Pieman
Prince
Anyway, I'm just kidding, but geez...from April 15th to June 2nd?
Well I think he said he's never really done that well as Saladin so let's just be patient...
ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
Well I think he said he's never really done that well as Saladin so let's just be patient...
BornSlippy
Warlord
- Joined
- May 10, 2007
- Messages
- 119
You're acting like the kids in my school (I'm a teacher), moaning on about something when it's already been made clear what's happening. Susituil has contributed hugely to this forum and some of you aren't treating him very respectfully, in my opinion.
*runs for cover*
*runs for cover*
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2006
- Messages
- 2,431
No, May 24th.geez...from April 15th to June 2nd?
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I will play and hopefully post the next round tonight (finally). Better late than never.
Indeed. I'm itching to know what's happened.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Well, I played the round, which was somewhat uneventful... until the very end.
Unfortunately, it's Unca Sisiutil's beddy-bye time, so you'll all have to wait until tomorrow evening for the update.
Unfortunately, it's Unca Sisiutil's beddy-bye time, so you'll all have to wait until tomorrow evening for the update.
Your a cruel man Sisiutil, very cruel. I anxiously will be awaiting your next installment that was "somewhat uneventful."
To everyone who is upset over the length of time. I am glad. I personally think Saladin is the weakest leader. I think it would be best for everyone if we took our time and made sure we dont lose...
To everyone who is upset over the length of time. I am glad. I personally think Saladin is the weakest leader. I think it would be best for everyone if we took our time and made sure we dont lose...
Froggie818
Chieftain
What ARE we going to do if we lose again? Will there be a "Take 3" (which could conceivably take another 2-3 months) or will we move on to Lincoln and relagate Saladin to the end of the list?
Is it too early to start thinking about victory conditions? (Well, maybe after Sisi ends the suspense and posts this round.) If we still need direction, picking a victory may give us something long-term to aim for.
Mrsmiley2222
Chieftain
I say if we lose again, a take 3 should be put off for a while, but the not the end of the list. Plus what victory conditions should we be aiming for? I personally would want a diplomatic or cultural with Saladin.
JTMacc99
That's a paddlin'
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2008
- Messages
- 900
I think he already stated that in the event of another loss, we will be putting this leader in a shoebox and sticking him in the back of the hall closet behind the unsorted photographs from 1996 and the vacuum cleaner bags that don't fit the new one, but you saved anyway just in case the next vacuum takes that size.
Anyone think that the not-uneventful event has something to do with the crazy funny-looking guy to our northeast?
Anyone think that the not-uneventful event has something to do with the crazy funny-looking guy to our northeast?
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2006
- Messages
- 2,431
Aquarius_DJ
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2007
- Messages
- 16
I suggest we gift the city to Zara
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Round 9: 385 AD to 920 AD (38 turns)
Finally!
So I started the round by putting our plan to obtain Machinery with the GE in action. I agreed that acquiring Metal Casting through espionage was not going to be feasible for some time, so I decided to just research it on my own.
However, espionage did alert me to when the other civs were getting close to finishing techs--so I could trade the ones I had for something worthwhile without giving too much away. E.g.:
Not much of a deal normally, but notice that Sury was all of 4 turns from finishing CoL on his own. Under those circumstances, I call this a very good deal.
Before long, I had MC done and use the Great Engineer for a lightbulb.
After that, as you can see, Civil Service was the next target to maximize what I'd been doing with Mecca.
Another day, another tech trade with Suryavarman, who's positively chummy thus far in this game.
Monotheism may come in handy later; Monarchy opened up access to Feudalism and Protective Longbowmen.
Zara continues to be a wonder-hogging maniac:
Aksum is going to be one heckuva target. He also built Notre Dame there this round, if you can believe it. Other wonders completed this round include
Chichen Itza in the Khmer empire, Shwedagon Paya in America, and the Great Library somewhere else.
Meanwhile, I did manage to steal one tech thanks to espionage. Not a vital one, but still:
Once Civil Service was done, I changed civics...
