ALC Game 21: Zulus/Shaka

[Kev]

I'm liking the chariot rush idea as well - worked well against Ragnar in a recent game (non-protective and aggressive too). Worrisome if he founds a religion and starts boosting his culture in cities - have there been any religion-founding announcements?

Taking the copper might not be the most pressing need - seems by the time you get enough chariots on board and take the city you may even have iron at that time. Still, it's important enough to keep the Inca in check lest he becomes an early thorn. Perhaps he'll spend some time on an early wonder (nice if he finishes it too) and slack a bit on the defense.

I'd probably look to found the horse city quickly and get one more city on board while getting Myst and the Wheel. Then the UB and chariots and try my hand at that. If nothing else, we have good barb protection, a higher power rating so we won't be anyone's early target, decent settler escorts, or workable pillagers.

Guess the scouts did not find anything worthwhile. Still time, but it would have been nice to have some cash around or getting a free tech or something.

 

[mystyfly]

Iirc HC often founds Buddhism. In this case, you'll likely face 20% more cultural defenses but you'll have a holy city. Impis will definitely be too late for attacking a civ. Maybe they will support swords attacking another civ? Well the only other civ would be Korea, even though they're protective. Otherwise the Impis would simply be fogbusters...
And that HC builds an early wonder is likely as well I think. You can watch this. Just look out for his settlers and workers. You can estimate how much he spent on settler/worker/army and you'll easily see if he builds a wonder. If he builds a wonder, attacking earlier is the key. Nearly no defenses, only cultural ones.
And your second city, Horseville, you have many possibilities. There is so much food which is very important in early cities that you can place it so other cities also can make use of the food and you have access to those horses without a border pop.

 

[Scarredroman]

Don't like the map. You stand too good a chance of being overrun by barbarians, if you don't have the Great Wall.

Can't see the point playing a game where you can't showcase the UU.

Regenerate.

 

[ese-aSH]

remember inca UB gives them +2 culture, so the time to get an army you will probably face +40% cultural def in most cities.

but groups of charriot + impies will allow you for massive early pillage, and very strong 'outside city' fighters (impies kill everything but axes, chariots kill axes).

in the end the solution might be to go at war, pillage all the land from your neighbours (not only HC) and expand on your own. You should be able to capture few workers, and to get enough gold from pillaging to pay for your troops.

 

[ese-aSH]

Don't like the map. You stand too good a chance of being overrun by barbarians, if you don't have the Great Wall.

Can't see the point playing a game where you can't showcase the UU.

Regenerate.

when surrunded by huge empty areas, having a early UU that moves 2 tiles is something great.

 

[Daedal]

Looks like you're stuck between a rock and a hard place... there's no Impi rush and IMO a chariot rush is too costly an option to pursue. You'd win the battle, but lose the war because your momentum would be gone.

Peaceful REX is not nearly as amusing as an early war, but it may be a necessity here. I'd suggest land grabbing north and east because your mid-game opponents will be in that direction. Let HC expand toward you while you research IW and other fun military techs. Kill him later on your terms rather than rushing him now.

Toward that end, I'd suggest warrior/worker/settler/GW. GW will be a nice boon to REXing. Settle near the stone NE of your capitol for the production boost and research masonry asap.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Okay, I've now taken a look at the save, and this start is a mess of conflicting priorities imo.

There's a lot to say (*collective sigh* - "oh no, here he goes again..."), but for the time being I'll limit myself to the question of barb defence - a priority we overlook at our peril.

If you plant a city 1N1NW of the horses, then you'll have to research Mysticism next, chop a Monument, wait for the borders to pop, build a Pasture and only then start building Chariots. Fifty turns have passed already, and it's gonna be very risky to rely on Warriors to escort your settlers for much longer. Bear in mind, also, that without the hut cash you're at the mercy of the RNG - a "routes washed out" event could be disastrous here.

Patagonia's suggestion (1NW of the horses) would get the Chariots online much quicker, but other than that it's a junk city - nothing but a drag on your economy. Also, to connect the horses to the capital from this spot you'll need roads through neutral territory, which could fall prey to a wandering barb.

Another option is to gamble on there being Iron in the capital's radius and go straight for IW, but this is both too risky and too limiting, development-wise, to be a sensible choice imo.

That leaves the safest, most reliable option - Archers. Cheap, resource-free (so no danger of disruption from barbs or events), and only nine turns of research away. With these guys online you can settle the better horse city without having to run any risks, and send your next settler or two northeastwards with a much higher degree of confidence that they'll arrive in one piece. The drawback? Well, aside from being boring, it's nine turns of research for a dead-end tech at a time when every single turn counts.

