ALC Game 21: Zulus/Shaka

[Porphyrius]

@popejubal:
You have a solid point about WoodIII, though i think the importance of mobility on a devoted medic unit is really exaggerated. I would still go with an impi but remember to accompany him with other combat promoted impis/pikes later to avoid the medic chosen to defend against mounts.



Generally i'm starting to get concened about recent developments. Aside from economy in red we are also dead last in GNP and production ,while miliatry and land is mediocre a well. (BTW, isnt demographic screen informative enough to make it to state of the world posts )
Cant say wonder focusing is the reason for this either.

There's 2 reason for the poor economy.
-Not respecting courthouses enough. Yes we got CoL before all, AIs but at emperor we have more trouble from maintenance/teching than the AIs so what matters is we went to 7 cities over wide distance without courthouses.
Those cats/elephs from constuction have yet to see much action, so was it wise to get them first?
We thus have the military to keep warring but a crashing economy.
-Hiring scientists to speed up CoL while expecting to get good from the same cities. While it was the proper thing to do while speed teching CoL (since it had to wait after constuction) it now commits a good portion of the working population to inefficiency producing mostly GPP he have no immidiate use for.



One measure is obvious: get those courthouses built ASAP. Assing specialists back to /, whip and chop. And ofcourse put all military (above all else) in hold.

The other is where i disagre with Validator. HR isnt going to do much RIGHT NOW. There are cities close or at the happy cap but those cities could do with a well timed whiping of a courthouse.
Caste system OTOH will let rus run 2-4 merchants instead of scientists to improve the economy RIGHT NOW while the courthouses are built. Plus the possibility to temporarily hire artists in your new acqusitions that will be under stiff pressure.

Otherwise tech slowly calendar and trade the rest to aleviate immidiate issues.



As for the war i'd recomenr to at least take Corih...whatever before commiting to peace. That way you 'll at least net sea access and one wine for your troubles.
Attempting to add HC capital to the list now, or continuing the war for long is very risky though. He likely has rehooked iron and now has contsruction as well, so wait more than a few turns and his own cats/elephs will be here to stir trouble.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

WWSD?

Peace does look like the better option, but we all know Shaka is balls-to-the-walls when it comes to Aggressive warfare.

Even though I know you won't listen in this online ALC, I think you should continue the war with HC until the bitter end.

With 143 in the coffers, you can keep going for at least another 10 turns. Even the meager city of Ollantaytambo netted you 103 , so we can presume each new captured/razed city will grant you another ~8 turns of funded warfare.

As long as you can capture at least one city every 8 turns, you'll be okay.

In a worst case scenario, you can switch civics to save yourself a turn of maintenance for that little "oompf" -- possibly even adopting CS to run Merchants until the end of the war.

EDIT: If you do invite other Civs to join you on the front lines, ensure you're still on them. Giving any of "your" cities to the rapidly-expanding AI might prove fatal.


-- my 2

 

[whakamole]

If you think you can make one last push with your current military, I would suggest evaluating a strike at Cuzco. From the screenshot of your iron pillaging, you can see that HC has built the Kong Miao in his holy city. If you can capture this one last city, you can not only reap the benefits of plunder money to sustain your economy while you get those courthouses up ASAP... but you can also obtain shrine income for sustained help.

After this one capture, then sue for peace and extort Monotheism, then, once Cuzco is out of revolt, you can go to OR and begin spamming Confucian missionaries all over the world to assist your finances. This will keep you from using up your GPs on priest specialists to get your Hindu shrine up, and you can focus on merchant specialists with a later revolt to Caste System.

The risks I see are cultural pressure from Tiwanaku/Machu Picchu and having too anemic a military to capture and sustain defense of the city. But with five cats, you should be able to knock down its cultural defenses and use 10 turns of peace to finish those courthouse builds and get a wave of units underway to take care of HC... then get missionaries going to take care of your finances.

Another issue with Cuzco is that HC, in infinite AI wisdom, has again found a way to place the city one tile off the coast. (Seriously, how come our community has not come up with an acronym for this? We have one for everything else. I think I can find a use for "OTOTC" in nearly every Civ game I play.)

As for research, once you or the other civs can get to currency, you'll be able to make additional trades of your surplus resources to obtain this cash. So if you think most civs are teching to this, I say you find a good trade tech to research. If you can't wait, then pick this one up first and sell off your sheep and corn once civs come online to buy... and if your health is sufficient, sell off your sole source of wheat, too. You can always cancel the deal once you're back in the black.

