Alexander the Great vs. China

[aelf]

However, I doubt that the Chinese crossbows would have done much, to be honest. They're being a bit overrated. Seeing as the whole (pretty much, with the exception of elites and officers) Chinese army was conscript (and they fight epically badly) and the whole Macedonian army was as good as professional, there's no real contest here.

Shrug. If you insist.

The comparison on effectiveness was one on one - I recognized the impact of numbers, but are you saying the entire army has composite crossbows ? What else do they carry for weapons ? Maybe Nokmirt should also have an opportunity to comment on the composition.

AFAIK most if not all the heavy infantry would be armed with good quality crossbows.

From what I know the first line is light infantry, followed by heavy infantry, then the chariots, which I am guessing break through the opponents infantry. Then comes the cavalry to cut down the broken routed enemy. I am still studying up on it, and am in the process of learning more, just slowly, I hurt myself real bad yesterday, knee injury, so I am trying to recuperate, but it looks as if I will have plenty of time to read, for quite awhile. I do want to learn about different units and weapons composition and tactics. Right now I am going to watch a movie called red cliff which deals with the later three kingdoms period. I love that time period and I guess it is in two parts. Maybe this will give me some kind of insight until I can get ahold of the right reading material. I do have a book called battle that deals with china, I have to read it yet. At the same time I am modding for civ 4 BTS, a scenario, for my mod which will have Alexander and every nation between him and China. From making this mod I will learn some important things about both sides.

Red Cliff is the suck. Don't bother with it if you want accuracy. Heck, it doesn't even get the story of the Romance right. I really hate John Woo. He's such a crap director.

 

[vogtmurr]

Red Cliff- that is one of the more interesting battles from the three kingdom's era - a river battle wasn't it ? Take it easy on that knee and godspeed

 

[Dachs]

Red Cliff- that is one of the more interesting battles from the three kingdom's era - a river battle wasn't it ? Take it easy on that knee and godspeed

It was a bit more complicated than just a simple "river battle", but yeah that was the centerpiece of the whole thing. Kinda like Napoleon's invasion of Russia in 1812, but if he lost a battle after trying to advance beyond Moscow. Cao Cao's army got ripped to shreds in the retreat from Chibi.

 

[aelf]

It was a bit more complicated than just a simple "river battle", but yeah that was the centerpiece of the whole thing. Kinda like Napoleon's invasion of Russia in 1812, but if he lost a battle after trying to advance beyond Moscow. Cao Cao's army got ripped to shreds in the retreat from Chibi.

And he escaped only because Guan Yu let him go. That's the Romance, though.

By the way, no one should take the movie Red Cliff as a reference for anything (not even as an authority of any sort on the Romance). That would be much worse than the earlier video and would probably be the last straw for me

 

[nokmirt]

Shrug. If you insist.



AFAIK most if not all the heavy infantry would be armed with good quality crossbows.



Red Cliff is the suck. Don't bother with it if you want accuracy. Heck, it doesn't even get the story of the Romance right. I really hate John Woo. He's such a crap director.

Sorry but john woo has outdone himself my friend, so far the movie is very good, I am half way through it. I cannot judge the man harshly from what he has brought to the screen in this case. Very interesting, excellent battle scenes, and really beautiful photography, this movie is far from boring. Also, it is true to life, some great fighting, but within realistic boundaries, we are not flying 100 feet through the air, and fighting on soft white clouds, or celestial bodies of water. I love movies like Iron Monkey etc., but this is lifelike and realistic, a change in Chinese drama and war of late. Do not judge Woo too harshly my friend.

 

[aelf]

Sorry but john woo has outdone himself my friend, so far the movie is very good, I am half way through it. I cannot judge the man harshly from what he has brought to the screen in this case. Very interesting, excellent battle scenes, and really beautiful photography, this movie is far from boring. Also, it is true to life, some great fighting, but within realistic boundaries, we are not flying 100 feet through the air, and fighting on soft white clouds, or celestial bodies of water. I love movies like Iron Monkey etc., but this is lifelike and realistic, a change in Chinese drama and war of late. Do not judge Woo too harshly my friend.

What about one man pwning 100 is realistic? And freaking valuable generals are rushing to the front line to get themselves surrounded by dozens of enemies while the rest of the army watch and cheer them on I was surprised Zhu Ge Liang didn't join in and fight with iron fans or something. What, been playing too much Dynasty Warriors?

While the Romance has duels between generals, that is not something completely ahistorical. Alexander and Porus were supposed to have had a duel in the midst of battle (one where Alexander apparently lost). And, of course, many generals both in the Romance and in history were good warriors, but the movie is, typical of Woo, extremely exaggerated. It's an Eastern 300. Completely overblown, and missing a lot of the original Romance, which is replaced by Hollywood stuff (such as taking out the inherent tension between Kong Ming and Zhou Yu - not BFF!!! - and overplaying the crush Cao Cao has on Zhou Yu's wife, and WTH is Vicky Zhao's character, etc etc).

