ALC Game #4: Egypt/Hatshepsut

[vormuir]

[fanboy]

Isabella is actually the most attractive female leader. Cuter than Cathy, even.

It's just, you know. The whole sullen fanaticism thing.

[/fanboy]


Waldo

 

[vormuir]

Ahem.

Okay, a question. If Isabella had /not/ moved those units out, could you still have pulled this off?

Second question. You used your green units first, in defender-softening suicide attacks. I'd have done the same, it makes intuitive sense.... but are you sure it's the right way to go? Has anyone done the math?


Waldo

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Watching your income is cracking me up (slowly climbing as the chariots get killed off, and then flatlining when you capture the city. Ow.)

 

[Nares]

Second question. You used your green units first, in defender-softening suicide attacks. I'd have done the same, it makes intuitive sense.... but are you sure it's the right way to go? Has anyone done the math?

No math, but I'm willing to bet it's the right way to go. Even Combat IV War Chariots have relatively poor odds. I find 75% odds fail too often to even think those are reliable, and Combat IV is only going to net you around 70%, tops (unless you happen to catch something like 20% Cultural defense, unpromoted Archer which just popped and hasn't fortified, in which case you might hit 80-90%).

Once you've gotten your Level 5 unit, it might be worth considering tossing your real veterans. But before than, it's definatly green all the way (almost obviously so).

Watching your income is cracking me up (slowly climbing as the chariots get killed off, and then flatlining when you capture the city. Ow.)

The story within the story (and probably the focus of Part Three).

Speaking of Part Three....



EDIT: Hmm, looks like the Queen is spanking Egypt....kinky.

EDIT: Not any more.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Second question. You used your green units first, in defender-softening suicide attacks. I'd have done the same, it makes intuitive sense.... but are you sure it's the right way to go? Has anyone done the math?

The math is straight foward enough (it's grinding, but there's no great difficulty). The tricky bits are choosing the situation you want to test, and the relative values of your attacking units. The second question can be skipped if your only goal is to remove the last defender.

When S loads the save, I may run through a few examples to test different outcomes. Sing out if there is a particular combination you'd like to know about.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 5: to 400 BC

Part Three: Aftermath

Spain is no more, save for two captured cities and an early religion followed solely in its former capital. Did I convert to Buddhism? No...

I pumped up my research to its maximum, running it purely on the gold from the capture of Madrid, and finally finished researching...

And on that very same turn, I got news about another religion:

I remember spotting a Hindu missionary just outside of Heliopolis the turn before. This suited me just fine, as it would improve relations with Vicky--at least in the short run until I declare war on her. Well, if that's my next move; we can all argue about that.

So, with Open Borders established for several turns, Vicky and I sharing the same faith, and me with Alphabet for tech trading, I should be able to snag some choice techs I've missed, right?

You can forgive yourself for thinking so:

A word escaped my lips that rhymes with Ipswich at this point. Several times. Then I realized that I was swearing at a bunch of pixels on my computer screen. Hey, the game is pretty involving, you know. (I also had to do a little sheepish explaining to the wife, who overheard me and assumed I was referring to her, even though I am neither ignorant nor crazy enough to ever do that. Not that she was any more impressed with me after said explaination was delivered. Her eyes rolled so far back into her head that I'm sure she could see herself thinking.)

So I may have to let a few turns go by for Vicky to warm up. I don't mean to sound catty, but Elizabeth is, generally, MUCH friendlier to me. (But then I've always had a thing for redheads...)

At least my economy has started to recover a bit. I'm researching Fishing because it's cheap and will allow Barcelona to start working those fish tiles for some immediate cash, as well as building workboats. After that, I'll have to start the long, slow slog to Code of Laws, spamming cottages all the while.

Fortunately I should be able to remove the stagnation from my cities soon, once I get Vandal's three luxury resources on-line for their happiness bonus--not to mention spreading Hinduism and Buddhism and building the Spiritual trait's cheap temples if needed.

