ALC Game 22: Arabs/Saladin

[Sisiutil]

I'd caution against your absolute resolve to discard founding an opening religion in the next game. I think absolutes like this are what restricts creativity in the game, and if you find yourself in the right situation to found a religion and use it to your advantage, I think you should be open to it.

I agree, but I think what would be a smarter play with Saladin is to not go after an early religion, but to leverage the Madrassa to generate a Great Prophet to pop a religion from something like Monotheism or Theology--if that's warranted. On this map, it wasn't; as I mentioned, Louis, though he has not advantages in this regard, likes founding religions. Had I known I was starting next to him, I would have not pursued Polytheism but left it to him. However, I played an off-line game a while back where I was playing as Julius on a continent with Shaka, Sury, Ragnar, and Sitting Bull; no one founded a religion until Shaka discovered one from Theology. If I'd been playing as Saladin, founding a spreading a religion would have been entirely warranted in that situation.

 

[Aquarius_DJ]

Someone said that you shouldn't be the one under attack... Well isn't that the whole point of being protective? Trying to play peacefully and defend with protective units when necessary? Forget about melee units... You don't even need them. Well maybe some spearmen or pikemen but that's it.

Maybe you should focus fully on a cultural victory. Build some wonders. Get some GP. Bulb some techs your allies don't research. Trade them. Use your extra spypoints to steal techs just for more techtrading.

You can even use your spiritual trait to keep your neighbours friendly by choosing the civics they fancy. Maybe it's possible to switch to their favorite civics for a short time just to get more out of tech trading?

Get a free artist from music if possible somehow. Maybe anyone can think of a nice gambit? Try to build the Sistine Chapel while other civs focus on the AP.

Just some ideas on how I would try to play with Saladin. I know I'm not mentioning constructive plans or something but that's something you guys are better at than me

 

[whakamole]

I agree, but I think what would be a smarter play with Saladin is to not go after an early religion, but to leverage the Madrassa to generate a Great Prophet to pop a religion from something like Monotheism or Theology--if that's warranted.

It's a very good strategy for Sal (and one I typically use when playing him)... but dang, there are times when I roll a gems/gold open and it's usually too tempting to me to think religion first (especially if in a cottage-friendly or lake area). In these opens, I look at the opening Mysticism tech and think why not found an early religion for an economic powerhouse capital (even if someone like Isabella is next door). In this case, I use madrassas to help pop that first prophet for a shrine and then a first scientist for an academy.

 

[Jet]

something like Monotheism or Theology--if that's warranted. On this map, it wasn't; as I mentioned, Louis, though he has not advantages in this regard, likes founding religions.

Well, the extra promotion from Theocracy is still very good.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Well, the extra promotion from Theocracy is still very good.

I'd almost prefer a Shwedagon gambit for Theocracy.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I'd almost prefer a Shwedagon gambit for Theocracy.

I've almost completely forgotten that isn't the only way to get Theocracy.

 

[ratrangerm]

I just went back to look at the first round of the game Sis played because I needed to refresh my memory about something... which brings me to something I think was a mistake on Sis' part.

He researched Agriculture to get to Animal Husbandry when it would have made more sense to research Hunting instead.

Now, while he didn't have Hunting resources in Mecca's BFC, Hunting is the prereq for Archery and opens the path to AH just as Ag does. Plus Hunting is cheaper to research than Ag.

Now, if Sis had a grain resource in Mecca's BFC, he would obviously need Ag. But he didn't in this particular game, so Ag could have gone on the backburner, IMO.

And no, it wasn't absolutely necessary to farm the floodplains, IMO. Floodplains work fine for early growth, and once the Cows had been pastured, he would have been able to grow the city at a steady pace and get a good amount of hammers as well.

Also, I don't think founding a religion was a bad thing with Saladin, regardless of who else was there. I wouldn't discard that just because it didn't work out here... I think there was more to what happened with this game than just the fact Louie founded a religion.

While going with BW paid off at first, the problem was I didn't see Sis utilize it that well. I think he should have built his second city, then immediately build his force to go in and cause Louie grief ASAP. If he was never going to rush Louie that early, sticking with the Archery path would have been the better route, IMO.

Like someone said earlier, sometimes a good defense is better than rushing somebody early. Build up the defenses and utilize Archers properly and Sis could have gotten Louie, should he declare war, to bleed himself dry throwing units his way, to the point that Sis probably could have taken advantage at some point later in the game.

I'll admit I'm not the best CIV player around, but those are things that come to mind from my own observations as well as points others have brought up that I think were good points.

 

[madscientist]

I gotta agree with Ratrangerm. Founding the early religion was not a mistake for Saladin. It's never a mistake with that leader unless you have no commerce tiles to work early. I also agree agriculture over hunting as tech #2 was a mistke.

This is not a criticism, but I think Sis may be a little over agressive, especially with the protective leaders (overexpanded in the Gilgamech game also) .

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and I have made my share of mistakes. Look foreward to Saladin #2, and I still think you should go after polytheism first thing if possible.

 

[Nares]

He researched Agriculture to get to Animal Husbandry when it would have made more sense to research Hunting instead.

I think Agriculture is the correct choice.

Hunting and Archery can be delayed for a period of time. You may still want to grab Hunting before researching Animal Husbandry, however.

 

[slaze]

Agriculture was needed to turn the capitol into the settler/worker pump that it was supposed to be.

