ALC Game 30: Germany/Bismarck

I think trying to block charlie is hopeless here, you need at least 3 cities, and none of them has food. This continent is really too small for 2 civs. You can also build only 3 or 4 cities and get really early catapults.
I'd go for chariots here, since there is such great production in both cities.

4 city cats is fine too, but I did get 7 cities against him w/o war; although my spoiler thread on this game was about a technical issue, I included a save where the HRE vs German city names are retained clearly :).
 
My game didn't go so well.
Spoiler :

I got stuck defending my continent for most of the game.
Shaka vassaled Zara and Mansa, and they were at war with me from Medieval Age to Modern Age.
Having me surrounded my 15-20 frigates + Ship of the lines, then Destroyers. I lost all of my seafood, the health bonuses from it, the population I couldn't afford to have anymore, and any Gold/Specialists I had.
He dropped SoDs of Knights+Trebs, Calvary+Cannons+Riflemen on my continent. I just saw his Infantry late last night.
I am building my first Battleships at this point.

Wang Kon has already built Apollo, and about 4-5 spaceship parts.
I sent missionaries and Corps over to Stalin hoping I could flip him to my Religion.
I ran pasifism for quite awhile and got like 5 GEs this game. They were so frequent, I had to switch to others, like Spys and Merchants.
Short of Nuking Shaka and Wang Kon both, Wang Kon should launch.

It seemed the AIs were acting as one team. Shaka would force me to build alot of units, while Wang Kon could tech to victory.

I wasn't offensive as much as I have seen others do in other games. I'm sure that was part of it.
Having 3 AIs (1 and his 2 vassals) send their ships over to me to blockade my entire continent, reminds me of why I don't like vassals.
 
Ah, it may be possible to block him, but you would have to make it a priority.

The kind of priority where you still get great wall and pyramids while blocking him to 5 cities :p? My micro isn't even that good, someone who planned it out could have done even better.
 
You shouldn't post discoveries based on shadow games, until the thread has
moved that far.

Spoiler :


I got stuck defending my continent for most of the game.
Shaka vassaled Zara and Mansa, and they were at war with me from Medieval Age to Modern Age.
 
Plan for Round 2

I'm glad to see this game producing some interesting discussion. I'd be grateful if those of you who do play ahead could keep your stuff in spoilers so that I don't get any hints. And if you do forget, try to make sure I find out something more welcome than Shaka's on the map, :(.

Anyway, the set-up as it is now (I'm assuming semi-isolation) presents two possibilities. We can rush Charlemagne, take his cities, and be alone for the first 4000 years or we can try to get as much land as we can and be friends with him. I think I'm going to agree with The on this one and try to get Charlemagne to Friendly where we can trade techs with him and hopefully not fall too far behind.

Rushing certainly has some benefits, but as I see it the benefits are getting the Buddhist holy city (which won't be that great since we won't have a prophet or many cities to spread it to), and two average cities. It's possible, even probable, that Aachen has another fish, but I'm not too jealous of him for having that city. The middle city was annoying to miss, but we can deal with not having it for the time being. I think being able to share tech duty, getting double trade route income, and not having to make at least a dozen, and probably more, early troops will make up for the cities we could have had. If you have a really strong reason to rush that you think I missed I'll listen to your argument and think about it, but my mind's pretty made up.

Given that we're not going to rush it becomes imperative that we get some cities. The island is not nicely designed in the sense that we can't just plant one city that will block another 3 or 4 for us. So we're going to have to be super aggressive in settling. Which given our awesome capital shouldn't be too hard. Here's what I'm thinking in terms of city sites.



City 1 seems like an obvious first choice. It's nearby our capital which will keep distance-from-palace maintenance down. It's already got a corn improved and it claims some riverside grassland tiles which are turning out to be the best tiles in the area.

After that I like BLOCKER (2), which I'm hoping has Iron. There is going to be a slight cultural gap through which Charlemagne can sneak, but hopefully he goes for site GREEDY. GREEDY is there kind of as a joke, there's no way we can get it, I don't think. But if I'm feeling greedy, I might try. Next I want to settle DECENT CITY. This is where we can quickly chop out the Great Lighthouse, which is going to be important to keep to our economy afloat since it looks like we have zero commerce tiles pre-calender. Then I'll send one down south to either of the DEPENDS ON FISH sites, depending on where fish is. If we get TGL I'll quickly backfill as many coastal cities as I can get in there.