But there's a problem with all of that (of course): I've got barbarians comin' out my yin-yang, as my mom used to say. (Well, not about barbarians--the yin-yang thing. Don't ask; it's a wonder I turned out as near to normal as I did.) One of the little buggers even managed to defeat Memphis' protective WC and pillage the horse pasture. I'm moving some veteran WCs back north and to Vandal for barb-thumping, but there's a lot of thumping to do, believe you me. I already had to raze a pop 1 barb city (bad spot, just south of where Nova Roma will go). And they JUST. KEEP. COMING.

In terms of Wonders--someone beat me to the Oracle, no surprise. Stonehenge has also been built. That's it so far. If I can eventually spam cities and build up my research capacity, the loss of the free tech should not be a big deal. Hey, you have to make some sacrifices when you go warmongering early like this. Of the religions, only Buddhism, Hinduism, and Judaism have been founded. So I suppose I have a shot at Confucianism still, since whoever built the Oracle used it for something other that Code of Laws.

Here is the map at 400 BC, in two parts:

I'll probably change the builds in several of those cities; as I said, I had to stop building units for awhile.

So, what's next? Well, first I have to decide on whether I can fight wars against two enemies: the English and the Barbarians. I'm already at war with the barbs, with no end in sight. At least with the English I have a choice.

Economics and research will be a deciding factor in the latter. If I finish researching Fishing in one turn, I'll have 120 gold left in the bank. At 20% research, I run a -1 GPT deficit. I should be able to raise the slider before 120 turns is up, of course. But almost all of my units are currently in my cities, so warring could plunge me back into a deficit at 0% research again.

So...do I pause for awhile, beat back the barbs, and let my economy recover before even THINKING of warring on Vicky? Or do I go after her NOW, and rely on war booty to keep me afloat as my cottages mature and Vandals' resources gradually come on-line? The longer I delay, the stronger she becomes, and the greater chance my WCs will be obsolete against her. They may already be. I have to send a WC over her way to scout her out before I make the decision.

Your thoughts are, as always, welcome. Here is the saved game.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

If Vicky doesn't warm up in a suitable time frame and you have sufficient WC's (healed up of course), then make sure that she repeats history--just like Izzy before her, she'll be eliminated...

 

[Mutineer]

If she does not have contact with any other civ, and it is my undestanding that she does not because they are dead, she would not trade.
The only way to get tech out of her is to beat it our of it or wait untill she wanted your tech and asked for trade herself.
That happened only if AI decided to research tech and it is avalible from you. Not likly for alphavit, AI does not prioritied it.

So, just collect your chariots, take a few of her cities and sue for peace and some tech.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

So...do I pause for awhile, beat back the barbs, and let my economy recover before even THINKING of warring on Vicky? Or do I go after her NOW, and rely on war booty to keep me afloat as my cottages mature and Vandals' resources gradually come on-line? The longer I delay, the stronger she becomes, and the greater chance my WCs will be obsolete against her. They may already be. I have to send a WC over her way to scout her out before I make the decision.

I can't imagine going to war with Vicky here. You've no economy to speak of, Right now flatlining your research puts you at +4. which means you can take, I think, 8 more units outside your borders (assuming you don't build any more). I'd suggest going the other route - recovering the economy, researching a tech Vicky doesn't have (metal casting would be useful as vandal comes on line), and trying to make some horizontal trades. She's in OrgRel, so you know she has Poly and Mono behind mysticism.

My immediate suggestions: finish Fishing. floor the economy - get your libraries up. Pop the research rate back and concentrate everywhere on commerce (you'd rather invest the hammers after you get to Org Rel anyway, so you can take your time with the other buildings).

Get those workers at Vandal teamed up - you don't need roads, you need mines (me, I'd have done the gold first, and worked the gold until the rest of the work was done - and why is this town building a barracks right now?). Get the happies going. your other team of workers should probably go to Thebes, which can quickly grow into some new cottages if you get them up.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well given the iffy state your in right now... I'd focus on the Barbarians and expansion (which is the best way to fight Barbs.. You have a good continent Mostly to youself.. so I'd say Rex it.