If this was my game, played without an audience, I'd probably take my chances with the barbs, go for the first option, and roll another start if it went wrong.

But I'd say that such a mentality is inappropriate for an ALC - not least because restarting would mean another long discussion on scout moves and first-city placement. As much as the gambler in me says that Archery is for wusses, I think it's probably the right option in this case.

Iirc HC often founds Buddhism.

He's already founded Confucianism. Hammy's got Islam too. (Don't panic - Choose Religions is enabled )

Guess the scouts did not find anything worthwhile. Still time, but it would have been nice to have some cash around or getting a free tech or something.

No Goody Huts is also enabled.

 

[mystyfly]

He's already founded Confucianism. Hammy's got Islam too. (Don't panic - Choose Religions is enabled )

Seems I forgot/overlooked that... I should've written that HC is often first to Meditation, then

 

[madscientist]

I think you need to block off HC to the west which means the horse city and north coast shore city.

You probably will not listen but I say tech archery next. Defend against those barbs and agreesive AIs may attack at anytime. Agressive Hammarabi to the east with his impi killing bowmen is a dangerous neighbor. Also do not assume Wang will sit to your north idle, he will attack with teh agressive AI feature. So I say be save and get archery, the horse will take awhile to hook up. After archery get mysticism and wheel. By the time you settle the second city and have it grow to pop 2 you would have teched myst to whip the monument.

The Zulu UB is not all that helpful in the capital, I say wait and focus on warriors/archers until the pop grows enough then worker and settler to finish blocking off HC.

Fourth city should definitely claim the Jumbos to the east unless you need it to claim any iron.

So techpath

archery/mysticism/wheel/IW.

 

[davy_hall]

I think an early rush is out, but that does not mean that early war is out or that you cannot showcase the UU.

I think HC is your first target as you said - but you don't have to rush his capital to beat him. The goal is to take his land, right? My suggestion: ReX north and east along the river to block Wang and Hammurabi while you find iron and hook that up for the UU. Grab that gold and Ivory ASAP to raise the happy cap, furs are in the bag so that should give you +3. Once you've done that, turn your attention to HC.

Settle the horse city also, then send your impis and chariots to pillage his resources and chase his settlers. Stunt his growth and then plop down your own cities around him at your leisure. The mobility of your impis will allow you to run down his single units and avoid his stacks. His spears/Axes will make it too hard for you to attack, but when you're on defense your impis and chariots will also present the same problem to him. That allows you to pillage and harrass him with little danger. Stay friendly with Wang and Hammurabi (if you REX quickly toward them, you get the best land from them peacefully), and if possible perhaps even bribe one of them (probably Hammurabi) to help you fight HC.

Wait for catapults or maybe even Trebs before assaulting HC's cities. You should be able to get a tech edge on him if you can keep Wang and Ham on your side and not trading with him, plus plundering all his luxury and strategic resources.

I think it would still be an excellent use of the UU, and perhaps even showcase their strength better than simply a rush city assault. As a pillager, the impi really has no match until knights.

 

[ese-aSH]

I think an early rush is out, but that does not mean that early war is out or that you cannot showcase the UU.

I think HC is your first target as you said - but you don't have to rush his capital to beat him. The goal is to take his land, right? My suggestion: ReX north and east along the river to block Wang and Hammurabi while you find iron and hook that up for the UU. Grab that gold and Ivory ASAP to raise the happy cap, furs are in the bag so that should give you +3. Once you've done that, turn your attention to HC.

Settle the horse city also, then send your impis and chariots to pillage his resources and chase his settlers. Stunt his growth and then plop down your own cities around him at your leisure. The mobility of your impis will allow you to run down his single units and avoid his stacks. His spears/Axes will make it too hard for you to attack, but when you're on defense your impis and chariots will also present the same problem to him. That allows you to pillage and harrass him with little danger. Stay friendly with Wang and Hammurabi (if you REX quickly toward them, you get the best land from them peacefully), and if possible perhaps even bribe one of them (probably Hammurabi) to help you fight HC.

Wait for catapults or maybe even Trebs before assaulting HC's cities. You should be able to get a tech edge on him if you can keep Wang and Ham on your side and not trading with him, plus plundering all his luxury and strategic resources.

I think it would still be an excellent use of the UU, and perhaps even showcase their strength better than simply a rush city assault. As a pillager, the impi really has no match until knights.

