ALC Game 30: Germany/Bismarck

[TheMeInTeam]

@plasmacannon

Spoiler :

going full isolation in semi-isolation situation is in my experience better. At least you don't compete for land and he won't trade useful techs anyway

Spoiler :

I waited until the 1500's AD to start killing him, instead settling 7 cities peacefully and getting mids/gwall/tgl/parthenon/sistine/etc. He founded buddhism in the opening turns; that's the exact moment I realized I could easily get him to friendly for trades.

Also, gwall + rep = settled great spy or so. I used that to steal civil service and engineering on top of some tech trades. Combined with foreign trade routes and the wonder spam this helped early tech rate a lot.

Rushing a protective civ that's easy to please when you are IND and can wonderspam? No thanks.

 

[Benginal]

Round 0: Move the Scout

Spoiler :

In this game, my scouting thoughts were exactly echoed by the most of yours. We would like to be able to settle in place and not waste a turn moving into forest. We can settle in place if there is food on either of those grassland squares to the west. Failing that we can move 1 east and settle on the plains hill. Therefore our decision to settle in place or settle 1 east can be made easily if we know that food can be found in either of those grassland squares to the west. Can we find out what's over there? Yes we can.

Well we've hit the mother-load. This capital is going to be beyond excellent. It has the ability to function in any capacity we want it to. There's lots of things we can do with it, even in the early game.

1. We can use it as an early worker/settler pump and claim as much land as we can.
2. We can use it as a near perfect Obsolete style *Home* and build wonders and run specialists.
3. We can chop out an early army of whatever strategic resource we get and go take another capital or two.

My vote is for number 1, but I'll yield if a majority of you say otherwise.

Techs can also be debated. Going along with my number 1 city specialization I'd say Agriculture -> Animal Husbandry -> Bronze Working. If we want wonders we will have to look elsewhere: Mysticism, Priesthood, Masonry.

Obviously, our decision will be based on whats around - nearby neighbors, faraway neighbors, no neighbors, great city sites, crappy city sites. I plan to keep the first turnset short, so that we can better know what to do with this awesome city.

If there's no opposition to settling in place I'll play the first turnset soon. If there is opposition I'd be super interested in hearing it, if only for curiosity's sake.

 

[Hodory]

3 different resources for food, fresh water, and lots of nearby forests make settling in place a no brainer for me. Being an expansive leader, health is pretty much a non issue at this point.

I like option #1 initially. With the bonus build time to granaries and so much forests, it will be much easier to chop and whip settlers and maybe even military units, if an early rush is desired depending on the map layout and location of AIs.

How about going for Animal Husbandry initially for the cows and pigs and then Bronze Working.

 

[Trystero]

How about going for Animal Husbandry initially for the cows and pigs and then Bronze Working.

If no farmable resources were available, maybe. But with corn in the BFC you might as well get the pre-req for the discount on AH.

And, yeah, with all that food and trees no reason not to SIP.

 

[madscientist]

I say AH/AGR/BW then decide what to do depending on the neighbors. If all seams reasonably quiet I vote to get a settler out for a second city, then designate Berlin as a wonderspammer and expand by using the #2 city.

 

[BigTime]

Agriculture first, definitely. Cheaper AH and while teching AH worker can improve farm. Berlin looks perfect for wonderspam with all those hills and industrious, as well as the ability to work a lot of the hills with the good food you have.

To sum up: AG/AH/BW Worker improves corn-pigs-cow-then go from there.

 

[Hodory]

If no farmable resources were available, maybe. But with corn in the BFC you might as well get the pre-req for the discount on AH.

And, yeah, with all that food and trees no reason not to SIP.

Thanks for clarifying that. Yes, absolutely AGR first for the discount.

I say AH/AGR/BW then decide what to do depending on the neighbors. If all seams reasonably quiet I vote to get a settler out for a second city, then designate Berlin as a wonderspammer and expand by using the #2 city.

That would be really ideal for this ALC. By the way, I love your RP series. I don't think I posted anything, but I've been playing quiet shadow games on the side last week.

 

[Benginal]

Round 1: 4000 BC to 2520 BC (37 turns)

Spoiler :

The round began on a good note. I settled in place and founded a pretty decent capital.

We've got two stellar food resources, five grassland hills, one plains hill, and a food/hammer hybrid. This capital has the potential to be very good and I'm pleased with the decision to settle in place.

Picking a worker as a first build seemed like an easy decision to make, so I made it. Notice the expansive trait in action.

That's a pretty solid savings right there. Unfortunately, I found myself maybe getting the worker out too quickly for his own good. I had planned to research Agriculture and then Animal Husbandry. This would make AH cheaper and save us some beakers in a very commerce poor start. However, you'll notice that the worker would be finished the farm 6 turns after he was finished. After Agriculture finished, we'd be waiting 11 (I think) turns for AH to come in. This meant that our worker would have three turns of idleness. I made the decision to go for AH first so that our worker would never be idle. I'm not sure if this was the right move, but it made sense at the time.

