ALC Game 22: Arabs/Saladin

VoiceOfUnreason said:
Notice that Agriculture was researched on turn 30, but as of turn 55 there are still no farms.
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I suggest it from the presumption that you'll be looking to build a worker and farm as soon as possible.

I ran some tests using fairly similar build/tech patterns. I found Agriculture -> Animal Husbandry -> Pottery as possibly the best tech path. Delaying Hunting seemed to produce the best results. Prioritizing Hunting resulted in the most worker turns spent on road building (rather than actual improvement building).

Outside of substituting a scout for a warrior, I don't see how you even intend to leverage Hunting before starting on your first settler. While the settler builds, you have time to research Archery in any of the configurations I tested.

For what it's worth, given the free Fishing, Agriculture -> Hunting -> Animal Husbandry -> Pottery wasn't even that far behind the two shorter tech paths. It started its first cottage 5-7 turns behind the other two paths, but reached size 4 before starting on a settler.
 
Sisiutil said:
But hey, if I'm lucky enough to have stone nearby in the next attempt at a Saladin game...
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Sad to hear that generating a new map is the plan. There has been a lot of discussion of what went wrong in this attempt, and rolling a new start feels like admitting defeat. Sure it was tough, and you are a better player than me for sure, but this is a challenge, it's not supposed to go according to plan all the time. There are many things that could have been done differently - to varying degrees of success - and to see a successful game in these testing conditions would be the real evidence that moving up a difficulty level for Lincoln is the next step.

It's hypocritical of me because I don't like to replay maps once I know I'm beaten, but this was a reasonably early defeat (mostly it seems because of the French teching to machinery!), and it's not too much like you know where all the resources are and are 'cheating' by playing again. Anyway, I'm throwing my vote behind a replay, still going for polytheism but then hunting->archery for a quite early archer spam strategy of distracting Louis long enough for you to make headway towards Feudalism or Machinery or something. You don't even have to follow up a pillage/annoy war with a war of conquest - with PRO you can just sit back knowing your own cities are nearly unconquerable.

$0.02
 
I think more than 90% of the readers, including me, consider this is a very challenging map, even if it were played the second time around.

There's a lot to learn in the replay of this map, if it happens. We would be able to compare the differences in the results of each detail of strategy, and how each decision is proved as having either positive or negative results.

Of course, having a fresh start can also be educational, but why not have both?
 
I'm reiterating my request for a replay of the map. Replaying maps that defeat us help us (and you, too!) to learn about the deeper levels of the game because it puts us out of our comfort zone - it forces us to discover new ways to win because the old ones aren't working.
 
The early religion play was a "role-playing" choice by Sis, which is fine: he wanted some extra challenge for an emporer game.

The other suggestion, which has been re-mentioned is to leverage the Madrassa's priest slots to pop prophets and bulb to the Christianity founding slot and then build the AP. I hope that Sis goes this route on the redux, as I think it does a better job of leveraging Saladin's traits/uniques than founding an initial religion does.

Pre-Monarch, I was a bit of a religion whore: founding 2 or 3 at least each game. Since moving up (and thanks to aelf and Sis' showcase games), I have changed my tack to going out of my way to NOT found a religion at times, in order to focus my techs, but also to keep the AIs mad at each other. In particular I have never built the AP at anything above Prince, and I would appreciate seeing it done!

<edit>
Oh, and I would also like to add my vote to replay the current map!
</edit>
 
Munch said:
Sad to hear that generating a new map is the plan. There has been a lot of discussion of what went wrong in this attempt, and rolling a new start feels like admitting defeat. Sure it was tough, and you are a better player than me for sure, but this is a challenge, it's not supposed to go according to plan all the time.
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That's why I would have loved to see Sis actually continue the current game. I think it would be incredible to see him snatch victory from the jaws of defeat at this point. But, he's already decided and he's certainly not going to be swayed by someone like me who's still playing at cheiftain :blush:

That said I'll again add my cries to the recent outcry to replay the recent map. Honestly, I don't know if Sis has a photographic memory, but if he resists the temptations to consult his posts on this game, I don't see him remembering where all the resources are, etc. etc. especially since he's been busy playing off-line games to get back in synch with Protective. By the time he gets around to it, this board could almost be new again.

And now a N00b question (or three). How much influence could we have on what Louis will do? Does the RNG come up with one string of numbers for each player or for the whole game. And could Louis' & Sulie's tech trading party have gone completely if Sis made one different move at the beginning (thus causing the RNG to give Louis/Sulie a different result, possibly disrupting their trading). A CIV version of the "butterfly effect" if you will. :crazyeye:
 
Froggie818 said:
Honestly, I don't know if Sis has a photographic memory, but if he resists the temptations to consult his posts on this game, I don't see him remembering where all the resources are
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I honestly don't think the placement of resources played a major role in this map.

Froggie818 said:
How much influence could we have on what Louis will do?
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The only influence I found I had was to chop rush the Oracle possibly mere turns before Louis completed it.

Louis and Suleiman both picked up religions in my game. I actually had a very interesting position. Random gem pop event, random diplomatic faux pas event between Louis and Suleiman, and they founded and adopted different religions, which both spread to me. Oracle for early HR, which is both Louis and Suleiman's favorite civic.

All by the same 380BC save.
 
I prefer not to replay a map at the best of times. I find it skews things; it's as unbalanced as starting with 3 gold mines in the fat cross. I really think it will take the "Challenge" out of "All Leaders Challenge".

I seem to be drawing a lot of tough maps lately--it's happened in a couple of off-line games now too: lack of fresh water, lack of :) resources. Perhaps the new computer has it in for me, or it's taking my desire to challenge myself seriously.

At any rate, as I said above, I'll start a new thread with a new start on the weekend.
 
r_rolo1 said:
Mr Sisiutil, in this game you choosed the worst start out of 6. I think you can't blame the RNG on that ;)
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Ouch! Too true. If the next start contains a gold mine, I'm keepin' that sucker.

Speaking of which, I'm tempted to go back to that uber-start you posted... you know, the one with gold and three clams on a riverside plains hill? :drool: Hmmm...
 
Hey Sisiutil, when you post the game can you please post the starting screenshot after you already settled? Just to avoid 7 pages of discussion on where to move the warrior.
 
BalbanesBeoulve said:
Hey Sisiutil, when you post the game can you please post the starting screenshot after you already settled? Just to avoid 7 pages of discussion on where to move the warrior.
Click to expand...

C'mon, man, some people around here live for that discussion... :lol:
 
Showing that sometimes you get hunting just to save beakers

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5918636&postcount=18


So, AH it was. I could choose Agriculture or Hunting on the way.

Hunting would give me scouts who are luckeir with huts and quite effective for cold climate zone with wolves being weak and everything else being slow. Also, Hunting is one the cheapest first tier techs.

Agriculture would enable wheat; however, between the 2 seafoods, the sheep, the hill (mining it not so away) the wheat won't see much use in the early game for a considerably more expensive tech and ~5 worker turns of improvement.

As I proceeded with Hunting and AH,
 
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