...and began chain irrigating cities to help the nascent SE.
Though all of my neighbours had it, I researched this next tech on my own:
They simply wanted to much for it--usually Civil Service plus benefits, which also would have made them more dangerous. It was preferable to make them all research CS on their own.
I also was able to get cash gifts from Sury and Zara a couple of times and used it to fund deficit research for a turn or two--greatly accelerating my tech rate.
As you might notice, I was focusing largely on military techs this round, preparing to build my medieval army.
After this, I started on Guilds for the UU.
And just in time, too! I was thinking that I'd end the round once Guilds were complete and ask everybody who I should attack first and how, but that decision was taken away from me.
So Roosevelt has stepped up to the plate! Apparently he grew a couple when I wasn't looking. Frankly, I don't think he stands much of a chance. I'm a couple of military techs ahead of him and I'm about to add another.
Just to flesh out our discussions, I checked in with the other neighbours on their opinions. It looks like Zara wants to sit out this particular waltz, but Sury is willing to get involved:
But frankly, unless FDR has a monstrous stack up his sleeve, I don't see the need to pull Suryavarman in. I think he'll probably get involved soon enough anyway. What I foresee happening is that Roosevelt will throw some sort of stack at one of my cities and lose. Then I'll build up my own medieval army and go after him. As the American cities start to fall, along with Roosevelt's power rating, I predict that Suryavarman will then decide to get involved in typical opportunistic AI fashion. So I'd rather keep him out of it as long as I can.
Here's a look at the sitch, starting with foreign relations.
Trade deals:
I'd rather not trade my only source of spices to Sury, but it's all I have to offer him, and he's got a lot of gold to offer me. Well, except ivory, but I really don't want to enable Sury to start building his UU if I can avoid it.
Techs:
So Zara is still ahead, while I have Engineering and, soon, Guilds over Sury (thought not for long). Roosevelt is almost done Machinery, but by then I'll have Engineering and, very soon, Guilds on him, so his DoW seems like a lot of bravado on his part which I intend to make him regret. Not that a computer ever feels regret, but you get the point. (I wish the AI hadn't been programmed in BtS to stop begging for peace. I used to enjoy gloating at them.)
Military:
I have several units on their way to Baghdad, which appears to be Roosevelt's main target at the moment--maybe because he anticipates being able to park his stacks on its neighbouring hills. At least I got the jungles removed from them. I'm about to finish my first Pikeman in Mecca; they should be a big help against the War Elephants and Horse Archers the Americans seem to have available.
Power:
It's a little low, but I was focusing on infrastructure, as several of you recommended. I think what I should do now is switch the builds completely to a war footing.
Production:
It's a little low, but again, on your recommendations, I was mostly working food tiles rather than hammer tiles.
Demographics:
And finally, a look at the map:
So as I said, what I'm thinking of doing is leveraging Protective to absorb Roosevelt's initial attack(s) while I build my own army. Once he exhausts himself, I should be built up enough to go after him--and without any diplomatic penalties, since he declared war on me. What do you think of switching civics to Vasselage and Slavery to whip some units with extra XPs? Theocracy would do me no good, BTW, because there's still no religions on my continent. I'll initially need defensive units--Pikemen, Crossbowmen, Longbowmen, Catapults--then I'll move on to offensive units like Macemen, Trebuchets, and Camel Archers.
I plan to invade the NW first, going through Seattle and Philadelphia, then perhaps taking the American capital before mopping up Boston, NY, and Atlanta. Philadelphia contains the Shwedagon Paya, so that would allow me to switch into Free Religion for the +10% research bonus per city.
Once Roosevelt is done, I think Zara would be the next target of my wrath. He just has too many tempting wonders in his capital. I may consider taking Lalibela and Askum and then vassalizing Zara; he's a pretty good techer, and his UU might be handy in a fight against Sury. Thoughts?
After that, I say Sury and I go toe-to-toe for domination of the continent. It may be preferable to wait on Sury until I have Cannon to deal with his CI-powered cultural defenses.
