ALC Game #25: Celts/Boudica, Take 2

[bobbyboy29]

First off I'd like to say thanks and welcome back to you sis, I found your ALC's by accident and have been hooked on CFC ever since, I'd love to help you out but it seems the others have got it all covered, the only thing i haent noticed being mentioned yet is the landmass to your west, possibly another continent or an island for settling, anyway good luck and im looking forward to seeing some super promoted units!

 

[30+]

Yes, welcome back indeed! I've always loved reading your webpage and all your articles because the are very informative. It's also easy to see you love the game, community, and helping those who need it. It's always wonderful to see the return of such a classy player. Keep up the good work .

 

[DanF5771]

Aahh, Sis is back! Somehow the S&T forum without a fast growing ALC thread constantly on page #1 simply felt wrong.

I don't think the GLH is easy to get on this map at all. A bunch of peaceful techers with only little land to expand (9 civs, medium sea level) naturally leads to quick vertical AI growth and thus early WWs and very quick overall tech progress (although NTB might limit the tech speed somewhat, but I see a lot of flood plains and gold and happy resources down in the SE). I'd rather let Lincoln build the GLH -- he seems to have a very strong coastal capital (already size 6, 2nd city out, horses, cows, lots of hills, most likely 2 sea food, MARBLE in 3rd ring). But a MC sling via Oracle would be great with Gold and Gems, Copper->Colossus and a lot of barb Galley breeding places nearby (although the majority of your potential sea food is barb-safe on ocean tiles).

So I'd either try to chop the Oracle (-> settle Fish/Copper, the Panther will probably dissolve soon) or hurry and choke Mansa with a couple of Guerrilla II Gallic Warriors (they can move swiftly through the jungle hills to prevent him from hooking up Metals + pillage + steal Workers, but GWs aren't that great vs. Skirmishers...; -> settle 1N of Rice, needs escort).

Hopefully Feudalism and Machinery won't spoil the GW-fun too soon!

 

[oynaz]

Regarding that panther, why not use your scouts for settler escort if they are close enough? 2 scouts should easily be a match for a single panther.

 

[Fetch]

Welcome back, Sis. I think the Copper/fish city will only "net" you 1 fish tile. The one to the southeast looks too far to be in the BFC.

 

[jesbro]

Spoiler :

I have a strategy that will work for you (It sure worked for me, hard but worked).

1. Build a huge army and research Military Techs

2. Make Friends with Zara(ETH) and Lincoln(USA) but keep Mansa happy for tech trading (Trust me you will need it).

3. Declare War on Wang and get Zara and Lin to also DEC on him and hit him with a huge STACK OF DOOM made from the army on #1.

4. Any cities you get, keep them and get their culture up so you can get a Domination Victory.

Ill have more strategies for you after you finish Round 2.

 

[Munch]

I have a strategy that will work for you (It sure worked for me, hard but worked).

If you're giving advice based on playing the save yourself, that might be considered by some to be a spoiler.

 

[noto2]

jesbro don't talk about shadow games unless you use spoilers, please. Sisiutil doesn't want to know things about the map he hasn't seen for himself.

 

[ori]

I lend a hand with jesbro's post there - but please post by Sisiutil's rules here (as well as the forum rules of course ):

Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and to make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers--i.e. any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on--before I'm there myself. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.

 

[jesbro]

I technically didnt say anything about the map. just the people we already met on the map.

 

[Sisiutil]

If it's "try this, I think it will work, it has for me in the past", it's not a spoiler.

If it's "try this, I just tried it on this map, and it worked for me", it's a spoiler.

I would encourage you to start a parallel spoiler thread--many have before for past ALCs, and they've been popular!

 

[Artichoker]

This is a really tough map indeed, but I agree with Gliese's city choices.


One thing you'll have to decide is whether to research Iron Working or trade for it...If you can manage to settle 4 cities without needing to cut down jungle, then I think the better move is to wait until you can trade for Iron Working, rather than research it yourself. Some of those desert cities can be rather productive in the early game, especially with several resources apiece. Don't be deceived by the desert! Desert cities with enough resources can still be productive, at least until you start to expand more.

 

[DarkFyre99]

It looks like I've come up with an almost identical dotmap as Gliese's, but here it is anyways...

 

[Gliese 581]

It looks like I've come up with an almost identical dotmap as Gliese's, but here it is anyways...

Yeah pretty much. I've changed my mind about pink crab city though, it's better to move it 1W in order to claim the wine with 2nd pop, crab and whip + stone should give enough prod to get a library for a small 2x scientist city. The oasis can be claimed by the silk city just east of the wine that I put on my map.
As for the easternmost wheat city, that looks fine but I don't think we'll be first to claim it unless we go there very soon and it doesn't offer enough to warrant the strain on the economy it would cost. If it's still there after 4 cities or so it's a valid option though.
Of course all these positions are guesswork before we get information on horses and iron and see how the AI and diplo play out.

 

[DarkFyre99]

Yeah pretty much. I've changed my mind about pink crab city though, it's better to move it 1W in order to claim the wine with 2nd pop, crab and whip + stone should give enough prod to get a library for a small 2x scientist city. The oasis can be claimed by the silk city just east of the wine that I put on my map.

