Gliese 581
Your average civ junkie
Work hard, no pressure. 
ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
Pieman
Prince
Hope you pull through mate.
reverend oats
King
See pic
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
All right! Real-life mission accomplished. I'm gonna do my best to play and post the round tonight.
(BTW, if I get killed again, I'm just gonna move on to Lincoln...)
(BTW, if I get killed again, I'm just gonna move on to Lincoln...)
. I know you're up near BC, but that's no excuse.
Bandobras Took
Emperor
If you get killed again, don't move up a difficulty level until you can win with Saladin at this difficulty level.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Round 5: 750 BC to 365 BC (19 turns)
I'm b-a-a-a-ck!
I played a short, cautious round to get myself and the rest of you back into the swing of things. No hits, no runs, no errors... I hope!
I started off by making a couple of resource trades with Sury and Zara, hoping to eventually earn a meagre but much-needed "We appreciate the years you have supplied us with resources" diplomatic bonuses with them.
My first great person appeared, a Great Wall-generated Great Spy in Mecca.
I left him there for the round. As you can see, I was researching Alphabet. I wanted to complete it and have a look at the tech standings to get the best idea as to how to use him. We all started off talking about settling him for the XPs, but last round several of you started advocating an infiltration mission.
(On a slightly-related note... remember in vanilla, when Saladin was Philosophical? Sigh...)
One of the main things I wanted to do this round was get myself a little better protected. That meant leveraging Protective and its uber-Archers, so I switched civics...
Then I whipped a couple of Protective Archers.
By the end of the round, each of my cities had an CG II/Drill I Archer protecting it. I also focused on Granaries and Barracks, the better to enable whipping units in the future.
Wouldn't you know it, before I could switch out of Slavery after 5 turns, I got hit by a slave revolt!
All I have to say is...
Another barb city appeared:
Fortunately it didn't appear on top of the iron, which I think I need to go and grab during the next round. I'm thinking of leaving the Scout fog-busting there to be safe. Both barb cities have Workers, so I've got my two Chariots heading south, hoping to steal them--though my Chariots could be at risk from barb Archer-based counter-attacks.
I was able to finish my next tech with a reasonable amount of speed; it arrived on the last turn of the round.
So how does the tech board look? Not terrifically overwhelming:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but suddenly an infiltration mission looks less attractive. Then again, the precedent techs are hiding their successors. I would imagine that all of my neighbours have Sailing, and Sury switched to Hereditary Rule this round, so he obviously has Priesthood and Monarchy in addition to Polytheism. With the Pyramids in my possession and no wine around, though, Monarchy holds less appeal than it usually does. I'm leaning back towards settling the Great Spy to spread the EPs around evenly, but I await your thoughts on the matter.
That's the first main decision point for the round. The second is what to research next? I chose Aesthetics for its trading value and because it's on the path to Literature and the Great Library (as well as the Heroic Epic, which I can build thanks to my Woodsman III Warrior). But there may be better choices, no?
Here's a look at my current relations:
Current trade deals:
And the map:
So as I said, the main decision points seem to be what use to make of the Great Spy, and what research direction to take. In addition, what should the priorities be for the next round; am I right to think that seizing the southern iron is a worthwhile goal? And now that I have barracks and granaries in nearly all of my cities, that madrassas should follow?
Let me know what you think!
I'm b-a-a-a-ck!
I played a short, cautious round to get myself and the rest of you back into the swing of things. No hits, no runs, no errors... I hope!
I started off by making a couple of resource trades with Sury and Zara, hoping to eventually earn a meagre but much-needed "We appreciate the years you have supplied us with resources" diplomatic bonuses with them.
My first great person appeared, a Great Wall-generated Great Spy in Mecca.
I left him there for the round. As you can see, I was researching Alphabet. I wanted to complete it and have a look at the tech standings to get the best idea as to how to use him. We all started off talking about settling him for the XPs, but last round several of you started advocating an infiltration mission.