Basically just Cottage spam up to Code of Laws and start Colonizing nearby cities (Double Gold especially). I'd say the WCs have probably outlived thier usefullness except for fighting barbs (and Settler escorts).

So... Slog to Code of Laws (Vicky probably has the three techs you need, so just take what you can when you can)

Production should focus on Granaries, Workers and Settlers (Libraries are nice but don't help your Gold Balance)

but most cities(especially new/small ones)should be focusing on Commerce..2-3 Cottages per city will keep you ahead of the game

I'd say wait until Construction to Invade Vicky, that should be the point at which you've reacquired the tech parity.. and I don't think she has elephants.

After CoL, I'd go Masonry->Literature and start Wondering [Pyramids.. you should have Stone by then, Great Library... Marble you have too]

Then Math->Construction (and then Sailing->Calendar while preparing to invade Vicky)

 

[Sisiutil]

Good suggestions, VoU, though I'll wait for everyone to chime in before proceeding.

Hey, when I started building that barracks in Vandal, I was at war--and I don't have a heckuvalot to build. But you're right, I'm going to reassess all build orders and worker assignments when I return to the game.

Now, what to do about those barbs? Well, if I focus on rebuilding for awhile, that will certainly give my veterans something to do...

 

[Hans Lemurson]

Aye, yea sure got screwed on that Alphabet gamble. I told ya! I told ya to go for Code of Laws straight away!

There is a secondary cost to this. While researching Alphabet, you never got a chance at Mysticism, and so were not able to build Stonehenge. No Stoney-Henge means no free Great-Prophet points to make your Holy Cities profitable. It'll still be possible to get a shrine, but it'll be slow and pricey. basicly, you'll need to dedicate some mans to work as priests for 34 turns. Madrid might be suitable for this, since using a priest doesn't precluse the usage of a cottage.

Lesson: Never trust AIs to help you in your time of need (trust the Hans instead!). Tech-trades are icing on the cake, not something that can be depended upon to help you out. There is really no way an AI would trade you an entire branch of the tech tree.

So, what's the damage? I am not certain that you will even be able to make it to Code of Laws. I myself just barely made it (going the "screw Abc's" route). Can you still conquer Victoria? Maybe. You might be able to hold off on that for a bit, so that you can properly mass your troops. Razing barbarian cities can also provide a good source of income, so keep an eye out for such opportunities.

If you are worried about War Chariots becoming obsolete, there are only 2 units that can do that: Longbows and Swordsmen. So long as Vicky don't got no Iron, your wheely army is good until Feudalism. It's just that you'll have to bring some axes and swords with you as well for the assaults, since Vicky has copper, and therefore axes and spears. The good news is that Axes fight 1 to 1 with War Chariots, and War Chariots are cheap.

Since maintainance costs are ascribed to the number of units you have, and not the quality, it would behoove you to invest in a metal army, instead of all wheels. You can no longer fight an Ancient-Era war with Victoria, you and your armies must move up to the classical age. Swordsmen are what will now carry you to victory over Vicky's cities.

Do not disband your war-chariots though, they are still the shiznit for open-field warfare. Chariots will carry you to victory in the countryside, but you will need swords to break her cities. Wait as long as you need to before assaulting, since there is nothing worse than a failed assault.

Some evil tactics you can use: Bait. Once you have reduced Vicy's armies to cowering Archers, placing a heavily wounded unit near her cities will draw out some defenders. You have to make sure the bait has only 1 unit nearby, otherwise the archers wil chicken out. The rest of your army should be hovering at the perimeters, not directly threatening the city. When archer steps out onto level ground, kill archer. The AI seems to like to keep 3 archers in its cities, and any extras can boil off to whatever need may arise.

So, I'll wrap this up now. If your ambition is military in nature, all of your focus should be militarily inclined. Alphabet is not a military tech. In retrospect, what did you even think you'd be able to trade Vicky? All the techs you want are in a line, so that would require 3 seperate trades in order to get all of them, and that means 3 seperate techs. And they'd be pathetic trades at that, Alphabet for...Myisticism?

