PaulusIII
Unholy Warlord
Sal's not going to attack anymore, he's left WHEOOHRN.
ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
Well, so much for the MS vs Steel debate. What an absolute punk. If he had pounced when he had the chance things would have been quite ugly in Babylon. I wasted a lot of time debating and for nothing. And sal isn't even in WHEOOHRN anymore.
Ok, Crisis (or pretend crisis) avoided. Now what.
I reccome=mend burning th GS for a GA to switch to caste and representation. You're not whipping anything anywhere so why stay in slavery? You have 2 nice GP farms and are not using them. Speaking of nice GP farms...have you looked at Nidaros? FIVE seafood. It is begging you to attack ragnar and build the globe theatre there.
I am not sure what to say at this point because to be honest, i have absolutely no idea what Sis' plans are.
Ok, Crisis (or pretend crisis) avoided. Now what.
I reccome=mend burning th GS for a GA to switch to caste and representation. You're not whipping anything anywhere so why stay in slavery? You have 2 nice GP farms and are not using them. Speaking of nice GP farms...have you looked at Nidaros? FIVE seafood. It is begging you to attack ragnar and build the globe theatre there.
I am not sure what to say at this point because to be honest, i have absolutely no idea what Sis' plans are.
rupertmonkey
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2007
- Messages
- 35
CivCorpse, I find your posts so entertaining that I hope you don't quit despite the fact that Sis totally ignored your advice. Personally, I agreed with everything you said before (except the part about burning the GE).
Sis, I don't think you should burn the GS. Golden Ages are overrated. Anarchy schmanarchy. My advice is to attack Sal. Why? Because you seem bored. That's okay. Sometimes we get bored with our games. Attack, spice up your life. If you lose, whoopdedoop. You become more engaged (maybe), and we spectators learn something.
Go punch him in the nuts. You know you want to.
Sis, I don't think you should burn the GS. Golden Ages are overrated. Anarchy schmanarchy. My advice is to attack Sal. Why? Because you seem bored. That's okay. Sometimes we get bored with our games. Attack, spice up your life. If you lose, whoopdedoop. You become more engaged (maybe), and we spectators learn something.
Go punch him in the nuts. You know you want to.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Nice to see someone appreciates the extra effort I sometimes put in.
I didn't ignore everything he said, do I? Granted, I went after Cannon rather than Grens this time, but I also find CC's posts not only entertaining but enlightening. So even if the discussion came for naught, it was still worthwhile.
Artichoker
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2007
- Messages
- 1,711
Hannibal doesn't have Liberalism yet (it's in his "Can Research" column of techs), which is amazing...almost as good as popping a Great Prophet instead of a Great Scientist to build the Christian shrine. This means that the supercharged tech boost from Liberalism was wasted on Pacal, and he shared some of that boost with you through tech trades.
Once Hannibal gets Liberalism (it could be any time now), look for him to switch to Free Speech to gain an uber-powerful GNP. At that point, you should get ready to execute a win strategy. With the war plan vs. Saladin put in action, the extra GNP you gain through Vassalage and Free Religion will grow as you conquer more of Saladin's cities. This can be stretched even further by adopting Representation (and maybe Mercantilism, depending on the situation).
Delay Scientific Method to maximize the effect of monasteries and the Great Library. Prioritize Assembly Line in preparation for post-war deployment. Then get Education at rock-bottom price. Once you capture Stone from Saladin, build Oxford University and prepare for teching towards Assembly Line and Combustion.
Once Hannibal gets Liberalism (it could be any time now), look for him to switch to Free Speech to gain an uber-powerful GNP. At that point, you should get ready to execute a win strategy. With the war plan vs. Saladin put in action, the extra GNP you gain through Vassalage and Free Religion will grow as you conquer more of Saladin's cities. This can be stretched even further by adopting Representation (and maybe Mercantilism, depending on the situation).
Delay Scientific Method to maximize the effect of monasteries and the Great Library. Prioritize Assembly Line in preparation for post-war deployment. Then get Education at rock-bottom price. Once you capture Stone from Saladin, build Oxford University and prepare for teching towards Assembly Line and Combustion.
Dirk1302
Deity
@civcorpse, 
. Actually i don't think the debate was for nothing. At first I wouldn't have considered going grens at all, you convinced me that it's a viable option at least in this situation. But indeed the debate cost a lot of time 
.
On the current situation, it's 1310 AD now and it's really time to get this war against Sal started, i'd go nationhood now, draft some rifles, get the cannon stack to ~15 and attack within ~5 turns. It's epic so there's some more time than on normal but if Sal get steel or even rifling it becomes much more difficult.