(On a slightly-related note... remember in vanilla, when Saladin was Philosophical? Sigh...)
One of the main things I wanted to do this round was get myself a little better protected. That meant leveraging Protective and its uber-Archers, so I switched civics...
Then I whipped a couple of Protective Archers.
By the end of the round, each of my cities had an CG II/Drill I Archer protecting it. I also focused on Granaries and Barracks, the better to enable whipping units in the future.
Wouldn't you know it, before I could switch out of Slavery after 5 turns, I got hit by a slave revolt!
All I have to say is...
Another barb city appeared:
Fortunately it didn't appear on top of the iron, which I think I need to go and grab during the next round. I'm thinking of leaving the Scout fog-busting there to be safe. Both barb cities have Workers, so I've got my two Chariots heading south, hoping to steal them--though my Chariots could be at risk from barb Archer-based counter-attacks.
I was able to finish my next tech with a reasonable amount of speed; it arrived on the last turn of the round.
So how does the tech board look? Not terrifically overwhelming:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but suddenly an infiltration mission looks less attractive. Then again, the precedent techs are hiding their successors. I would imagine that all of my neighbours have Sailing, and Sury switched to Hereditary Rule this round, so he obviously has Priesthood and Monarchy in addition to Polytheism. With the Pyramids in my possession and no wine around, though, Monarchy holds less appeal than it usually does. I'm leaning back towards settling the Great Spy to spread the EPs around evenly, but I await your thoughts on the matter.
That's the first main decision point for the round. The second is what to research next? I chose Aesthetics for its trading value and because it's on the path to Literature and the Great Library (as well as the Heroic Epic, which I can build thanks to my Woodsman III Warrior). But there may be better choices, no?
Here's a look at my current relations:
Current trade deals:
And the map:
So as I said, the main decision points seem to be what use to make of the Great Spy, and what research direction to take. In addition, what should the priorities be for the next round; am I right to think that seizing the southern iron is a worthwhile goal? And now that I have barracks and granaries in nearly all of my cities, that madrassas should follow?
Let me know what you think!
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
everyturn you wait is 12 less eps and 3 less beakers. Make the commitment one way or another the nest turn.
Nice conservative play so far. I still suggest settling the Spy.
Nice conservative play so far. I still suggest settling the Spy.
slobberinbear
Ursine Skald
Welcome back. The board's too big without you, to paraphrase an old Police song.
Well, you need iron, and that southern city location is still within Zara's grasp. Settling it would kill two birds with one stone. Yes, you'll take a maintenance/research hit, but once your madrassas are up I imagine you'll be running scientists anyway, right?
As far as the GSpy goes ... Zara has enough cities for an infiltration mission to be worthwhile, even if you don't steal techs. One infiltration mission would let you cause unrest in every one of his cities, allowing you to bypass his vaunted cultural defenses and attack him pre-Construction with swords or axes. I still believe his rexing, border-popping ways must be contained early.
So: I would infiltrate the spy, settle the iron, build madrassas, and then build your axe army and use spies to soften him up.
Well, you need iron, and that southern city location is still within Zara's grasp. Settling it would kill two birds with one stone. Yes, you'll take a maintenance/research hit, but once your madrassas are up I imagine you'll be running scientists anyway, right?
As far as the GSpy goes ... Zara has enough cities for an infiltration mission to be worthwhile, even if you don't steal techs. One infiltration mission would let you cause unrest in every one of his cities, allowing you to bypass his vaunted cultural defenses and attack him pre-Construction with swords or axes. I still believe his rexing, border-popping ways must be contained early.
