1 move special promotions to keep the advantage of mobility

+ Ollantaytambo : bad choice I guess -> now your economy is RED, you may not be able to support 1 more city. I would have rather razed Ollantaytambo and take another city from HC.
I'm not sure for peace right now, you have not earned much in this war, and HC did not loose much either. He is still powerfull and hates you, I would stay at war and pillage him as much as I can (with no risks : only 3-4 units stacks): cut the roads down and destroy all cottages. Do not take 1 more city, just raze one is the opportunity comes.

 

[Fetch]

Sis-

You mentioned "triangle partner" in your state of the world. Can you elaborate on what this is and how you can use it to your advantage?

 

[popejubal]

why did you put your GG on a chariot I told you it was better on impies, giving the +1 move special promotions to keep the advantage of mobility

Impi start with better movement than chariots (2 move + Mobility vs. 2 move).
Impi can take medic 3 just like Chariots.
Impi can take Wood 3 where Chariots cannot.

Impi make way better medics than Chariots. Wood III plus the +1 Move promotion is just 4 promotions (same as Chariots). With Agressive giving Combat I free, you'll get Wood III plus Medic plus the +1 Move. With Morale and Wood III, every tile on the board will cost only 1 movement, so even forested hills won't slow you down!

 

[oyzar]

Also with wood3 and medic3 you heal even faster than medic3 alone... Not to mention that with agressive impis it cost less to get these promos...

 

[Chrispy]

EDIT: And I almost forgot--city specialization! Sometime in the next round I'm hoping to obtain Literature, not for the GL, but for the Heroic and National Epics. So which city should be the GP farm, which one the military city? And what about long-term--are there any obvious targets for the Moai Statues, even Ironworks? I know the latter is a long way off, but I like to plan this way in advance so I can get that city ready--growing it to maximum size while putting the watermills, workshops, and production- and health-boosting improvements in place.

Without downloading the save, I don't think I see a screenshot of Saxon anywhere. So I can't speak to that city, but I think Nobamba or Thracian make sense for HE. Thracian makes more sense for the Ironworks given the riverside location for added health and levees.

For NE, I'd lean toward uMg or Ulundi if you move the capital elsewhere.

Keep in mind I am not seriously considering any Incan cities at this point, although some could be candidates. Moai would obviously go to an Incan city on the water once a good candidate is captured.

 

[Tyrant Roger]

Well done, Sis. I second Validator's suggestions. Take Mono, go OR, and whip courthouses everywhere. Rebuild military to attack HC when the time is ripe. You will need more cities when your economy rebounds and HC is the logical person to borrow them from. If war weariness isn't too bad, perhaps you could attack when the 10 turns are up. But this time you must pillage the iron and hold it. Enough cats can deal with anything HC might have including longbows.

Bulb Philo, I don't see a better use for the GS. You need trade bait.

 

[madscientist]

I'll say it again, the agressive AI is as dumb as a stump. They also like to go to war, so I suggest getting everyone to dogpile HC before they decide to dogpile you, buddy or not.

I suggest taking peace, change your ciivics, get courthouses in your cities, tech currency, trade for calender. Once you recover go crack some more Incan heads, then consider hitting Wang next. Get the financials out of the way IMO, which would put you in the driver's seat with the UB.

Also, not sure if I would have traded CoL, that's a major economic strength which the other Ais would be forced to tech on their own. GW has it, do not trade to otehr AIs.

 

[Artichoker]

Peace looks like the better option, for now.

Meanwhile, I'd make sure that all available resources are hooked up ASAP. Looking at your screenshots, I think you can get much better trades for your resources. 2 GP/turn for a resource does not look like a very good exchange rate. You should be looking to improve that exchange rate when the opportunity presents itself.

Like another poster said, it's mind-boggling how you can be at 0% research and still be losing money. One thing you can do to help that is build courthouses. Wipe out HC before the age of Knights. Look for lucrative trades for your resources.

After destroying HC, you can go for Organized Religion and catch up on your buildings.