Unfortunately, there's no way to claim both the clams and the wine. You'd have to move the city 1SW onto the stone in order to get the wine, which would put the clams out of range.

As for the easternmost wheat city, that looks fine but I don't think we'll be first to claim it unless we go there very soon and it doesn't offer enough to warrant the strain on the economy it would cost. If it's still there after 4 cities or so it's a valid option though.

With deserts to the north, and jungles to the southeast, and our nearest neighbor far to the east and having founded a holy city, this is one map where I'd wait until construction before going to war. Given that the copper will soon be claimed by the capital's next border pop, yellow can wait. I think eastern pink (I'd call stone-clams magenta myself ) would be worthwhile trying for after founding cyan, purple, and blue, assuming it has a strategic resource and hasn't been claimed by Mansa, of course.

Of course all these positions are guesswork before we get information on horses and iron and see how the AI and diplo play out.

Unless they appear in the northern wastes unclaimed by magenta and salmon, or in the hills south of pink's borders, I don't foresee needing to change anything. The cities to the south and southeast have everything else covered.

 

[Munch]

It looks like I've come up with an almost identical dotmap as Gliese's, but here it is anyways...

It looks good, but I would suggest moving the easternmost city. The fish near it can only be claimed by settling 2S of it, which also gets you the wheat and the currently unclaimed clam. Not that you can't still settle there with your current dotmap, but why not move the pink city 1S, claiming the riverside tiles to the south? The clam will need a border pop, sure, but you can settle the fish city first which doesn't need a pop, and backfill.

Anyway, tough looking map. As much as I think aggressively settling towards the enemy is the best thing to, in this case we both need the copper early and don't want to dive into the jungle straight away. So, the copper city has to go down first, followed by the gem city. This makes Ironworking a priority (not that it wasn't already), and I would say we should forego any wonders, with the possible exception of the Great Lighthouse, which is perfect for this situation. But would we have an early coastal city with enough production to get it? Can we afford to go for Sailing while we need Ironworking so badly? Perhaps it would be best to hold off and go for the Colossus as early-wonder-of-choice, at least we get a production bonus for that one.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I am not even sure if this game is winnable. Here goes...

One thing no one has mentioned so far. See Gliese's dot-map: 7 cities, all coastal. Going for the Great Lighthouse might be a good idea. The copper city would be a good place to build it. It can take a few forests from the capital and build it pretty fast.

1) Please don't try the Great Lighthouse on immortal. Your chances of success is very low. 200 hammers belong to 5 swordsman, 6 axeman or 8 chariots. And how long would sailing + lighthouse in an expansion take?

Don't be all that over anxious to get Iron working. Either settle down the economy first or smash MM fast for his cities!

2) Iron working is a priority. Desert cities are too far and you cannot build cottages there to support the maintenance. Your only choice is clear away jungle for cottages. It also opens up the gems for happiness and commerce.

One thought that is nagging me is how The Oracle looks good on this map. Stonehenge isn't that valuable because you need to get a blocking city out in the jungle, which may put the Oracle at risk. On the other hand, it's perfectly possible to build the Oracle after settling 2 cities. I've done this on deity, so it should be doable on immortal.

3) Don't go for Oracle/Code of Laws. To do it in time means greatly delaying iron working. Besides, the Great Lighthouse argument still stands: can you afford to produce enough units for a rush and also spare 150 hammers? On immortal? Against a creative leader, a protective leader or a leader with an archery UU? Give me a break.

I would tech Wheel>Fish>Agi>...?

4) I would do Agri - fish - wheel. You need to grow your capital before you worry about expansions. Fish you need for your second and third city. The wheel you won't actually need until your cities grew enough to need access to gold and copper.

 

[carl corey]

The thing is, those of us advising Sisiutil to build a wonder/several wonders don't want him to rush at the same time. I may not regularly play at Immortal, but I know you can't sink that amount of hammers into wonders and still take on the AIs. In previous Emperor/Immortal Cookbooks we've had situations in which we built a decent amount of wonders, the same thing could work here. Especially since I don't think we'll get attacked by Mansa or Lincoln any time soon. The problem is teching fast enough to get the desired wonders, which is why GLH + Oracle are tough to get. Hammers should not be a problem if we keep our forests and use them at the right moment.

 

[Munch]

<lots of good advice>

I have to echo these tips. No rush Sis, but we're dying to see how this turns out...

 

[patagonia]

The thing is, those of us advising Sisiutil to build a wonder/several wonders don't want him to rush at the same time. I may not regularly play at Immortal, but I know you can't sink that amount of hammers into wonders and still take on the AIs. In previous Emperor/Immortal Cookbooks we've had situations in which we built a decent amount of wonders, the same thing could work here. Especially since I don't think we'll get attacked by Mansa or Lincoln any time soon. The problem is teching fast enough to get the desired wonders, which is why GLH + Oracle are tough to get. Hammers should not be a problem if we keep our forests and use them at the right moment.

Wonders will be more effective than military pre-construction with these neighbours.

With skirmishers, Mansa's a PITA to rush with axes or swords, so you'll likely be better off making a peaceful land-grab now and going to war later. The others will all likely play nice with each other, meaning a fast tech pace, but smaller enemy states to annex later. None of them unit spam in a big way either, which is a bonus.

Gliese's dotmap looks sweet to me.