If you have any comments on city sites. Including, but not limited to, settling order, settling placement (3 could be 1E which would then allow another city on the plains hill north of 1, etc), or anything else, let me know.

I plan to get these settlers out as quickly as I can by chopping, whipping, and using the excellent food tiles in the capital. I also want a few wonders. There's enough chop-able forests in the capital to let us have a little fun. I'm planning on cottaging this empire up and growing on warriors, so I think I'll skip the pyramids (disagree now if you want). But I'd love to get both the Great Wall for some early tech stealing from Charlemagne and TGL for trade routes on our coastal cities.

In the longer term my wonder goal is to also try and get The Colossus. I'll try and bulb Metal Casting from the Oracle, but I'm not confident I'll be able to get it. Super long term is to try and make this land good using Sushi and Mining Inc. Anyway, back to task:



The upcoming tech order will go. Mysticism (monuments) --> Masonry (Great Wall + TGL) --> Fishing --> Sailing --> The Wheel --> Pottery. I'll probably stop the round before then, but I think that's a good plan. We'll let Charlemagne get writing for open borders.

So the immediate plan is to
1. Revolt to Slavery
2. Build/chop/whip settlers, workers (who will pretty much all chop), and wonders.

Barb duty is already pretty much covered and hopefully we'll have the Wall soon.
 
Round 2: 2520 BC to 925 BC (41 turns)

Spoiler :


Well readers, this round was an interesting and very fun one to play. I made a couple of serious mistakes and then had fun trying to get out of them. A coach I had a long time ago once said that watching people do something wrong was often as helpful, if not more helpful, than watching people do something correctly. So I'll be doing my best to teach by example. Examples of what not to do that is. Then I'll try to show some ways of getting out of sticky early situations.

You'll remember that last round finished with a settler on a path to his planned city site. Units can move during revolution but things can't be built or researched. So a great time for the first revolt is while the first settler is moving. So that's what I did.



Not only was Slavery the only thing to revolt to, but it's also very useful. Especially with a capital that had as much food as this one.

Next turn I was able to settle my city as planned.



It was able to work the corn and did so. I'm a fan of placing a second city in such a way that it can work a tile that's already been improved by the capital. Sometimes it's better to go for a far off location to block land or claim some good resources. But if the capital has some food it can share, which it often does, I put a second city so that it can use it.

I had my workers on full chop duty. I was worried about Charlemagne taking all of my city sites, crappy as they might be, so I did my best to produce some settlers.



You can also see that I'm researching Mysticism. I wanted this tech for the ability to build monuments and help me set up some cultural blockage, but also since it would lessen the expense of Masonry which I needed for The Great Wall and The Great Lighthouse.

I was still worried about land, so I whipped in this settler.



When whipping try to do so for two-pop. You get the same amount of whip anger regardless of how many population points you whip away. So more is generally better. I would put the overflow into one last warrior and then start on a worker.

Alright. So here's a look at the situation now.



Both of my cities finished their settler at the same time. I sent them both north with the intention of making some really rash decisions.



My logic at the time was this: I knew that getting my hands on the copper was going to be hard. But the city would still be able to work deer and clams which would allow me to run 3 specialists at size 5. And if I get the copper that would be awesome too. I was feeling more confident about getting all the cities I wanted at this point so I went ahead and settled there. Unfortunately I forgot about maintenance costs.



Yeah, check out that tech slider. For those of you who aren't mathematically inclined. This meant that when I turned the slider down I'd be getting about 0 gpt, give or take a little. So what do we do when we have no money in the early game? The classic strategy is to build wonders for failure gold. The way this works is that for every hammer you have invested in a wonder earns 1 gold if that wonder is built by somebody else. This is a great strategy and one I decided I would employ, especially since I was Industrious and our "wonder" hammers get even better returns on fail gold.

Here's the final view of the damage. Look at that gold per turn, ouch.