Very soon in to the game, turn 4, I met Charlemagne.

He's not quite as close as Mao was last game, but it's still a little silly. What is with the RNG giving me super nearby protective leaders. It's driving me nuts.

This following screenshot shows two things.

1. My scouting pattern was pretty straightforward. I went north to the silks, west to the edge of the Holy Roman Empire, north to the coast, and then east along the shoreline.
2. Charlemage founded and the adopted Buddhism. Not really surprising, but something worth noting.

After the worker in the capital finished I built several warriors while growing to size 5. This might have been a mistake as we will see shortly.

The worker headed over to the pigs, bacon is tasty.

The worker would get there right as Animal Husbandry was getting in, perfect.

After AH came Agriculture, which would let us improve the corn.

We also have horses! Given this development, I decided to double back and take a closer look at Charlemagne's capital.

. This is really annoying. A rush is now going to be a pain to execute if we decide to try.

Meanwhile my worker micro was making me dizzy.

Cows were up next, steaks are also tasty.

After Agriculture was done, I got back to the plan and researched Bronze Working next.

This is a no-brainer tech in this case. We have lots of trees to chop and lots of excess food to whip.

And here I made my second questionable decision of the round.

Agriculture was in, so I could have gone over and started on the corn. But I was fast approaching my happy cap and I decided the extra hammers and commerce (just one coin, but that's 10% of my research) would be more useful to me.

Here's a random shot of my capital getting big pretty quickly.

This is what I was not looking forward to. It was pretty much unavoidable I think.

But even so, it's times like these I wish I was India.

I usually like to go with a second worker before my settler, but in this case, my worker is getting bored and building workers is so easy! It took only three turns to build a worker and if he did get finished he'd just be sitting around wait for a settler.

So that's what I decided to build. There was some nice land to the west that hopefully we could settle and build a bunch of cottages on.

Apparently, Charlemagne had the same idea. Sigh.

Alright, here's our capital being awesome and building workers at a pretty nice clip.

I had the settler move towards the northwest.

I haven't settled yet, but I like this city number 2 option. It will be able to work the corn in the capital and two green hills. It also has a lot of flat grassland so I will probably be cottaging it up, although I'm not particular.

Bronze Working is in, and this is where I stopped the round. There is copper to the northwest, but there's not a lot of good city sites.

And it looks like we are pretty alone.

Both of us having exactly the same amount of espionage points towards each other tells us this.

So we have some decisions ahead.

1. Given that Charly founded a religion it should be pretty easy to get him to Friendly at which point these is no WFYABTA limit.
2. However, he does seem to have claimed some of the best land on our continent, so maybe a short war just to take Prague is in order. I'll ask some of our resident diplo gods how easily we can repair relations from a short war like that.
3. It seems like the capital is going to be best used a wonder-factory again. There's not much else to build to be honest. The continent will fill up quickly enough and there's nobody to have a big fight with yet.
4. On the plus side, we have nearly all the health resources to go along with our healthy traits. So that + Monarchy should give us some pretty large cities early on in the game.
5. A Panzer war is not out of the question. They come late enough that transports and destroyers will have us moving around the globe pretty easily.
6. It's also going to be imperative to get a boat out ASAP to verify that we are indeed isolated and I'm not pulling another Zara ALC.

I'm interested in all of your comments and thoughts and await them with anticipation.

 

[Trystero]

Thanks for clarifying that. Yes, absolutely AGR first for the discount.

Unless of course you are Expansive and will get the worker out and the corn improved before you finish AH and therefore have no other tiles to improve and nothing for your worker to do.

Benginal: Given that Charlemagne has already founded a religion and is Protective, I would be inclined to expand peacefully and get him to Friendly as a potential trading partner. On the other hand, you are right that Prague is sitting on the best land available. I'm not sure how easy it would be to get him back to Friendly after a war. Maybe you should settle what cities you can while getting a WB out to see if there are other trading partners nearby before you decide how to proceed.

 

[i_imperator]

Choke Him, Dow and take that city near the horses, he'll try and resttle it if you raze it, wasting hammers on settlers rather than millatery, and this will get charlie to move his forces around. I actually choked Mao in my shadow of the De Gaul ALC and it worked pretty well. I was eventually able to kill Mao. I'd send a chariot or two up to that copper.

 

[CivSetä]

Wasn't agr just a waste of time (and beakers)? Pigs and cows is definitely enough to grow!
Could you have settled that nice spot in time if BW was in 10 turns earlier?

 

[Mec AntiKythera]

SIP? good! techs? good. build order? good? Maybe a settler instead of a second warrior would have been better, looking back, but a warrior isn't a crazy choice given the options.