Finally, espionage. Researching against HC is good ONLY if you have a plan on how to use the points. You may not amass enough to make a difference in the time it'll take you to kill him off. I would focus on building up EPs against the tech leader... then once you have courthouses up and EPs rolling in, you can begin tech stealing to bolster your research rate and to stay competitive. Hammy is a great target right now, because he's practically writing you love letters, and his distance from your territory means he likely won't be assigning his EPs against you.

 

[kcmarkwell]

I actually just got done with a similar game on emperor (except mine was normal speed). I suggest whipping courthouses immediately in about every city except the capital. After courthouse is whipped, produce nothing but military, mixture of HA, Impis, and cats. Don't give the incan peace yet, you still can do alot more damage to him.

Play defensive until courthouses are whipped then you will be able to afford alot more of his captures cities. Once city turns from revolt, whip courthouse immediately, then ikanda, then something for culture.

 

[civ4legs]

I like Whakamole's suggestion of taking cuzco if possible, but clearly getting our economy back in the black is VERY important. Actually, Cuzco will be under EXTREME cultural pressure from 2 close cities, so I would wait until you can take all 3 at once...

Is this a time to burn the GS for a golden age? We need a bump in the economy, we have lots of courthouses to build, and we have at least one civic change to make (if we have/can get the requisite techs for OR and HR). I was one of the masses crying about all the civics changes a couple ALCs ago; I do my best to minimize anarchy.

I like to build academies more than bulb, but I don't think you have a science city, really, do you?

I am a believer in the theory that letting the AIs found religions is good (in general) because it tends to make them fight amongst themselves a lot more. by the same token, a well timed bulb and trade could bring you all the way back to parity...

 

[Scarredroman]

You're going to have another GP in 10 turns. There's no reason you can't use your current GS to start a Golden Age. That'll take care of the -11 a turn.

I think you should take advantage of Huanya's DoW on you. If you give him 10 turns of peace, he'll settle what looks like empty land east of you and west of him and present the two front war dilemma to Shaka next time. You might want to send a settler and coverforce to bottle up HC.

I think I'd swich to research Mono so that the change of Civics can be done before the GA ends. You should be able to combine military builds with whipping/chopping courthouses before your GA ends.

The tech deal with Peter seems one-sided, but it would, I think, make him friendly, but you can make immediate use Calendar. You need Peter as a friend right now.

 

[rupertmonkey]

I agree with taking Cuzco, and you should raze that winey city NE of it, both to get some easy cash and to relieve cultural pressure.

 

[dankok8]

Doesn't seem like there'll be many wars in this game .. everyone is pleased with each other except the heathen Huayna who should be wiped out fairly soon even without your intervention - he's likely everyone's worst enemy; declaring on anyone else can be dangerous as it may cause everyone to come to the victim's aid .. not a great religious situation for someone trying a domination victory for sure. Get peace for Monotheism, fix your economy and then resume the war with Huayna and try to not get many civs involved so you can keep most of the land for yourself.

 

[Artichoker]

Doesn't seem like there'll be many wars in this game .. everyone is pleased with each other except the heathen Huayna who should be wiped out fairly soon even without your intervention - he's likely everyone's worst enemy; declaring on anyone else can be dangerous as it may cause everyone to come to the victim's aid .. not a great religious situation for someone trying a domination victory for sure. Get peace for Monotheism, fix your economy and then resume the war with Huayna and try to not get many civs involved so you can keep most of the land for yourself.

Disagree about "coming to the victim's aid". Almost everyone is Islam now, which means there are substantial diplomatic bonuses for having the same religion. These bonuses will counteract the penalties incurred by "attacking a friend", as long as you remain in the same religion.

Now if your forces are weakened after starting a war, then that's a different story...

 

[popejubal]

@popejubal:
You have a solid point about WoodIII, though i think the importance of mobility on a devoted medic unit is really exaggerated. I would still go with an impi but remember to accompany him with other combat promoted impis/pikes later to avoid the medic chosen to defend against mounts.

Well, I don't see Mobility as being an enormous asset, but it certainly is handy on a 3-move unit. Mostly, I was just pointing out that an Impi is strictly better than a Chariot in almost every way as a medic unit. The only significant downside is that an Impi is a better defender than a Chariot, but that's only going to matter for a very short amount of time (since I expect the war against HC is the only war that will involve Impi soldiers given the amount of time it will take to digest the significantly larger empire).