I'm sorry. When I watched the movie, I was either bored or practically laughing at it. It's almost as bad as House of Flying Daggers, and I have a great deal more respect for Zhang Yimou than for John Woo, that and Curse of the Golden Flower notwithstanding.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

What about one man pwning 100 is realistic? And freaking valuable generals are rushing to the front line to get themselves surrounded by dozens of enemies while the rest of the army watch and cheer them on I was surprised Zhu Ge Liang didn't join in and fight with iron fans or something. What, been playing too much Dynasty Warriors?

While the Romance has duels between generals, that is not something completely ahistorical. Alexander and Porus were supposed to have had a duel in the midst of battle (one where Alexander apparently lost).

This story is actually a product of the propaganda machine surrounding Alexander. I forget who it was, but they wrote a story about the Battle of the Hydaspes later on during the Indus campaign, and that's where the duel between him and Porus comes from. Alexander told the writer his story was bollocks and refused to let him disseminate it.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Alexander's cavalry is comparable to the Mongol cavalry that same way that the redcoat's rifles is comparable to the American M16 assault rifle.

This is also saying that, 700 (typical number of Alexander's cavalry) is the same as 30,000 (typical number of Mongol cavalry).

**************

From what I've read, we're making the follow assumptions.
1. Alexander's army will have essentially teleported to the Chinese border ready to engage in battle. The logistics of war will be ignored.

2. Alexander will have sufficient time to grow his army from around 60,000 to a size that that would match at least one of the Chinese sides army's (Cao Cao's army being 300,000).

3. Unlike the Chinese, who had about 60,000 professional soldiers and had to conscript the rest of the soldiers from the peasantry (due to economic reasons), as Alexander's army grows, it will will retain the same percentage of professionally trained soldiers.

4. The Chinese military powers will still be at war with each other.

I guess under those conditions, Alexander will probably win.

He lives?!?!

 

[aelf]

This story is actually a product of the propaganda machine surrounding Alexander. I forget who it was, but they wrote a story about the Battle of the Hydaspes later on during the Indus campaign, and that's where the duel between him and Porus comes from. Alexander told the writer his story was bollocks and refused to let him disseminate it.

But why would propaganda say that Alex lost the duel? Unless it's anti-Alex propaganda

 

[Dachs]

Single combat by commanders in warfare in Antiquity is awesome, from Eumenes vs Neoptolemos to Marcellus and the spolia optima to Herakleios decapitating Rhahzadh...so long as it actually happens.

 

[aelf]

Single combat by commanders in warfare in Antiquity is awesome, from Eumenes vs Neoptolemos to Marcellus and the spolia optima to Herakleios decapitating Rhahzadh...so long as it actually happens.

Marcellus is awesome indeed. A consul fighting a hand-to-hand duel with a barbarian chief? Which Roman can not yes to that?

 

[vogtmurr]

From what I know the first line is light infantry, followed by heavy infantry, then the chariots, which I am guessing break through the opponents infantry. Then comes the cavalry to cut down the broken routed enemy..

Sounds pretty familiar to me

 

[nokmirt]

What about one man pwning 100 is realistic? And freaking valuable generals are rushing to the front line to get themselves surrounded by dozens of enemies while the rest of the army watch and cheer them on I was surprised Zhu Ge Liang didn't join in and fight with iron fans or something. What, been playing too much Dynasty Warriors?

While the Romance has duels between generals, that is not something completely ahistorical. Alexander and Porus were supposed to have had a duel in the midst of battle (one where Alexander apparently lost). And, of course, many generals both in the Romance and in history were good warriors, but the movie is, typical of Woo, extremely exaggerated. It's an Eastern 300. Completely overblown, and missing a lot of the original Romance, which is replaced by Hollywood stuff (such as taking out the inherent tension between Kong Ming and Zhou Yu - not BFF!!! - and overplaying the crush Cao Cao has on Zhou Yu's wife, and WTH is Vicky Zhao's character, etc etc).

I'm sorry. When I watched the movie, I was either bored or practically laughing at it. It's almost as bad as House of Flying Daggers, and I have a great deal more respect for Zhang Yimou than for John Woo, that and Curse of the Golden Flower notwithstanding.

I can understand where you are coming from, but it is only based on a legendary story, and how could you not like house of flying daggers. Don't fault Woo for having a big imagination. I know it is quite far fetched that they send their best generals into the fray, like dynasty warriors(speaking of that, I always loved Kessen, especially Kessen 2, those games had a larger scope). By the way how did you like 300? Did you think that was no good either. I know I may have a soft spot for eye candy and I know Hollywood will never be like the book, but come on man, don't you think your being overly critical. Alot of this stuff they put in movies, is to keep people in their seats for at least three reels. How about the movie Alexander? What did you think of that? I watch it sometimes, but they should have made it into at least three parts, way too much was missing.