. Actually i don't think the debate was for nothing. At first I wouldn't have considered going grens at all, you convinced me that it's a viable option at least in this situation. But indeed the debate cost a lot of time .On the current situation, it's 1310 AD now and it's really time to get this war against Sal started, i'd go nationhood now, draft some rifles, get the cannon stack to ~15 and attack within ~5 turns. It's epic so there's some more time than on normal but if Sal get steel or even rifling it becomes much more difficult.
Of course, with humans so much better at warring than the computer, perhaps Sis has inadvertantly upgraded to the "we will only attack when absolutely sure of a steam-roll, otherwise we will await the human's DoW, when all AIs will immediately dog-pile the aggressor. After all, the game isn't a competition between ten civilizations. It's a struggle between two teams, the human's and the AI's..." edition of the game...
DanF5771
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2008
- Messages
- 1,194
Sissy Sal:
Saladin has discarded his war plans (out of WHEOOH again) because he has assessed his offensive power not high enough after the (fixed!) turns of preparation.
If I understand it correctly the game mechanics for this assessment are rather funny as they only let Sal consider his offensive task force (= number of units with AI ATTACK, ATTACK_CITY and PILLAGE) in relation to the number and size of his cities. In contrast to his decision to start preparing for a war, this judgement is completely independent of your power and the strength of the units he has, so upgrading his Camels and Jumbos didn't help either. As part of his personality he also favors to build units with (the wrong) UNITAI_COUNTER (XML-value UnitAIWeightModifier) during times of peace. Together with his protective trait this turns him more into a strong defender than a real threatening offensive aggressor (compare to Monty!).
I went back to the 990AD save and deleted all your units, canceled open borders and bonus trade deals with Sal, traded with his worst enemy Mehmed, switched to Pacifism and Christianity so I got him to -9 FURIOUS and became his new worst enemy--he still switched out of WHEOOH in 1130AD !!!
(the message comes from my modified test-dll)
So overall he just considered himself too fat to get his attack started. Interesting...
And yeah, I share Artichoker's concern about Hannibal and his GNP. I think a large part of this comes from his cothon boosted trade routes since this is a very strong TRE map. Maybe switching to Merc will slow things down a bit here. (Look at your imports/exports.)
Saladin has discarded his war plans (out of WHEOOH again) because he has assessed his offensive power not high enough after the (fixed!) turns of preparation.
If I understand it correctly the game mechanics for this assessment are rather funny as they only let Sal consider his offensive task force (= number of units with AI ATTACK, ATTACK_CITY and PILLAGE) in relation to the number and size of his cities. In contrast to his decision to start preparing for a war, this judgement is completely independent of your power and the strength of the units he has, so upgrading his Camels and Jumbos didn't help either. As part of his personality he also favors to build units with (the wrong) UNITAI_COUNTER (XML-value UnitAIWeightModifier) during times of peace. Together with his protective trait this turns him more into a strong defender than a real threatening offensive aggressor (compare to Monty!).
I went back to the 990AD save and deleted all your units, canceled open borders and bonus trade deals with Sal, traded with his worst enemy Mehmed, switched to Pacifism and Christianity so I got him to -9 FURIOUS and became his new worst enemy--he still switched out of WHEOOH in 1130AD !!!
(the message comes from my modified test-dll)
So overall he just considered himself too fat to get his attack started. Interesting...
And yeah, I share Artichoker's concern about Hannibal and his GNP. I think a large part of this comes from his cothon boosted trade routes since this is a very strong TRE map. Maybe switching to Merc will slow things down a bit here. (Look at your imports/exports.)
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
Agreed.@civcorpse,
On the current situation, it's 1310 AD now and it's really time to get this war against Sal started, i'd go nationhood now, draft some rifles, get the cannon stack to ~15 and attack within ~5 turns. It's epic so there's some more time than on normal but if Sal get steel or even rifling it becomes much more difficult.
If Saladin's stack is still sitting in Kufah, declare and obliterate it as soon as you have enough cannons. Waiting for Sal to declare just lets him pick when/where. If he's dumb enough to leave his army exposed in a border city, let him pay for it.
If you have a quick draft/whip blitz to boost numbers of rifles/cannons, moving from south to north through the empire, you can double or triple the size of your stack in 5-10 turns. Focusing 100% on war like this will give you a short-term hit, but reap rewards long-term by killing off Arabia much quicker.
==========
In terms of tech, MilSci is a total bust now that you have rifles/cannons. Steam power/corporation will be much more useful assuming you're looking to trade for SciMeth.