As for the near future, don't forget that distance from the palace is a big chunk of city maintenance. I'd suggest building/whipping Courthouses in the outer rim cities as soon as that's available while continuing to build units in the core cities where production is high enough to make an impact on the war.

Once each city is connected to your trade network, they'll be producing trade routes and they can each work a merchant after a civics change if you need the cash. You're losing money at 0% research right now, so the turns of anarchy are only lost hammers and not lost research or $, so a civic change wouldn't hurt now nearly as much as it would later in the game.

By the way, nice trade for Sailing. It might look unbalanced to trade HBR for Sailing, but having the rivers and coast carry the trade network to other civs makes your trade netork much more resiliant even if you had those cities in your trade network before getting Sailing. It's an exceptionally important tech in many maps and I think people overlook it if they're not headed for a tech that has Sailing as a pre-req.

 

[Sisiutil]

why did you put your GG on a chariot I told you it was better on impies, giving the +1 move special promotions to keep the advantage of mobility

Habit.

Sis-

You mentioned "triangle partner" in your state of the world. Can you elaborate on what this is and how you can use it to your advantage?

Triangle diplomacy: there's a brief write-up on it in my Beginners' Strategy Guide.

2 GP/turn for a resource does not look like a very good exchange rate. You should be looking to improve that exchange rate when the opportunity presents itself.

I always do. 2 GPT is the best I can do at the moment.

Caste system OTOH will let rus run 2-4 merchants instead of scientists to improve the economy RIGHT NOW while the courthouses are built. Plus the possibility to temporarily hire artists in your new acqusitions that will be under stiff pressure.

Yes, I was thinking CS was attractive for that very reason. The 2 scientists in every city can change to merchants until courthouses and Currency allow the economy to recover.

Is this a time to burn the GS for a golden age? We need a bump in the economy, we have lots of courthouses to build, and we have at least one civic change to make (if we have/can get the requisite techs for OR and HR). I was one of the masses crying about all the civics changes a couple ALCs ago; I do my best to minimize anarchy.

A very intriguing suggestion, especially since, as Scarredroman points out, I'll have another GS pretty soon (faster thanks to a GA, too). A GA would keep the economy afloat for several turns, accelerate the courthouse builds, and allow me to change civics.

Even though I know you won't listen in this online ALC, I think you should continue the war with HC until the bitter end.

Whaddya mean I won't listen?!? That's the whole point of these things! Sometimes I may even listen a little too well.

Your suggestion has merit. As dire as -11 GPT at 0% looks, I don't think it's as bad as it seems. Courthouses will help, Currency is not far off, and as you say, I can maintain the economy through city captures and pillaging. As I mentioned above, starting a GA, switching to Caste System, and running merchant specialists is also attractive.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Whaddya mean I won't listen?!? That's the whole point of these things! Sometimes I may even listen a little too well.

I didn't mean it quite like that.

I just mean that peace is really the safest solution with the most "outs". Continuing the war is pretty brazen and has more bad, game-ending possibilities, so peace seems the more prudent choice for an online game.

 

[Kev]

Everyone seems to have some pretty good advice - found myself agreeing back and forth.

Getting right down to it, I think there are enough options for sustaining the economy that a continued war is worthwhile.

Options include (and are not mutually exclusive in most cases):
- Golden age
- Caste system/Merchants
- Courthouse whipping
- Plunder
- Begging from those with Currency

In theory, all of the above could be done (though we could not whip while in Caste, still we could build courthouses anyway) and allow the forces to move onward. Netting Calendar and Currency somehow along the way can only help as well.

Benefits of continued aggression vs. HC include the aforementioned plunder, possible new resources, possible Holy City with shrine, hitting HC before he can recreate a stack, and making him generally weaker for when we decide to finish the job. Further, perhaps HC will research an additional tech that we can take for peace (hope he doesn't make it construction, but I have a feeling he will).

Quick question on the no-brokering deal: If HC gets a tech from someone else, would he be able to offer it for peace?

One final thought - would it be better to go the next ten turns without a golden age and then use the NEXT GP for that purpose? We could then bulb Philosophy now and use it for trading immediately... Plus, we may wish to stay in slavery for the short term to get some courthouses whipped quickly...

 

[Gr8scott]

Bulbing philosophy I think is much stronger than a GA:

Why?
-It will take us a while to get our economic house in order (which will then allow faster research rates). This will likely cause us to fall behind a bit in research. Philo is great trade bait to get us back in the tech game. My guess is the net beakers you will get from a philo bulb (philo + trade beakers) will be sizeable especially with no tech brokering turned on.