Oh and aelf you say Alexander met Porus on the field, which one, there were two of them, father and son. The son or prince was in command of the small advanced force, of cavalry and chariots, sent from the main army down along the Hydaspes River. Porus was hoping to stop Alexanders army from crossing to their side of the river. However, Alexander already had crossed, and the young Porus was killed in battle, probably when his chariots got bogged down in the mud, after which this small force was destroyed. Now I do know, Alexander and the King Porus, met after the main battle. Alexander having much respect for his bravery, especially for his decision to stay and fight a losing battle to its final bloody conclusion. I would like to know more about them meeting during the battle.

I know our views may differ about things, but I respect your knowledge

 

[aelf]

I can understand where you are coming from, but it is only based on a legendary story, and how could you not like house of flying daggers.

It's god-awful. The noticably fake foam-snow was the last straw. My ex and I broke out into laughter.

Don't fault Woo for having a big imagination. I know it is quite far fetched that they send their best generals into the fray, like dynasty warriors(speaking of that, I always loved Kessen, especially Kessen 2, those games had a larger scope). By the way how did you like 300? Did you think that was no good either.

I hate 300. It doesn't have the artistic license of the comic, so it only comes off overdone. The comic had some ambiguity to me. The movie didn't.

I know I may have a soft spot for eye candy and I know Hollywood will never be like the book, but come on man, don't you think your being overly critical. Alot of this stuff they put in movies, is to keep people in their seats for at least three reels.

I may watch it anyway, since I watch a lot of movies during the summer (if it comes out in summer), and it's still better than half the movies at the cinema at any one time. Doesn't mean I'd like it, though. Just amusing in a stupid way.

How about the movie Alexander? What did you think of that? I watch it sometimes, but they should have made it into at least three parts, way too much was missing.

Heard it was bad. Didn't bother.

Oh and aelf you say Alexander met Porus on the field, which one, there were two of them, father and son. The son or prince was in command of the small advanced force, of cavalry and chariots, sent from the main army down along the Hydaspes River. Porus was hoping to stop Alexanders army from crossing to their side of the river. However, Alexander already had crossed, and the young Porus was killed in battle, probably when his chariots got bogged down in the mud, after which this small force was destroyed. Now I do know, Alexander and the King Porus, met after the main battle. Alexander having much respect for his bravery, especially for his decision to stay and fight a losing battle to its final bloody conclusion. I would like to know more about them meeting during the battle.

No, that was during the actual battle. Porus saw Alex and challenged him. The two fought and Alex got unhorsed. His bodyguards took him away and captured Porus. As Cheezy said, though, it might well have been made up.

 

[vogtmurr]

By the way how did you like 300?

I think it was worth it - we're so starved for good historical sagas as it is. I realize it had harsh criticism about accuracy, but most of it's sins were by omission - it made no attempt to provide history, or the context of the other Greeks in this war. It wasn't targeted at amateur historians, but was it necessary to make the Ephors a bunch of leprous lechers, Ephialtes a deformed ogre, and the Immortals look like Ninja assassins ? The whole movie had an atmosphere that was unique, as if it was filmed through the mist of ages (color filters ?)

How about the movie Alexander? What did you think of that? I watch it sometimes, but they should have made it into at least three parts, way too much was missing.

That was the biggest problem, even this 3 hour epic is usually considered too long for movie goers. Oliver Stone made a good attempt though - there was certainly some realism here. The only way to tell the story I think would be a 3 part mini-series like you say.

Heard it was bad. Didn't bother.

That's your misfortune, it doesn't translate as well to the small screen.

 

[Flying Pig]

Single combat by commanders in warfare in Antiquity is awesome, from Eumenes vs Neoptolemos to Marcellus and the spolia optima to Herakleios decapitating Rhahzadh...so long as it actually happens.

Not a great way of winning a war, though.

 

[mrt144]

No his men would be old and he was on his way back home. Think about it like this his empire wouldn't of been an empire. It would of just been places without government. He couldn't of conquered china and managed to hold onto the rest of his gains. Plus he minds well of been chinese. He wouldn't be empire of greece just empire of China.

Might as well?

 

[BIG sven]

I now think that the greeks would win but it would not be that easy.The chinese would out number them but the greeks would be better equipt with alot of types of fighters(cavlry, spearmen, etc) to counter what ever the chinese sent against them.

 

[Flying Pig]

Plus they have the best attacker in human history at their head.

 

[Dachs]

Not a great way of winning a war, though.

Sure it is. "Cut off the head" - in Herakleios' case literally - and the body just kind of flops around uselessly. Admittedly, it didn't work out too well for Eumenes, but that was Perdikas' fault for being a fool, not Eumenes' own.