Nice capital, with all that food it looks like you will be hosting the barbecue this week. It certainly won't be in Aachen, protective capital and holy city on a hill, nuts, tough nuts. You have horses, but Magnie will grab that copper soon, and probably the second corral.

In my mind the question was if you should play nice and trade techs with the only other kid in the sandbox (since you are convinced you can get him Friendly) and set out to find more land elsewhere, or if you should generously offer your powers of leadership to the whole island immediately. Then you come up with a third option, borrowing some toys from the pseudo-Roman and then letting him clean up after you, interesting idea (take Prague and then make peace).

That marble would be nice though, nothing like building wonders in the blink of an eye, and maybe cashing in on some failure gold as well. But still, he's got the nuts over there, the tough nuts. How many chariots would you need for Aachen? 3 per archer? 4? Or you could spam settlers like there's no tomorrow and fill that island up, you do have some chop ready trees. Settle City 2, plus 3W of pig (moving Crap 1W later), and This Land Sucks for the 3 city embrace of death? Remember, some of those coastal sites may have as yet unseen seafood to make them more bearable, we can always hope for that.

So, rush settlers, rush to war, or find the middle ground? And don't forget the boat, you may be able to hop to the next rock over.

Nice comparison screenies showing the use of the Expansive trait by the way, good documentation, keep it up.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Wasn't agr just a waste of time (and beakers)? Pigs and cows is definitely enough to grow!
Could you have settled that nice spot in time if BW was in 10 turns earlier?

Waste of time?

A tile that is the equivalent of of a chop every 6-7 turns (without using worker turns) while building workers and settlers, plus a tech cost reduction on AH is a waste of time?

 

[lymond]

^^^^He must be on the Atkins diet. No carbs for him....

 

[CivSetä]

Waste of time?

A tile that is the equivalent of of a chop every 6-7 turns (without using worker turns) while building workers and settlers, plus a tech cost reduction on AH is a waste of time?

1) AH was researched BEFORE AGR, so no discount!
2) Two other food tiles are enough to grow up to happy cap, then you want to work mines (especially because you are expansive and excess food won't get the bonus for building workers).
3) BW in earlier means 2 extra chops in time needed to research agr

IMHO getting agr in between AH and BW was bad move in this particular case.

 

[z0wb13]

yeah, i'm going to say slow play it. however, the chances of getting charlie to friendly is pretty low unless you are willing to switch into vassalage.

i'd go for the "keep" city first, to block him. then chop/whip another settler for "city 2" and move "shrug" 1NW. and chop the forests on "clam" before you settle it.

i think the big decision you need to make is whether you go for pyramids or heredity rule. it's a toss up, but charlemange is a pacifist, meaning he won't declare war at pleased. if you can share a religion (highly likely with a little luck), you shouldn't have to worry too much, so i'd go with 'mids and rep.

there isn't a lot of land available, so civil service should be a priority. but don't rush it, founding confucism could actually work against you.

wrt TMiT's post, i'm not convinced that the great light house is worth it, but the great wall might be. however, since you are competing against an imperialistic leader, i would prioritize settlers over wonders.

edit: oops!

"keep" is already taken. nevermind my city placement advice.

actually, now i don't know what to do. i know what i'd do, and that's wage an ill advised war. research horse archers and try to choke charlie. take "keep" AFTER it grows to size 2. back him into a corner, and don't expect to trade any techs optics. with enough wonders, you might be able to keep up with bulbs???!?!?!?!? hopefully.

the problem is that he can out REX you. land=power;p

 

[TheMeInTeam]

yeah, i'm going to say slow play it. however, the chances of getting charlie to friendly is pretty low unless you are willing to switch into vassalage.

+4 fair trade
+2 OB
+1 years peace
+2 shared religion (instant, grows over time)
+1-2 resource supply (optional)

If you make a passing effort at it, you can get him to friendly by the early ADs; religion accrues to well over +6 for him.

the problem is that he can out REX you. land=power;p

No he can't. Maybe on deity.

1) AH was researched BEFORE AGR, so no discount!

AGR first was the best play probably.

Working mines < working a 5f tile by a significant margin, esp given that you're building more than just workers.

 

[Mec AntiKythera]

So you advocate buttering him up and trading rolls for veggies at present and stealing his stuffing later?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

So you advocate buttering him up and trading rolls for veggies at present and stealing his stuffing later?

I advocate spamming cities to block, milking him for trade routes + later tech trades, and finally killing him at convenience later.

If you want to rush him it's fine but rushing PRO can easily hang an L on you if the RNG feels sassy.

 

[barbertje]

I advocate spamming cities to block, milking him for trade routes + later tech trades, and finally killing him at convenience later.

I think trying to block charlie is hopeless here, you need at least 3 cities, and none of them has food. This continent is really too small for 2 civs. You can also build only 3 or 4 cities and get really early catapults.
I'd go for chariots here, since there is such great production in both cities.