-Given the size of your empire, the size of the hammer/commerce benefit from GA is fairly small. The major benefit is getting hammer/commerce now, which admittedly could make a big difference. A golden age has immediate hammer/commerce benefits, but a bulb of philo could provide comparable commerce benefits via a trade for currency. If accelerating hammers is so critical, I would guess extra pop rushing does a better job at hammer acceleration than a GA.

-Bulbing philo keeps us in the Lib race which could be decisive later on (although perhaps aggressive AI means we can win the lib race more easily??).

my advice:

-continue the war with HC and pillage / conquest for cash. I like the idea of at least grabbing the shrine city

-pop rush courthouses in high maintenance cities (capital still on unit duty I guess)

-bulb bulb bulb

-try and trade for currency (and maybe calader?) - Not sure whether CoL or philo is preferred to give up in trade, but currency is critical to get.

-if the economy goes critical, sue for peace and caste/merchants to get you through.

Goodluck!

GS

 

[whakamole]

You won't get anything immediately for Philosophy. Only Washington has a tech prerequisite (CoL), and he has nothing to trade in return (and in all likelihood, he's already investing beakers in Philo as his next tech). However, if Hammy's following up with CoL pretty soon, he could be a target to trade for a combo from his Calendar/Currency/Monotheism stash. Otherwise, nobody has CoL or Aesthetics (let alone drama) as prerequisites for Philo. Heck, Peter and De Gaulle don't even have Meditation!

Also, if you obtain and then immediately trade Philosophy, it'll be that much harder to maintain an edge on the Liberalism race with your stunted tech growth (although the AI tends to ignore Education).

You could bulb Philo and then in 10 turns bulb your next tech... but you may end up whipping away your scientist specialists to get your infrastructure up (and I think you should), which will mean more than 10 turns for your next GP.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I'd say

GA
keep up the war on HC
Whip units (and a few courthouses)
towards the end of the GA, (after you have the next GP) Change to Caste/HR
and then use Merchants to keep the Economy afloat after swallowing the Incas

 

[pieman11]

Sorry if this may sound stupid, but i looked at your first two sessions, and I realised that hammy already founded islam. Im kinda dumbfounded because I thought you need divine right which is pretty far down the tech path.Did he really waste all of his time just to get this? or am i missing an update?

 

[whakamole]

Sorry if this may sound stupid, but i looked at your first two sessions, and I realised that hammy already founded islam. Im kinda dumbfounded because I thought you need divine right which is pretty far down the tech path.Did he really waste all of his time just to get this? or am i missing an update?

Hey, Pieman - "Choose religions" game option is activated, so each religion founder can choose which religion to pursue when they unlock one with an appropriate tech. This is why Sis was able to found Hinduism with the discovery of Code of Laws. This game strategy adds a degree of difficulty by keeping you from knowing which religious tech is obtained by another civ when the announcement of a religion founding is given.

 

[Jet]

"courthouses or Catapults?"

Catapults. Earn cash by razing Cuzco and Corihuayrachina. Rebuild 1NE of Cuzco before Wang gets there.

The city with the Stable should be building mounted units. (Gah! You actually built four Stables. Well...)

If you build any Courthouses, which you shouldn't, build them away from the war front, not at it.

The cities that are running scientists should fire them until they grow to their happy caps.

A lightbulbed tech would be great in this game. But right now there aren't many trade techs up, and it would be better to let someone else found the religion. So I think I'd settle the scientist.

 

[patagonia]

You won't get anything immediately for Philosophy. Only Washington has a tech prerequisite (CoL), and he has nothing to trade in return (and in all likelihood, he's already investing beakers in Philo as his next tech). However, if Hammy's following up with CoL pretty soon, he could be a target to trade for a combo from his Calendar/Currency/Monotheism stash. Otherwise, nobody has CoL or Aesthetics (let alone drama) as prerequisites for Philo. Heck, Peter and De Gaulle don't even have Meditation!

That's not the only problem with bulbing philosophy.

Looking longer term, you're going to want the Muslim bloc to fragment, which means leaving the unclaimed religions to the AI. An AI is much more likely to switch out of the dominant religion to one it has the holy city for than one it doesn't.

How frequently can you change civics during a GA? If it's possible to revolt to caste, run merchants and build courthouses, then revolt to slavery for a round of whipping, then back to caste before the end of the GA, that would be ideal. I only play normal speed, so not sure if this would be possible on Epic or not though.