ALC Game #25: Celts/Boudica, Take 2

Round 1: 4000 BC to 2850 BC (46 turns)

Most of you called for moving the Scout NE, and I agreed. We can see that there's coast to the west, but since we pretty much all agreed to settle in place, exploring it could wait.



The Scout revealed an additional resource, a rice tile--very nice. That confirmed our decision to settle in place, which I promptly did.



The first build, as recommended, was a Worker; I also chose Animal Husbandry as my first research target. Why not mining? My reasoning was that the capital needed to grow its population in order to work the mine tile, and putting a pasture on the cows would help with that goal considerably. I've learned in Civ IV, after many long, hard lessons, that when given a choice of priorities, food almost always wins.



With 9 civs on the map and medium sea levels, it didn't take long for the neighbours to start showing up.



Normally I'd cozy up to Mansa, since he's such a great tech trading partner, but if he's my closest neighbour, he'll be the first to fall to the Gallic Warriors. If I'm in luck, he'll found a religion and even build a wonder or two before I kill him.

By the way, Mansa showed up from the southeast, as did all the other civs that followed--once the map is revealed further (read on), you'll see why.

On turn 19, AH was done:



Unfortunately, there are no ponies in the vicinity:



My Worker was complete a few turns later, and I got to work on a Scout to further aid exploration. Gotta leverage starting with hunting somehow, especially as there are no camp resources nearby.



On a side note, it's actually kind of liberating to not play with tribal villages. My Scouts were able to focus solely on exploring without any tangential diversions to goody huts. I was also able to take a little more time and avoid some risky situations I'd normally tolerate in the quest for free stuff.

Someone founded Islam. Guess who? ;)



Now I just need him to generate a Great Prophet for the shrine. Although I have noticed in some off-line games lately, the AI making the :smoke: move of settling a Great Prophet when they have a holy city with a widespread religion desperately in need of a shrine. :mad: And we thought settling one tile from the coast was bad! Maybe it's a way of thwarting the ambitions of warmongering human players?

On the diplomatic front, the floodgates opened:







As I mentioned, all are to my southeast. Mansa is more east than south, with Wang Kon further to his east, while Lincoln is more south than east, with Zara further away (thank heavens, I HATE starting next door to a Creative leader) in that same direction.

The next tech was done on turn 30:



I had the Worker start digging a mine on the gold right away, to speed up research of the next tech, the ever-popular Bronze Working.

To that end, I began building a Settler in the capital in anticipation of having copper nearby. Even if it isn't, I wanted to start expanding.



The gold mine was ready quickly and sped up research of BW considerably. meanwhile, I kept exploring and discovering rival territory while dodging barb animals.



Oh, sure, Lincoln has horses. Not me though!

And on turn 46, where I ended the round...



And yes, you can see at lower left that I have copper very close by, so close that if we had moved the Settler one tile in that direction it would be in the capital's fat cross. As things stand, I'll have to found a city down there.

Here's a look at the map as I've explored it thus far.



So the good news is I have a lot of land available to my north for settling. The bad news, as you can see, is that a lot of it is desert. Not all of it though, and there are plenty of resources to compensate. You can see where Mansa is--see the colour-coded rice tile to the SE? Lincoln's territory, meanwhile, is south of those gold and silk tiles.

So the first priority is getting that copper going. I've already seen my first barb military unit, so I need to be ready. The Settler is almost done, but as you might have noticed in the BW screen shot, there's a panther wandering around the city site. Looks like I may have to insert a Warrior (maybe two) into the build queue and send him out to fight or die.

I was thinking that the copper city should go 1S of the copper itself, on the wooded peninsula. It will have the copper in the initial 9-tile cross; in addition, the BFC will claim two spice and two fish tiles. It will have a lot of ocean, too, granted--making it a natural for the Moai Statues. It might just make a good GP farm too. (By the way, I always liked having having off-shore fish, but now I just love 'em. The most recent patch makes the game generate more barb galleys, but those tiles are out of their reach.)