So: I would infiltrate the spy, settle the iron, build madrassas, and then build your axe army and use spies to soften him up.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 12,418
Expand, Kill, Destroy
One of your 2 traits is a Military one, use it
Priorities should be Currency>CoL (for REXing) followed by Construction+HBR... for conquest of Ethiopia
Followed by a Run up Theology*, Paper, Divine Right*, Philosophy* to get the Temple/Priest Booster Wonders
* good for Priest/Scientist bulbing
Followed by a rush to Guilds then Engineering (for Camel Archers, Protective X bows, Long Bows and to replace Catapults with Trebuchets)
Which you can use to Eliminate Roosevelt/Sury... and then the other
Ideally you can found a Later Religion with CoL/Theology/Divine Right/Philosophy and spread it to all of your continent... allowing you to keep Roosevelt/Sury your friend while you smash the Other one.
For the Spy.. settle, and those EPs can then be given for knocking down walls, getting low level techs (Fishing/Sailing) and finally building up for later distribution. (not to mention 6 rps per turn)
I'd agree on the Madrassas Only in cities that can run Specialists (or will soon)
And ye Southern Iron is useful, you can complement Jumbo/Cats with some CR Axes to defend against meddling spearmen (and some spears to defend against meddling Jumbos).. plus you will need it later for Crossbows
................
Slbear's suggestion is the other possible route
Infiltrate, rush to the Iron, build Spies and Axes for your army... quicker elimination of Zara (Tech path is still the same)
One of your 2 traits is a Military one, use it
Priorities should be Currency>CoL (for REXing) followed by Construction+HBR... for conquest of Ethiopia
Followed by a Run up Theology*, Paper, Divine Right*, Philosophy* to get the Temple/Priest Booster Wonders
* good for Priest/Scientist bulbing
Followed by a rush to Guilds then Engineering (for Camel Archers, Protective X bows, Long Bows and to replace Catapults with Trebuchets)
Which you can use to Eliminate Roosevelt/Sury... and then the other
Ideally you can found a Later Religion with CoL/Theology/Divine Right/Philosophy and spread it to all of your continent... allowing you to keep Roosevelt/Sury your friend while you smash the Other one.
For the Spy.. settle, and those EPs can then be given for knocking down walls, getting low level techs (Fishing/Sailing) and finally building up for later distribution. (not to mention 6 rps per turn)
I'd agree on the Madrassas Only in cities that can run Specialists (or will soon)
And ye Southern Iron is useful, you can complement Jumbo/Cats with some CR Axes to defend against meddling spearmen (and some spears to defend against meddling Jumbos).. plus you will need it later for Crossbows
................
Slbear's suggestion is the other possible route
Infiltrate, rush to the Iron, build Spies and Axes for your army... quicker elimination of Zara (Tech path is still the same)
Bandobras Took
Emperor
I'm going to vote for settling the Great Spy. The +3 to research isn't bad (especially since you're in Rep), while you can't guarantee that the Infiltration of today will be useful tomorrow. As you yourself pointed out, there may not be that many techs to steal, and Sailing is of only moderate use at this point, anyway. Settling the Great Spy gives you an espionage edge against all the other Civs, which will probably be more generally useful.
I can't tell from the Map; have you blocked off your end of the continent? If not, I'd put that at even higher priority an Iron-grabbing city. Those are my admittedly oddball opinions.
I can't tell from the Map; have you blocked off your end of the continent? If not, I'd put that at even higher priority an Iron-grabbing city. Those are my admittedly oddball opinions.
JujuLautre
Deity
You can see all that now, because the "can research" column functions correctly.
You can see that Roosevelt can research calendar, so he has sailing. Same for Sury and Zara. The same way, Zara and Sury at least have priesthood (both can research CoL without currency), and sury definitely has monarchy since he can research feudalism. And finally, I can't see the whole list, but perhaps Zara has constructions: he has masonry and Maths and construction does not appear on the list.
ratrangerm
Prince
Given that Zara likely has Construction, that means you probably need to get Construction yourself.
I've found with BtS that AI civs will seldom trade Mathematics given they often go for Hanging Gardens now. So you may need to grab Math yourself and then head for Construction, so you can get some Cats to go with your Axemen.