Long before that point I should be meeting the other civs and getting a better idea as to what victory conditions are feasible; if I do indeed manage to conquer the continent, domination will be a possibility. So will space race if I think I can avoid an intercontinental invasion that could disrupt it.
So woo-hoo, I finally got myself a war! I'm suddenly feeling much better about this game.
Finally!
So I started the round by putting our plan to obtain Machinery with the GE in action. I agreed that acquiring Metal Casting through espionage was not going to be feasible for some time, so I decided to just research it on my own.
However, espionage did alert me to when the other civs were getting close to finishing techs--so I could trade the ones I had for something worthwhile without giving too much away. E.g.:
Not much of a deal normally, but notice that Sury was all of 4 turns from finishing CoL on his own. Under those circumstances, I call this a very good deal.
Before long, I had MC done and use the Great Engineer for a lightbulb.
After that, as you can see, Civil Service was the next target to maximize what I'd been doing with Mecca.
Another day, another tech trade with Suryavarman, who's positively chummy thus far in this game.
Monotheism may come in handy later; Monarchy opened up access to Feudalism and Protective Longbowmen.
Zara continues to be a wonder-hogging maniac:
Aksum is going to be one heckuva target. He also built Notre Dame there this round, if you can believe it. Other wonders completed this round include
Chichen Itza in the Khmer empire, Shwedagon Paya in America, and the Great Library somewhere else.
Meanwhile, I did manage to steal one tech thanks to espionage. Not a vital one, but still:
Once Civil Service was done, I changed civics...
...and began chain irrigating cities to help the nascent SE.
Though all of my neighbours had it, I researched this next tech on my own:
They simply wanted to much for it--usually Civil Service plus benefits, which also would have made them more dangerous. It was preferable to make them all research CS on their own.
I also was able to get cash gifts from Sury and Zara a couple of times and used it to fund deficit research for a turn or two--greatly accelerating my tech rate.
As you might notice, I was focusing largely on military techs this round, preparing to build my medieval army.
After this, I started on Guilds for the UU.
And just in time, too! I was thinking that I'd end the round once Guilds were complete and ask everybody who I should attack first and how, but that decision was taken away from me.
So Roosevelt has stepped up to the plate! Apparently he grew a couple when I wasn't looking. Frankly, I don't think he stands much of a chance. I'm a couple of military techs ahead of him and I'm about to add another.
Just to flesh out our discussions, I checked in with the other neighbours on their opinions. It looks like Zara wants to sit out this particular waltz, but Sury is willing to get involved:
But frankly, unless FDR has a monstrous stack up his sleeve, I don't see the need to pull Suryavarman in. I think he'll probably get involved soon enough anyway. What I foresee happening is that Roosevelt will throw some sort of stack at one of my cities and lose. Then I'll build up my own medieval army and go after him. As the American cities start to fall, along with Roosevelt's power rating, I predict that Suryavarman will then decide to get involved in typical opportunistic AI fashion. So I'd rather keep him out of it as long as I can.
Here's a look at the sitch, starting with foreign relations.
Trade deals:
I'd rather not trade my only source of spices to Sury, but it's all I have to offer him, and he's got a lot of gold to offer me. Well, except ivory, but I really don't want to enable Sury to start building his UU if I can avoid it.
Techs:
So Zara is still ahead, while I have Engineering and, soon, Guilds over Sury (thought not for long). Roosevelt is almost done Machinery, but by then I'll have Engineering and, very soon, Guilds on him, so his DoW seems like a lot of bravado on his part which I intend to make him regret. Not that a computer ever feels regret, but you get the point. (I wish the AI hadn't been programmed in BtS to stop begging for peace. I used to enjoy gloating at them.)
Military:
I have several units on their way to Baghdad, which appears to be Roosevelt's main target at the moment--maybe because he anticipates being able to park his stacks on its neighbouring hills. At least I got the jungles removed from them. I'm about to finish my first Pikeman in Mecca; they should be a big help against the War Elephants and Horse Archers the Americans seem to have available.