Dirk1302
Deity
@DanF5771, that's convincing 
.Didn't know they could switch out of wheooh for this reason.
Funny this should come up now, i just got the SDK compiled and am planning to do the sort of investigation you did here to find out about all the factors that make an ai go to war in the first place.
.Didn't know they could switch out of wheooh for this reason.Funny this should come up now, i just got the SDK compiled and am planning to do the sort of investigation you did here to find out about all the factors that make an ai go to war in the first place.
Celebithil
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2004
- Messages
- 219
In one of the posts from CivCorpse defending his choice for going for grenadiers first (which to me was enlightening) I was wondering how he got to the 45% chance of winning for Cuirassiers vs. Pikes. So I'd figured I would remind everyone that winning possibilities of 45% are impossible, if no first strikes or wounded units are in play. The (strange) way battles work imply that if you have even the tiniest advantage you will already have at least 321/512 = 62,7% chance of winning (and thus at most 37,3% chance of losing).
As for the plan now, waiting for Saladin to declare can take quite long as he first has to decide that he wants to declare war at all (small change each turn). After that roll he probably still wants to attack Sis, but would first enter the pre-war army building mode, and only then (probably) declare (of course you never know for sure ;-)). This will take a long time and moreover you don't want him to enter a military build-up mode before war anyway. Thus I suggest that Sis strikes as soon as he is ready.
As for the plan now, waiting for Saladin to declare can take quite long as he first has to decide that he wants to declare war at all (small change each turn). After that roll he probably still wants to attack Sis, but would first enter the pre-war army building mode, and only then (probably) declare (of course you never know for sure ;-)). This will take a long time and moreover you don't want him to enter a military build-up mode before war anyway. Thus I suggest that Sis strikes as soon as he is ready.
Dirk1302
Deity
He means retreating chance = 45% for flankII cuirassiers and after a retreat flanking damage occurs. In addition there's the chance of a cuirassier actually winning. If the pikes are in a cultural defended city this chance is not so big.
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
and anyway, flanking doesn't occur when defender stack is in a city; only in the field
r_rolo1
King of myself
What version of Sal is S man using? I only have the "Declare immediately if I don't give him nationalism " one 
I haven't saw the save , but my instinct says that it is time to move to kufah and cannon all those cuiraseers before they move.... IMHO they are pure sitting ducks now
I haven't saw the save , but my instinct says that it is time to move to kufah and cannon all those cuiraseers before they move.... IMHO they are pure sitting ducks now
Artichoker
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2007
- Messages
- 1,711
There is a way to accelerate military production without drafting.
Thanks to the emphasis on the Guilds tech path, Sisiutil's gold multipliers are higher than if he had taken the Education path. These multipliers can be leveraged by lowering the slider to about 40%.
The extra gold gained through this change can be used to upgrade Macemen and Pikemen to Riflemen. This applies especially wrt the HE city, which can focus on building Macemen. One other city can build Pikemen as extra support for Riflemen.
The extra gold gained by lowering the slider can be used to upgrade units where needed. Experienced units are usually given priority for these upgrades, and unit type also is a deciding factor.
The current leader's trait of Organized has a half-price civic bonus that is leveraged better through Vassalage than Nationhood. And having Vassalage retains the +2 XP bonus that is available without Theocracy.
Thanks to the emphasis on the Guilds tech path, Sisiutil's gold multipliers are higher than if he had taken the Education path. These multipliers can be leveraged by lowering the slider to about 40%.
The extra gold gained through this change can be used to upgrade Macemen and Pikemen to Riflemen. This applies especially wrt the HE city, which can focus on building Macemen. One other city can build Pikemen as extra support for Riflemen.
The extra gold gained by lowering the slider can be used to upgrade units where needed. Experienced units are usually given priority for these upgrades, and unit type also is a deciding factor.
The current leader's trait of Organized has a half-price civic bonus that is leveraged better through Vassalage than Nationhood. And having Vassalage retains the +2 XP bonus that is available without Theocracy.
Artichoker
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2007
- Messages
- 1,711
come to the Dark Side Luke...join the Empire
I will never join the Empire! I will never adopt Nationhood!
I am your father...
No, it's not true!
Bandobras Took
Emperor
pigswill
fly (one day)
Can´t load the save so I don´t know what Sis´army is like (no F5 screenshot). However once Sis is happy(ish) with his army then he should declare on Sal but wait for Sal to invade and annihilate his main stack on home territory, then invade and conquer Arabia. Doing it that way should help keep war weariness manageable until the war is won.
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