 

[Polobo]

Actually, animal husbandry and mining were all that was necessary to bump up production (for settlers or otherwise). An unimproved floodplain is equivalent to a farmed grassland so we really aren't that worse off competitively and we don't have to worry about cottaging over farms in preparation for Bureaucracy.

Therefore, hunting (cheaper and leads to archery for inexpensive and promoted defenders) would have been better off since we already had fishing to open up pottery. The discount for knowing agriculture wouldn't be worthwhile especially since we decided to research Polytheism early.

 

[Bandobras Took]

I think Agriculture is the correct choice.

Learning moment:

Why? What is the advantage of early Agriculture in this situation?

 

[Nares]

Why? What is the advantage of early Agriculture in this situation?

Farms.

With the free Fishing, which I assume everyone got, it also reduces the cost of Pottery.

But the real blessing is in increased growth rate.

Here's a better question. Why Hunting?

 

[Bandobras Took]

Does the +1 food make such a huge difference (there aren't any farmable resources in the capital)? As far as early tech choices go, Hunting unlocks Animal Husbandry and Archery, both of which are fairly useful.

 

[Jet]

Never mind

 

[zombiestomp]

i want to chime in and say that, while maybe not this time, some games are untenable. the way that different resources and better land is randomly allocated means that sometimes you just can't win. of course, i lose a lot, so saying this makes me feel better.

this might be almost cheating, but, what about clicking on aggessive ai and raging barbarians? this would make things harder on the surface but with the protective trait it would give protective many more chances to leverage itself. barbarians would slow down the ai for a while, until the continent is filled out and fogbusted, while inter-ai warfare would further slow their progress. on the flip-side, any of this aggression would be more easily mitigated by your advanced archers.

also, due to spiritual civics juggling, you could switch around to please those civs that you need to appease. so you get a two-fer, athough it is almost like cheating. on the other hand, if the point of the ALC is two show where a certain civ excels, then i don't think it is too much of a stretch.

even without this tweak, i have two criticisms. first, forget the early religion. it slows you down with research and, even worse, it promotes inter-ai cooperation. you don't even need temples with madrassa's two prophets. this, in turn, really lends itself to a specialist/food economy.

second, all that talk about a crossbow slingshot deserves a look. plus, it's sick if you can actually pull it of. even if this isn't possible, fuedalism is indespensible. protective longbows are tough as hell, cheap, and resourceless.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Yeah, at emperor just forget about the first 3 religions. It's impossible to keep up with the AI in spreading those missionaries, so your religion will never catch on. Plus you have too many other priorities for those early hammers.

So a later religion is just as good, and still pretty easy to get. And later on you'll actually be able to spread it for the shrine income.

 

[zombiestomp]

research hunting, archery, animal husbandry, meditaion, priesthood, writing, monarchy, fuedalism, mining, bronzeworking, metalcasting, machinery, guilds. if you can pull this off, it might be the fastest run to camel archers, while also grabbing longbows. or, you could switch mining and bronzworking to the beginning. you could take a detour for agriculture for growth, masonry for pyramids plus engineer and metalcasting lightbulb, or ironworking for crossbows.

food needs to be the priority. forget all other resources. use the whip for hammers.

i don't know if this could ever work, or even if i have the techtree right. but it seems that one of the advantages of the arabs is that they don't need either or metal or horses for an early midgame war, though iron for crossbows could be helpful. once you get monarchy, you get two birds with one stone: no happy caps and impenetrable cities.

 

[Calder]

Well it was a bit late discovering Louis had Crossbows after you DOW on him. I believe this is what cost you this game, not anything else religion or tech strategywise. As they say know you're enemy before deciding to go to war.
If you wanted to slow Louis down; if you had a Woodsman II Warrior, and lucky enough to have early access to Copper, I would have sent it home and upgraded it to Axe ASAP and gone on a pillage/worker rampage (would have payed the cost of upgrading it). Early enough in the game Woodsman II Axe is unstoppable on the right terrain and is all you need to slow down a neighbour or two. It takes the A1 a long time to recover from that.

 

[zombiestomp]

NO WAY. excuse me.

but you don't know. assumptions make an ass of you and umption? what. damn you sailor jerry!

woodsman2 is a great promo, but only for like the first 20 turns. after that, all of the huts are popped anyway. even on the right terrain, a w2axe is dead if two or three units go after it.

the problem with protective is that it's so hard to use. i've seen lots of suggestions, but probably the best is an early war of attrition (improvement stomp), then waiting for the settler/archer stack for re-declarations. lots of micromannagement, a few extra settlers. i'm probably not clear, here. find the closest ai, hunting helps with this, tech archery and go to war immediately. adopt an always war strategy. essentially, with only one winner, this is the only strategy to pursue.

the challenge then become diplomacy. one or two civs will never like you, due to repeated DoW. eventually they will be eliminated, hopefully before they meet other civs for no diplo penalty.

hindsight is great, isn't it? louis and sulie were never going to be you friends anyway, so an ultra early (your head would look good on a POLE!) war strategy might work. give the other continent all of the religious strife they want by not teching whatever it was. you'd end up behind in tech of the other continent (on emperor), but as long as they were crushed before optics you'd have no negatives plus land enough to catch up.

this will be a hard game to win no matter what. hope for animal food bonuses.