Power:
It's a little low, but I was focusing on infrastructure, as several of you recommended. I think what I should do now is switch the builds completely to a war footing.
Production:
It's a little low, but again, on your recommendations, I was mostly working food tiles rather than hammer tiles.
Demographics:
And finally, a look at the map:
So as I said, what I'm thinking of doing is leveraging Protective to absorb Roosevelt's initial attack(s) while I build my own army. Once he exhausts himself, I should be built up enough to go after him--and without any diplomatic penalties, since he declared war on me. What do you think of switching civics to Vasselage and Slavery to whip some units with extra XPs? Theocracy would do me no good, BTW, because there's still no religions on my continent. I'll initially need defensive units--Pikemen, Crossbowmen, Longbowmen, Catapults--then I'll move on to offensive units like Macemen, Trebuchets, and Camel Archers.
I plan to invade the NW first, going through Seattle and Philadelphia, then perhaps taking the American capital before mopping up Boston, NY, and Atlanta. Philadelphia contains the Shwedagon Paya, so that would allow me to switch into Free Religion for the +10% research bonus per city.
Once Roosevelt is done, I think Zara would be the next target of my wrath. He just has too many tempting wonders in his capital. I may consider taking Lalibela and Askum and then vassalizing Zara; he's a pretty good techer, and his UU might be handy in a fight against Sury. Thoughts?
After that, I say Sury and I go toe-to-toe for domination of the continent. It may be preferable to wait on Sury until I have Cannon to deal with his CI-powered cultural defenses.
Long before that point I should be meeting the other civs and getting a better idea as to what victory conditions are feasible; if I do indeed manage to conquer the continent, domination will be a possibility. So will space race if I think I can avoid an intercontinental invasion that could disrupt it.
So woo-hoo, I finally got myself a war! I'm suddenly feeling much better about this game.
Bandobras Took
Emperor
Only question: have you whipped a castle in the target city? 
Other than that, I'm not much of a Warmonger. Camel Archers are great for wiping out Siege Units.
Other than that, I'm not much of a Warmonger. Camel Archers are great for wiping out Siege Units.
Lord Chambers
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2001
- Messages
- 1,004
Bulbing Machinery is almost pointless when you then go on to research Civil Service but not build Macemen, then Feudalism, only lastly bothering with Engineering.
Engineering is the key tech if you actually want to wage war, but I guess if you want to get invaded Feudalism is handy. Delaying Engineering means you will face Macemen, possibly Knights, and more archers than you would have if you had struck quickly and actually tried to capitalize on bulbing Machinery.
It might seem like researching random military techs is "preparing for war," but it's not. Building siege weapons + city raiding units = preparing for war. Your war will always be more effective executed 20 turns earlier than lollygagging for 20 turns so you can build Longbows which shouldn't get into combat and Camel Archers which are unnecessary. I know both units are nice to have, but it's better to find yourself in a bind with just a regular archer defending a city than to find your whole invasion is grinding to a halt because your stack is getting attacked by Crossbows, Knights, and Macemen, and catapults. Only in this latter situation will you really need good troops to garrison because you can't keep enough offense going to limit the enemy to his cities.
When you can invade, do so. If you can't, your whole strategy should be oriented towards getting to the point which you can, as soon as possible.
Engineering is the key tech if you actually want to wage war, but I guess if you want to get invaded Feudalism is handy. Delaying Engineering means you will face Macemen, possibly Knights, and more archers than you would have if you had struck quickly and actually tried to capitalize on bulbing Machinery.
It might seem like researching random military techs is "preparing for war," but it's not. Building siege weapons + city raiding units = preparing for war. Your war will always be more effective executed 20 turns earlier than lollygagging for 20 turns so you can build Longbows which shouldn't get into combat and Camel Archers which are unnecessary. I know both units are nice to have, but it's better to find yourself in a bind with just a regular archer defending a city than to find your whole invasion is grinding to a halt because your stack is getting attacked by Crossbows, Knights, and Macemen, and catapults. Only in this latter situation will you really need good troops to garrison because you can't keep enough offense going to limit the enemy to his cities.