I think a 3rd city will need to be a priority, specifically to close off access to my northern back country. The tile 1N of the rice would do the trick, and would claim the gems and silk as well (though it would miss out on the dye, but you can't have everything).

As for the north, well, the desert makes thinks a little awkward. A food-poor city may be needed 1SE of the stone to claim it and the wine, though it will have an oasis and a couple of irrigated tiles post-bureaucracy. The other two cities I was thinking of up there would probably be (1) right on top of the copper--unfortunate, but the only way to claim both the crabs and fish; and (2) 1W of the pigs, to claim the silk as well and the whales with a later border expansion. However, I look forward to your alternative suggestions; it occurs to me that moving the stone and copper cities might provide for a better configuration.

Anyway, talk about settling the north is getting ahead of ourselves. The AI expands like crazy compared to a human, so if I want any land to my SE (acquired peacefully or through conquest) I'd better get moving.

So what's next, besides settling copper city?
  • Builds: Like I said, I was thinking of inserting a Warrior or two in the queue before the Settler pops out to provide escort services. ;) After that, I think another Worker would be in order, followed by a chopped/whipped barracks and Axemen. I anticipate the forests going toward units rather than wonders in this game, BTW.
  • Techs: I was thinking of going after Agriculture so I can farm the rice. That would help the city grow and provide fuel for whipping. Fishing will then be needed for the coastal copper city. After that, also to help support whipping, I was thinking of pursuing Pottery for Granaries, and to start on cottages; the economy is one of Boudica's biggest weak points, after all. The gold will help, as will the gems, but only for so long.
As always, I look forward to your thoughts and suggestions. The saved game file is below.
 

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I would tech Wheel>Fish>Agi>...? dunno but ironworking before writing prolly.

Blocking the North does not seem that crucial, Mali has better closer land right now and you seem likely to attack him soonish. The rice gem silk city is still an atractive site, but seems you need Iron for its jungles first.

For the North how about 2E of the Copper, clain fish,copper, pig, whale. A second city either 1 E or 1 N of the stone, but not for a long time. I dont think the land is good enough to warrant three cities.
 
I made a dotmap:



I agree with the strategy of attempting a block to the south with your 3rd city but I would try to snag the pigs+dyes. The danger here is of course having the pigs stolen by someone settling SE of them but that is not the most desirable spot to settle I think, especially if you get a quick border pop. At least it would halt expansion beyond this point for a time. An advantage is you can work a great tile - the pig and don't have to worry about IW to improve it (as of now at least). The city also has serious long term potential as cottage city/capital.

As for the north I would rather skip the wine as you can see than settle on top of the copper. The northernmost city is excellent but settling up there would kill your economy so that will have to be much later I suspect. The fish/gems spot to the SE is the only way to claim that fish and it looks like a likely candidate for 4th city along with early IW to work the gems and to get gallic warriors for an offense. With sailing you'll have all the expansions connected to the capital asap since they share the coast.
One or more of the AIs should be sniffing at your borders then so I don't think you need more cities at that point to start your first war.

It's an interesting situation, all the AIs you have met are techers. That means that there's a risk of some of them pulling ahead when you go to war. It would be best if you can keep the wars quick and decisive. That is always true of course but perhaps more so in this case given the neighbours.
 
My suggestions

1) Settle next city towards the east to block off the penninsula from the AIs. That gives you enough time to either settle north and build up an army for some Boudician Diplomacy :devil:

2) Next get a barracks and use combat I, shield warriors to protect from barbs until you get the copper hooked up. Archery can be delayed I think.

3) Agriculture and the wheel, then Pottery and start Spamming cottages in the capital. You said Boudica's limit is economy which can be easily addressed by fast cottaging. Extra production from those chopped forrest will certainly help!

4) Don't be all that over anxious to get Iron working. Either settle down the economy first or smash MM fast for his cities!

Looking foreward to the next segment!
 