I've found with BtS that AI civs will seldom trade Mathematics given they often go for Hanging Gardens now. So you may need to grab Math yourself and then head for Construction, so you can get some Cats to go with your Axemen.
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2006
- Messages
- 2,431
Generally I'd work on blocking and growth and put off offensive war until medieval. You might as well. You have land to grow better than Zara or Roosevelt, and you can hide behind walls if you have to, as long as you're prepared. But you have to hurry to block, especially Zara. Both blocking cities are good, anyway. Gold/Crab will pay for itself with the mine. Fish/Corn/3-hills is perfect for a Madrassa and 4 specialists.
You're hurting for growth and improved tiles. That's understandable, but under the circumstances I think the actions of your 4 workers need special scrutiny and care.
Gems mine: great.
Plains mine road: terrible, useless.
Copper x 2: I wouldn't do that. Do you really need to build Axemen or Spearmen right now? I don't think you have a use for them. I'd be building Walls and Archers instead. Meanwhile that city is badly short of food. I'd be building the other grass camp, and farms. [Edit: actually, I would finish the Copper mine, but only because I suggest that it build a Settler immediately at size 2, and so it wouldn't need to grow.]
In Mecca I'd go Settler, Worker, Worker, Madrassa. The Settler would be for the Zara blocker.
In Medina I'd go Worker, Granary, Walls, Madrassa, Archer*.
In Damascus Worker, Walls, then Madrassa or Barracks/Archer*.
In Baghdad Settler, Granary. It will still be size 2, but the only other city that's good for building a Settler is Mecca, which should get to the Madrassa and specialists promptly. And there are a few forests you can chop.
I do think you should do the spy bomb. I don't know when you'll be able to start building spies, but Calendar (+1-2 happy free) and Currency (+2 happy Market) are good targets. So I would plan to steal Math. That would free you up to research Fishing/Poly/Mono/Meditation now, and try to bulb Theology. You can start something like Metal Casting or HBR until you have the spare production to build the spies and steal the math techs. One thing about Theology is your atheist continent. You'll have to be lucky for nobody else to get a religion, but if you do get one, you might win a friend or two, and with the techs and your Stone you can try for Spiral, Sankore, maybe the AP.
So I suggest "no way" to Aesthetics or grabbing the Iron right now. I think other stuff is more important.
You're hurting for growth and improved tiles. That's understandable, but under the circumstances I think the actions of your 4 workers need special scrutiny and care.
Gems mine: great.
Plains mine road: terrible, useless.
Copper x 2: I wouldn't do that. Do you really need to build Axemen or Spearmen right now? I don't think you have a use for them. I'd be building Walls and Archers instead. Meanwhile that city is badly short of food. I'd be building the other grass camp, and farms. [Edit: actually, I would finish the Copper mine, but only because I suggest that it build a Settler immediately at size 2, and so it wouldn't need to grow.]
In Mecca I'd go Settler, Worker, Worker, Madrassa. The Settler would be for the Zara blocker.
In Medina I'd go Worker, Granary, Walls, Madrassa, Archer*.
In Damascus Worker, Walls, then Madrassa or Barracks/Archer*.
In Baghdad Settler, Granary. It will still be size 2, but the only other city that's good for building a Settler is Mecca, which should get to the Madrassa and specialists promptly. And there are a few forests you can chop.
I do think you should do the spy bomb. I don't know when you'll be able to start building spies, but Calendar (+1-2 happy free) and Currency (+2 happy Market) are good targets. So I would plan to steal Math. That would free you up to research Fishing/Poly/Mono/Meditation now, and try to bulb Theology. You can start something like Metal Casting or HBR until you have the spare production to build the spies and steal the math techs. One thing about Theology is your atheist continent. You'll have to be lucky for nobody else to get a religion, but if you do get one, you might win a friend or two, and with the techs and your Stone you can try for Spiral, Sankore, maybe the AP.
So I suggest "no way" to Aesthetics or grabbing the Iron right now. I think other stuff is more important.