Needless to say I did NOT settle that city. The extra maintenance would kill me. It actually probably would have, literally. You'll also notice that I had another settler over on the east that the capital had finished. I had two settlers just sitting waiting for the economy to recover, which would hopefully happen before Charlemagne started settling the land.

Here's the second piece of advice. It's very easy to overlook unit maintenance. Army maintenance is usually remembered and people know about the disbanding troops strategy, etc. But people often forget about workers & settlers outside of cultural borders maintenance. And when you're only getting 1 gpt at 0% science, every coin counts.

I decided that I'd leave the settlers, wait for the fail gold, and just survive on nothing for the time being, since I didn't think it was worth the possibility of Charlemagne taking my land. The workers quickly finished up their pre-chopping and then got back in the borders.

Well the capital finished Stonehenge up to one turn and then started on the wonder that I was actually going to keep.



I was almost certain that I wasn't going to be getting it. My painfully slow teching had made the starting date of this wonder really late. (Also, it was just coincidence that I got Masonry right as Stonehenge got within one turn). But I had some chops and was hopeful that it might be possible. Also, I really needed somebody to get Stonehenge so I could get my failure gold, as is obvious by the time it will take me to research fishing.

And there we go.



I'm at 0 gpt at 0% research. All of my commerce was being spent supporting my empire. I should have been doing this earlier, but I wasn't because I forgot (very poor play on my part). What I should have been doing was microing tiles to get every last gold I could. Growth, hammers, workers, and settlers were no longer important, it was gold that mattered.



Then I noticed the silks, and that there were FORESTS on them. The rookie mistake here is that with silk and riverside-ness those tiles get TWO commerce, not one. So I quickly chopped those forests so that I could work the extra commerce.

In the meantime, money-suck city popped its borders and didn't claim the copper. It wasn't even close.



On the plus side, Charlemage had roaded to that city. So as soon as he got writing I'd have a foreign trade route. This means that I should also get Buddhism super quickly and start getting our relations up.

This whole roads thing is a nice segue into another source of gold that unfortunately I couldn't take advantage of. Domestic trade routes give each city 1 gold. But since I didn't have the wheel I was unable to get those trade routes and missed out on a lot of gold as a result. This round would have gone a lot better had I put the wheel first, before mysticism. It also would have given my workers something more useful to do. I have six at this point (they're so cheap :eek:).



After Hamburg finished it's worker I started on Stonehenge again. This would give me some more fail gold since hopefully the AI would finish it soon. It was actually getting really annoying now. It was already turn 72 and still no Stonehenge, wth. I know Shaka and Zara are on this map, but geez, what are the rests of the AIs doing. You're killing me here. (Maybe they're on to me).

Anyway, these awful builder AIs allowed me to get my first wonder.



This was great. Not for barb defense, since it was already impossible for barbs to spawn. I only ever saw one barb warrior the whole round. No, the reason it's going to be excellent is that it will serve as my early "trading" power with Charlemagne. I'll send the Great Spy over to the HRE and then get a bunch of espionage points which I can use to steal techs and get myself back in this game.

And the damn AIs were killing me, so I went ahead and did it.



I had an interesting decision to make on deciding where to finish it. I could have built it in Stonehenge for the extra GP points since Berlin would likely end up as my SSE/WE city. But I decided on Hamburg for two reasons. One, I wanted that great spy and didn't want to pollute the Berlin Great Person pool with a Prophet. Two, this would guarantee that Hamburg would get those excellent riverside grassland tiles from Charlemagne that his city currently had control over.

And there it is:



110 GOLD!!!!!!! Alright, we're back in business. This is enough gold to get me through Fishing and Sailing and then pop! goes the Great Lighthouse and we're off, hopefully ... I stopped the round at this point.

The island currently looks like this



I have another settler on the way to the southern fish site just in case Charlemagne tries to pull a fast one. You can also see that I'm building the Pyramids. I'm not sure if I'm going to get them, but I'll at least try, I think. I've got nothing else to build at the moment anyway.

Here's a view of my cities:







And the northern part of the Empire getting ready to chop out a quick Great Lighthouse.