Tough map...you've got 3 AI's with high base peacweights so they will automatically like each other (even Mansa and WK with different religions for a time), and the other AI is Zara Yaqob who is a true beast. But, of course, this doesn't stop the situation of war coming up eventually. My best bet would be to head for Lincoln, as Mansa's skirmishers could be a hassle to break through. Lincoln, on the other hand, has neither a UU that that comes early nor the Protective/Aggressive/Imperialistic traits.

I'm going to shadow this for maybe 100 turns, +/- 10 turns.

One thought that is nagging me is how The Oracle looks good on this map. Stonehenge isn't that valuable because you need to get a blocking city out in the jungle, which may put the Oracle at risk. On the other hand, it's perfectly possible to build the Oracle after settling 2 cities. I've done this on deity, so it should be doable on immortal. On top of that, you've got gold to accelerate research and you already have Mysticism and forests for chopping. Lastly, you have a bunch of techers and getting a big, fat tech like Metal Casting will help you greatly. Please consider this.

Lastly, if you've got a spare warrior, put him on the hill that is N, NE of the Oasis. That's a good fog-busting site for 1 unit.
 
Looks like a good dotmap Gliese, prioritizing the southern 4 dots. Start with the blocking pig-dye, then grab the copper-fish, gems-fish, rice-silk. Calender is surely a prime target, giving 3 happiness and 6 high commerce tiles.
Another placement option is the hill SE of the westernmost clam, north of where MMis . It's a good production city, with two foodsources and room to the east for another city claiming the fish north of the easter clam. If you don't manage a successful pre-education war, that will give you more leeway getting the universities required for Oxford. If you want that city though, it probably has to be your 3rd, as MM will probably head up to that foodrich piece early.

Besides IW being nessesary for the UU, you'll need it to clear away the jungle. I would probably consider sailing->math->calender after IW, since the AI tend not to trade them early because of the GH and the MoM, and the happiness, combined with some foodrich cities and plenty of health resources make for early high poulation cities and a good SE.
 
I get the feeling that fortune will favor the bold here. Settle the Pig-Dye and the Gem city. Beeline Catapults. Save Mansa for after you have Feudalism. (Vassal him!)
 
One thing no one has mentioned so far. See Gliese's dot-map: 7 cities, all coastal. Going for the Great Lighthouse might be a good idea. The copper city would be a good place to build it. It can take a few forests from the capital and build it pretty fast. Tech-wise you could go for Agri->Fishing->Sailing->Masonry. Granaries and cottages are great, but at first you'll work mostly resource & production tiles to get your cities up. After that, by all means, research Pottery, whip the granaries and start growing, as you'll have quite a big happy cap with CHA+Monuments+Gold (+Gems eventually).
 
Boudica is a warbeast, but is a little slow on the economy. I would settle the southern copper city first as priority one and get out some axes. If I were you I would take my time settling the land north of me and putting down a mixture of commercial and hammer cities, while at the same time using the axemen to choke mansa. You could research IW as well to see where the iron is and prevent him from hooking up any metals. That way you can go hit him later with your axes or gallic warriors and he'll only have his skirmishers to defend. (choke off horses too). My 2 cents. Oh, and Gliese's dotmap looks great.
 
Welcome back.

I was thinking that the copper city should go 1S of the copper itself, on the wooded peninsula. It will have the copper in the initial 9-tile cross; in addition, the BFC will claim two spice and two fish tiles. It will have a lot of ocean, too, granted--making it a natural for the Moai Statues. It might just make a good GP farm too.

That city site only claims one of the two fish. The southernmost fish needs a city 1SW of the gems, which is another good spot, and another good Maoi candidate.

I'd consider moving your proposed copper city to be 1W of the copper, but either site is ok, just don't expect two fish.
 
On second thought, if you could get the Great Lighthouse, the Oracle AND the Colossus it would be really cool. :D You have lots of useless tiles for the northern three cities, simply working water tiles could be the way to go. Not to mention that you could build some forges for two more happiness. Boudica the wonder-spammer, heh.
 