I totally agree.
Some pointed that a rush is too risky, and I changed my mind.
Yet pillaging HC, and even other civ ! (for instance those that will convert to HC religion) is a good way to get money, block AI tech and expansion (so you wont need to expand west, HC wont be able to settle there anyway, this will be yours later)

 

[Indiansmoke]

I would tech pottery next (granaries and cottage the flood plains) with iron working to follow...make 2 settlers grab the horse (barb protection) (second settler should be out same time you finish IW) and make granaries and barracks, grab the iron with the third settler and start thinking about war...

 

[Mesousa]

Has someone tested how long it'd take to research Iron Working? There's not a lot of commerce ...

 

[civ4legs]

I think that leveraging Shaka's expansionist abilities is the best bet here: REX up as much of the good land as you can. The ivory and gold in particular would be nice, although I am also a fan of blocking the AIs own expansion with well-placed cities.

In any case, it seems clear that any sort of a rush is out, so it looks like cats would be the first time you can effectively capture any cities...

REX!

 

[LlamaCat]

wow after seeing all the belly aching here about this starting position, I don't feel so bad after messing up this start. I actually never explored that area to the lower west and missed those other horses! it totally makes it a different game from mine at this point because I thought the only horses were the ones up north, and Wang Kong was already settling near it.

that site with the gold and elephants to the East .... it is a great spot but don't you need sailing to connect to the capital? that will take time to research, or just roading the two cities and getting everything hooked up will take a lot of worker time, so the maintenance might kill you for a while. plus there are no neighbors over that way, except barbs maybe. I say go West young man to the horses and discover the use of chariots.

PS researching iron working at this point will take forever and a day...

 

[Calder]

May I ask why Goodie Huts are turned off. While I see ALC games as informative and can aspire a player to play at a higher level by learning from skilled players, wouldn't most players whilst trying to emulate the skill shown in these games prefer to have this enabled in there own games?
Its your only source of early income, which under these circumstances, would certainly have been useful in this game as you can't do the early Impi pillaging.
On a side note, whilst I enjoy reading and contributing in the prestart decisions, and don't mind reading 3 or more pages of this, I'd like to see a little less democratic decision making on the start, or in other words, use more of your own intuitive decision making on where to start. Clearly in this game the majority of people wanted to settle in place, but those people could have learned why in some circumstances the loss of a couple of settling moves, while seemingly risky, can surely pay off. (In this instance by not scouting settler 2NE onto grass hill, you've missed out on seeing that plains Hill near the stone which would have given you a massivley rich and productive capital city). But I only play Marathon speed games on large/huge maps, so I guess it's a little different on Epic/standard.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I'd go with peaceful REX too, showcase Shaka's UB instead of his UU

probably, Wheel/Archery for defense

Then Mysticism+Masonry for the Stone city (Great Wall+Stonehenge).. Pyramids are still too expensive for a REX.. but Stonhenge+GW enhance it.

[that might be an interesting Idea research Masonry for Defense and rush the GW.. make 1st Settler stone city.. but you would still need the Wheel to connect it up... so Never Mind]

 

[ParadigmShifter]

To be fair, Sis has moved the settler in previous games. I remember heated debate in the 2nd Peter game about it. It worked out rather well I seem to recall.

 

[madscientist]

Not sure if it has been emntioned before. To the east there are some desert river tiles, not floodplains, desert. In my experience those always end up being a resoruce, in this case likely iron. Something to keep in mind especially IF Hammarabi starts crowding in that direction.

Also the final screenshot of the maps seams to have an unusual amount of ice not shown in teh earlier screenshots.

 

[BARBEERIAN]

Tech Mysticism for Monuments next.

First Settler: I'd put the horse city on the river, has a few hills (at the cost of the corn) and adds the fur. See Fourth Settler as to why.
Border: I'd chop this monument to get horsies asap since there's no copper nearby and a sizeable chunk of land for Barbs to spawn in you'll need something sooner rather than later.

Second Settler: I'd settle 1-NE of the Gold. 2 Happiness resources you already have techs for plus 2 food and rivers.
Border: I'd slave this monument. The worker turn will probably be better spent getting the ivory online and roading while you wait for the pop.

Third Settler: Gotta run a Land block on Wang Kon as much as you can and try to force him to settler North and East instead of South. Nabs 2 food so it'll be a handy whipping post.
Border: I'd Pre-Chop the monument here.

Fourth Settler: I'd settle another more forward city 2W of the Wine to nab the Cows and Corn. It's main purpose would be to draw HC's attacks away from resource cities once war is declared (and be a safe place to heal up right on his capitals border). 2 food resources for the whip and 2 plains hills will make it a pretty ideal size-4'ish frontline troop factory.
Border: Pre-Chop.

Settle other dots at your leisure.