And the absolutely hilarious tech screen goes as follows:



So the main thing to take out of this round is this: if there's no good commerce tiles in your early empire make sure you get the wheel for trade routes, keep unnecessary units out of your borders, and build wonders for fail gold.

Any questions, comments, or thoughts on how I should proceed are very welcome!

 
There are some threads that are more oriented towards watching one player play a game and commenting on that particular player's game. Those include the ALC series, Mad's RPC series, DR Kossin (currently out of commission), and assorted others.

Then there are threads that are meant specifically for lots of players to play the same start like the Nobles Club, Immortal University, Monarch Student etc. So if you like shadow games check out some of those very fun threads.
 
well that was pretty hard landing... I too occasionally did. I think your plan with fail gold was solid.

Just one...well remark... did you ask yourself where you actually want to build the GLH? it's already 900BC and I don't see city capable of doing such task.

btw you should check for ToA if it's up. Could be great fail gold too. In some games I got 600g from it...but that was with marble (but no industrious leader)
 
Just one...well remark... did you ask yourself where you actually want to build the GLH? it's already 900BC and I don't see city capable of doing such task.

Munich is coastal. Although I think Benigal is proposing to build the GLH in a city he hasn't yet founded.

All your cities are on rivers that connect to the coast (or the coast itself for Munich). If I'm not mistaken, researching Sailing will instantly connect your cities via trade routes, saving you the trouble of building roads. (Edit: yes, I checked this in WB. You'll get trade routes with Charlemagne's cities with Sailing)
 
I love the tricks with the wonders here. And I love the fact that you did get the greed city. It is a good site but you will need a lot of culture to get some stuff going. Maybe Maoi statues wouldn't be a bad choice. That should be enough to get the copper back since it is in the third ring of Charlies capital.
 
I'm not so sre about the failure gold. If you had stone it would have been probably worth it but given that hammers>>commerce early game I think you would have been better off getting the monument culture going earlier and spending more hammers on workers+settlers etc to get your economy going...
 
@bobby: How do you propose to spend hammers to get the economy going? He can't build wealth or research, nor libraries or courthouses. Settlers and workers are a drain, first through unit upkeep then through city maintenance.

I think you overdid it with greedy. You could have just left the settler there until you see an approaching HRE settler, especially since the city had nothing in its inner ring, I think if you REX you need to make sure that you get some commerce sources to at least get to writing before the crash so you can build libraries and run scientists...
 
Just one...well remark... did you ask yourself where you actually want to build the GLH? it's already 900BC and I don't see city capable of doing such task.

He's pre-chopped for it up on the NE coast where the settler is hanging out, the chops will power the build.

Interesting developments in this round. Successful land grab leading to economic crisis. Wait, that theme sounds familiar, where have I seen that before? [note to self: stop reading the newspaper]

I see that civics are costing you 3/turn. On a total budget of 15 that's worth taking a look at. Are you using slavery at the moment? I know it's useful and you have a high food capital, but if everything else fails it's a thought. Good point about unit costs, I have never really considered the costs of workers and settlers outside of the cultural borders. I am amazed that you didn't build a even single cottage facing that economic situation. I guess you saw more potential in the failure gold route.

What is the medium-term strategy? Keep the HRE around for trade purposes or take it out as early as possible? It seems that your island is isolated even if your start isn't. Although, there is still a very small chance that you may be able to cross the ocean within cultural borders.
 
Unit upkeep is higher for units outside your borders. Something to consider when placing warriors for spawnbusting. Is the gpt you're spending on it worth it? One warrior on the forested plains hill would've done just fine if you'd moved your other warriors just inside your borders. Considering you share a small continent with an PRO AI that started with archery, I wouldn't expect barb to be a problem whatever you do.

Even worse is when you're not settling cities because you can't afford them while you have settlers sitting there costing 1gpt each.

Founding Munich was a terrible idea. If you take the bronze he'll produce archers, he's PRO, net gain is very small. Because of culture mechanics, you might actually take it, but even that isn't a sure thing. If he gets a GP, that city's useles until you take Aachen.
 
I am amazed that you didn't build a even single cottage facing that economic situation. I guess you saw more potential in the failure gold route.