I'd really want to meet someone like Shaka now, because there's too many peaceful leaders around. AI-AI war is better than AI-AI tradefest.
 
If I may say something I would like to see HOW to get Oracle and Colossus and Great Lighthouse? Just HOW? At this difficulty with Boudica that is:)
 
I can't really tell from the map: how are the hills? Will Guerilla give a movement advantage when the time comes?
 
Hooray Sisiutil's back! I'll add my vote to settling east first to box off the north for later settling. After that settle the copper city, get to iron working and start cranking out those Gaelic Warriors for an attack on MM.
 
Welcome back. I hope this game is as much of a challenge as the unfinished one. Yes, that's a dig. :mischief:

Agg warriors would be fine until your capital's culture encompassed the copper. You could build a monument to get it faster, since you need the monument later anyway.

You should research agriculture next to grow your city. I'd research Agr-> IW->Wheel and settle NE of the gems if you want a sword war, or Agr->Wheel->IW and settle pigs/dyes if not. Don't attack only with swords if you wait to settle a third city, or if the second city doesn't have good production.
 
And yes, you can see at lower left that I have copper very close by, so close that if we had moved the Settler one tile in that direction it would be in the capital's fat cross. As things stand, I'll have to found a city down there.

I'm not sure you really need to found a copper city since Bibracte's borders will expand in 2125 BC and claim the tile. That should be early enough to get the copper hooked up for barb defense purposes (although maybe not at Immortal:hmm:). But it's a moot point anyway since there really aren't any better sites to settle. :(

Any cities to the east will be choked by jungle for quite a while and don't really have enough food to be great cities even when the jungle is cleared. Distance maintenance for the northern cities would really kill the research boost you were expecting from the gold (which is about the only thing you have going for you at this point). So as mediocre as it is the copper city is your best option.

One other advantage of the founding the copper city next is that you can get a fishing boat out early to explore that landmass to the SW. It may turn out to be nothing much, but you're hard pressed for any usable land at this point. It might even be a good idea to sneak in a workboat build before the monument so you can scout out the landmass before any chance of barb galleys showing up. That would mean researching Fishing next. You can afford to delay the Wheel and Agr. since your one and only worker will be busy mining the copper.

Longer term I think you're going to have to take someone out early if you're going to have enough land to compete. And that probably means Mansa, even though you'd like to keep him as a trading partner. :cry:
 
Just for reference: Barbs enter borders at around 1900 BC and onwards on Immortal on normal speed. The jungle and inland position of Bibracte suggests it will not be delayed long after this date.
 
If I may say something I would like to see HOW to get Oracle and Colossus and Great Lighthouse? Just HOW? At this difficulty with Boudica that is:)

The Great Lighthouse should be easy to get. I don't think the AIs will prioritize it on this map. The Oracle might be a problem though, but if he does get the Oracle, the Colossus should be ok. He'd just have to delay trading Metal Casting for a while to make sure. The idea is not to settle the northern cities until later as they'd put too much of a strain on the economy. Three eastern cities + copper city could be too much anyway, I don't know.

Agg warriors would be fine until your capital's culture encompassed the copper. You could build a monument to get it faster, since you need the monument later anyway.

You should research agriculture next to grow your city. I'd research Agr-> IW->Wheel and settle NE of the gems if you want a sword war, or Agr->Wheel->IW and settle pigs/dyes if not. Don't attack only with swords if you wait to settle a third city, or if the second city doesn't have good production.

I'd still get the copper city. It will have decent production and its maintenance won't be a lot. But good point about the Wheel, I forgot about it. Drat... A GLH + Oracle+Metal Casting combo would need: Agri->Wheel->Fishing->Sailing->Masonry->Meditation->Priesthood->Pottery. We'll need to tech as fast as possible to get all those. Maybe not even switch to Slavery, and not chop too much in order to keep the forests for the Oracle.
 
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