Peachrocks
Too Fast For Blazing
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2007
- Messages
- 127
Its possible one of those guys has Calendar (assuming they have Sailing) as well or numerous other techs after Mathematics.
In any case settle the spy and scotland yard the next one and target your EPs to whoever has the techs you want and make a priortity to build courthouses, castles, jails, nationalism, all the spy juice you can get. You could even divide among two targets, one to do missions against, the other to steal from that you plan on keeping alive.
In any case settle the spy and scotland yard the next one and target your EPs to whoever has the techs you want and make a priortity to build courthouses, castles, jails, nationalism, all the spy juice you can get. You could even divide among two targets, one to do missions against, the other to steal from that you plan on keeping alive
.
JujuLautre
Deity
Impossible (at least for Calendar): Roosevelt and Zara can research calendar, so they obv don't have it, and Sury doesn't even have maths.
JackRules
incompertus vapulus
I expect Zara will take down that Barb town on the coast, and then follow up with the iron city shortly. You're going to have a very long front by the time you get around to taking him on. I would try to get to currency while settling that town and taking the barbs on. Then get ready for Zara (however, I couldn't even contemplate Emperor level...).
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
Here's what I'd do in this situation:
in every city from foreign trade and can build wealth somewhere if necessary to get to CoL that bit quicker.
- Settle GSpy in the capital. That's +12
and +6
immediately. - Change research to HBR, followed by fishing, maths (trade if possible) and currency.
- Quickly settle two more cities, one in the W on the plains tile to pick up fish/corn and complete the block that side; another to get fish/iron in the south and seal Zara off. The best spot for that is on the tundra forest, putting both resources in the second ring.
- Both barb cities are keepers and can be taken with HA faster than you can get iron hooked up and build swords, hence the priority on HBR (I'm no real fan of axes unless you're aggressive). Zara also has construction (note the colosseum in Gondar) and HA make a good counter to cats (plus later on you'll need HBR to unlock war elephants for yourself).
in every city from foreign trade and can build wealth somewhere if necessary to get to CoL that bit quicker.Kev
Hired Goon
Agree with those in the 'settle the spy' camp. I think it gives you a great deal more flexibility, and if you make some extra effort at the spy-generating builds (perhaps even moving the spy slider - something I never seem to do myself) it will pay off a great deal more. Soon, you'll be able to see what everyone is researching (perhaps quicker if you just choose the top two) and that is always helpful.
Further, I think that the prevailing wisdom is that once your military gets going that your biggest competitor will be on a different continent. Having a good bit of spy points coming in every turn would allow for a change in espionage targets that can quickly be very useful.
Also - seems you still have open borders with Zara. Don't forget to close those when blocking (despite the trade loss).
I think others have pointed out that a coastal crab/gold city would block a galley once the borders popped. Seems to be the priority city site to be sure.
Further, I think that the prevailing wisdom is that once your military gets going that your biggest competitor will be on a different continent. Having a good bit of spy points coming in every turn would allow for a change in espionage targets that can quickly be very useful.
Also - seems you still have open borders with Zara. Don't forget to close those when blocking (despite the trade loss).
I think others have pointed out that a coastal crab/gold city would block a galley once the borders popped. Seems to be the priority city site to be sure.
I'll probably have to agree that settling this spy is the best idea.
I'm assuming you have no intention of pursuing any real espionage.
Really, it's the beakers you're getting out of this that make it worthwhile, though you may be able to view others' research and tech/trade appropriately.
Or Infiltrate, if you're comfortable with that. Hands down it's the best use of early Great Spies. So superior that it's restricted from any "serious" game.
I'm assuming you have no intention of pursuing any real espionage.
Really, it's the beakers you're getting out of this that make it worthwhile, though you may be able to view others' research and tech/trade appropriately.
Or Infiltrate, if you're comfortable with that. Hands down it's the best use of early Great Spies. So superior that it's restricted from any "serious" game.