The problem is he doesn't have Pottery yet, or even it's pre-req The Wheel.

I agree that grabbing Greedy for the copper was probably a bad move, certainly in the short-term, if you are going to play peaceful (and as JammerUno pointed out, dubious even if you were going to war, since Charly is Protective). It would have been better to research Iron Working rather than grab a city that poorly placed (diplomacy and distance-wise). It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
 
Just one...well remark... did you ask yourself where you actually want to build the GLH? it's already 900BC and I don't see city capable of doing such task.

As Trystero and Mec correctly answered, the plan is to build it in my fourth city that has all the forests pre-chopped. I'll be able to work the horses and grassland hill right away and chop five forests which I think, given the incredibly slow wonder pace, should get us the Great Lighthouse in time.

btw you should check for ToA if it's up. Could be great fail gold too. In some games I got 600g from it...but that was with marble (but no industrious leader)

Excellent idea. The marble wonders do seem to have very high fail gold costs. And as the land is filling up and I'm not planning a war, building multiple versions of wonders for fail gold will be very useful.

I love the tricks with the wonders here. And I love the fact that you did get the greed city. It is a good site but you will need a lot of culture to get some stuff going. Maybe Maoi statues wouldn't be a bad choice. That should be enough to get the copper back since it is in the third ring of Charlies capital.

I think Moai is actually a decent idea here. I'll probably build it for fail gold other places first, but that city will be working mostly coast. And If I get the the Colossus, it'll be working only coast except for the copper (hopefully) and the deer, which I might actually give to the other city.

I think you overdid it with greedy. You could have just left the settler there until you see an approaching HRE settler, especially since the city had nothing in its inner ring, I think if you REX you need to make sure that you get some commerce sources to at least get to writing before the crash so you can build libraries and run scientists...

I definitely overdid it. I had nothing to pay for it, as I discovered. Good techs to have are the wheel, at the very least, and then either writing or pottery. Lesson learned.

I see that civics are costing you 3/turn. On a total budget of 15 that's worth taking a look at. Are you using slavery at the moment? I know it's useful and you have a high food capital, but if everything else fails it's a thought.

This is one of those gems I never would have thought of even though I was trying to think of all the little tricks I'd picked up to keep the economy alive. I was whipping a little bit, but probably not enough to merit staying in slavery. And a turn of anarchy wouldn't have been that expensive since I wasn't really teching anything and the wonders probably would have remain un-built.

What is the medium-term strategy? Keep the HRE around for trade purposes or take it out as early as possible? It seems that your island is isolated even if your start isn't. Although, there is still a very small chance that you may be able to cross the ocean within cultural borders.

I'll write a more detailed post later. But the plan is to get the Great Lighthouse, the Colossus, and as many other wonders as we can while filling up the island with a bunch of coastal cities, working some cottages, and getting Charlemagne to pleased.

Unit upkeep is higher for units outside your borders. Something to consider when placing warriors for spawnbusting. Is the gpt you're spending on it worth it? One warrior on the forested plains hill would've done just fine if you'd moved your other warriors just inside your borders. Considering you share a small continent with an PRO AI that started with archery, I wouldn't expect barb to be a problem whatever you do.

Yeah, I'm not sure why I left the warriors out there since my settlers were fogbusting for me, :lol:.

Founding Munich was a terrible idea. If you take the bronze he'll produce archers, he's PRO, net gain is very small. Because of culture mechanics, you might actually take it, but even that isn't a sure thing. If he gets a GP, that city's useless until you take Aachen.

I don't mind if he produces archers, I won't be declaring on him for a while, until well past archers will be his primary defenders. More likely I'll be seeing his longbows with my curis, in which case I don't care if they're protective. The city is not quite useless. Once I get a workboat the city will have +6 food at size 2 which is enough to let me whip in a library relatively easily and then work two scientists. Also, I hope to get the Great Lighthouse which will give that city 3 trade routes at least one of which will probably be foreign. Finally, I hope to build the Colossus which will give that city enough coastal tiles to keep itself happy. So while I agree that settling it was not a great idea it does have some redeeming qualities and will be far from useless.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

I know! I'm excited!
 
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