The good news is that the rest of the game is going to be...interesting. Interesting how much of an impact one small decision can have. Maybe large, maybe small, time will tell.

 

[vormuir]

Harsh but fair. He's right -- going after Alphabet was a mistake. Even assuming Vicky was friendly, you can't trade that much tech with one AI civ, and no others will be available for a long time to come.

Now I'll switch from reason to emotion: screw it. Kill. /Kill/. Vicky is useless and in the way. Sharpen your claws on the barbs and then take her out. Raze everything but holy cities or wonders.

This may not be the rationally best way to proceed, but surely it will be the most satisfying. Come on! Three rivals eliminated in the first third of the game? Playing skinny little Hatty?

You want this. You know you do.


Waldo

 

[pigswill]

One thing I was wondering was do Barbs raze or occupy captured cities. If Barbs occupy cities then one way of eliminating civs without going bust is you wait for barbs to show up at your unwanted cities, abandon them to the barbs and retake them later when you've restored your economy.

 

[Mutineer]

Barbs raise/occupy cities with 50% chance I believe.

Problem with retaking bark cities is that they by some reaon become 100% barb in that case, cause very long unrest because fo we want to join homeland.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

Perhaps barbarians in that case can be thought of as rebels in the area, and conquest is just the overthrow of the imperial garrison, and formation of an autonomous state.

As for the destruction of England, have fun Assaulting a Holy-city Capitol on a hill! (Bring 3x attackers as defenders). The good news is that the casualties will help with your defecit!

 

[Nares]

As for the destruction of England, have fun Assaulting a Holy-city Capitol on a hill! (Bring 3x attackers as defenders). The good news is that the casualties will help with your defecit!

When given two early game production powerhouses like Thebes and Memphis (they're producing what, 15-20 hpt?), popping out a wonder or two is a good idea. As Hans notes, its the GPP that's really a savior (I used mine for my own holy city, Memphis, in which Confuscianism was founded, and later Christianity in the same city, despite what I would think are seemingly substantial odds against the latter occurring, given that I had three non-holy cities available). It's almost a "why not" decision, once you look at the build times. It also gives your War Chariots time to transit to the battlesite (I found the constant stream to be annoying after awhile, especially if they started encountering Barbarians on the way and were forced to rest enroute). At the very least, it would have given you gold to work with if you failed to complete them.

I founded the double Gold city early on. It allowed me to delay capturing Vandal-4-Life (dubbed because everyone seems to be getting a barb city in that exact location). I also chose not to capture Madrid, but otherwise reduced Izzy to rubble (razing every improvement of hers, including roads). It really wasn't worth it, especially after having founded Confuscianism myself.

Yes, I did grab CoL with The Oracle, so that was certainly a big help. I didn't get a tech from a hut, but those villagers gave me some 250 gold (along with two maps; seems to be an extreme amount of huts in this game, as usually I'm lucky if I pop more than two or three).

I think the big key was El Dorado (aka Heliopolis, my third city, by the double Gold). It required no Jungle clearing, and worked well with the early game Happiness limit (four, which is all the tiles it needs to work for awhile). The lack of Jungle means it can grow, and with only four improvements to make, (nine with roads to the Mines and the River), it won't require a heavy investment of worker turns to get it up and running (unlike a Jungle city, most of which require that many turns just to get it out of the Jungle in the first place, let alone actually improve the terrain).

I chose not to take Madrid which helped alleviate my own Barbarian problems (from the dozens Sisiutil's seeing to the handful I encountered when Madrid was left alone). With the combined reduced maintenance costs and increased commerce (read: reasearch, because I was able to run higher science rates by not expanding as rapidly), I managed to finish researching Alphabet some three or four turns after trapping Izzy in Madrid, and "convinced" her to part with Monarchy and Monotheism for peace (another benefit of leaving her alive).