When you can invade, do so. If you can't, your whole strategy should be oriented towards getting to the point which you can, as soon as possible.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Well, LC, if you recall, much of the advice after the following round amounted to "Don't go to war yet, you're not ready; focus on infrastructure". So that's what I did, which is why I have a relative dearth of units. 38 turns is, frankly, not a lot of time to build both infrastructure and an offensive military stack. Especially on Epic speed and above. I wasn't about to declare war, and was hoping to hold off for just a while longer, but Roosevelt had other ideas. Fortunately, toward the end of the round I was beginning to shift my focus to military anyway, so each of my northern border cities has a Protective Longbow and a couple of other medieval units on the way.
I would contend that acquiring the necessary techs is, in a way, preparing for war, since you have the ability to build/chop/whip/buy the required units. As I recall, your tech level/unit availability also count toward your power rating, though yes, not nearly as much as units.
Regarding Feudalism: it was a diversion I indulged in to take advantage of the Protective trait. As for not building Macemen and Trebs yet, I thought it made more sense to hold off until I had my entire civ on a war footing so I could switch into Vassalage to give those units an extra promotion. Protective units, however, are already formidable with only 3 XP, as are mounted units thanks to barracks and stables (I built a couple of War Elephants too).
So I focused on those, especially since those are the units I would need to fend off an unexpected invasion, which this is. Macemen don't see action in my games until I'm on an offensive footing, which won't be for a while.
In other words, be patient. I was getting there. Roosevelt has now forced me to move my agenda up, and that's not a bad thing.
I would contend that acquiring the necessary techs is, in a way, preparing for war, since you have the ability to build/chop/whip/buy the required units. As I recall, your tech level/unit availability also count toward your power rating, though yes, not nearly as much as units.
Regarding Feudalism: it was a diversion I indulged in to take advantage of the Protective trait. As for not building Macemen and Trebs yet, I thought it made more sense to hold off until I had my entire civ on a war footing so I could switch into Vassalage to give those units an extra promotion. Protective units, however, are already formidable with only 3 XP, as are mounted units thanks to barracks and stables (I built a couple of War Elephants too).
So I focused on those, especially since those are the units I would need to fend off an unexpected invasion, which this is. Macemen don't see action in my games until I'm on an offensive footing, which won't be for a while.
In other words, be patient. I was getting there. Roosevelt has now forced me to move my agenda up, and that's not a bad thing.
Meanwhile, I did manage to steal one tech thanks to espionage. Not a vital one, but still:
It is pretty funny to imagine the dark fortress of the hashashim conceiving a mission in which, via hook, crook, and targeted killing, they steal the secrets of artistic taste from what has got to be the prime tourist country of the medieval world.
It is pretty funny to imagine the dark fortress of the hashashim conceiving a mission in which, via hook, crook, and targeted killing, they steal the secrets of artistic taste from what has got to be the prime tourist country of the medieval world.
Probably one of the funniest things said on this fourm... well... besides
On topic...
I am actually happy that Roosevelt attacked you before you were COMPLETLY ready. This allows you to show off protective a bit... well... for what its worth to show off protective. So just got to show off the Camel Archers and we can call this a wrap. =]
I say just take the whole continent. While, yes, it does depend on who is on the other side of the world, I personally find it easier to stem off an invasion from overseas when I can control the whole coast around me. Plus, the cities you want to take from Zara will cripple him pretty bad.
If you decide to go for space race, it might be a good idea to kill Sury and Zara off the continent, then capitulate them and let them settle all the islands around you, which would make it MUCH more difficult for the AI to invade you overseas. You would just need to keep your power rating high enough to scare the AI's from declaring on your vassal's ... just my two cents.
Going slightly off topic...
Spoiler :