All of these things (the GPP from Stonehenge and The Oracle for shrines, The Oracle for CoL, Alphabet for getting some techs from Izzy, limited expansion, El-D and later V-4-L) combined to make the situation more manageable. Further helping me was that Vicky did not found Hinduism (it's on the other continent), so I was able to spread my religion to her (and further boosted relations by accepting the trades she offered, including gifting her Meditation when she asked). This gave me room to expand without having to develop much more military beyond the War Chariots I used to hem Izzy (who I later went back and trimmed some more, once she thought to settle in what was my territory, despite being entirely outside my borders at the time).

Any of these things would have helped, but the issue now is how to pull your economy from the toilet.

 

[Nares]

I'm wondering, Sisiutil, if this is worse than the financial hole you found yourself in after taking the continent in ALC3. That you don't have techs for basic infrastructure building is certainly a challenge.

It would appear that all you can do now is Cottage-spam your way out of it, and try your best not to get into a war with Vicky (who's gonna be tough to crack, no matter how you try). She's liable to have at least one Spearman in each of her cities (you can at least take out her Copper early enough, I'd think, to keep her from building more). One alone is going to take out around two to three War Chariots without a good deal of luck on your part (and certainly don't let them ever survive; they'll slaughter your WCs if they have the chance to promote).

As Krikkitone suggests, found the double Gold city. It at least will provide positive returns, and won't require much time to develop (not nearly as much as a Cottage-spam city, which is why I founded the place so early, and had been keen on founding it early since Memphis had been established).

Additionally, if ever there were cities to abandon to the Barbarians, Madrid and Barcelona are likely candidates (I assume you didn't really mean to keep Barcelona in the first place, but did so because it is in a good site, but only good in the midgame given your starting position).

I'd say get a Missionary out, but that's not possible. I wonder if the Barbarians will raze Madrid or not...

You can also try to beeline for the nearest wonder, start constructing it, then just leave it in queue, or drop it from the queue (but don't let its hammers diminish, make sure to add a little to it every so often until its completed; EDIT: completed by someone else, d'oh). Masonry -> Fishing -> Sailing isn't a bad idea.

 

[vormuir]

Holy city on a hill... hm. Well, the holy city part won't make much difference. It'll be 60% regardless.

But, okay. Sisiutl, if a third war of annihilation is too alarming, try this.

Send a WC out to scout Vicky's empire. Wait a few turns (while building cottages and whatnot, yadda yadda) then follow with an expedition force of, say, four WCs.

Not the Stack of Doom! No. This is not total war. Instead, it's war of harassment -- what the French call a guerre du course.

You want to pillage everything in sight, right down to the roads. If you see a new, weak city (20% defense and size 3 or less) you might attack it, but otherwise you leave the cities alone.

Obviously your first priorities are to grab workers and to pillage her metal. Once that's done, you just sack everything in sight. Anything walks out into the open to challenge you, you kill it.

There won't be a lot she can do about this. The AI generally prefers axes to spears, so she probably doesn't have any spearmen in her cities right now. And once you pillage her mines, she won't be building any. Axemen can give you a fight, but your well-promoted units should be able to hold them off. After a while Vicky won't have anything to fight you with... just archers holed up in her cities, while your chariots run mad across her countryside.

After ten or so turns of this, you should have sacked pretty much every tile in her empire. Now sue for peace.

Worst-case scenario, she's slow to come to terms, and you get some war weariness. Best-case, you get some pointy stick research. Either way, she's permanently crippled, and you can go back and finish her at your leisure when your economy is back on track.

The nice thing about this scenario is, sending one WC to scout ahead lets you make an informed decision. If it turns out her cities are full of angry spears, you can bail. And you don't have to build any new units... you have more than enough to carry out this strategy.

Come on. You /know/ you want to.


Waldo

 

[Hans Lemurson]

I approve of Vormuir's suggested course of action. Reduce her economy to tatters, her outskirts to ruins and her armies to cowering archers. A WC army cannot be defeated on the open plain.