Altered Maps V: The Molotov-Threadentropp Pact

[Masada]

While that's true, there's a view that Malaysia is not entirely reliable, and the pro-separatist stance of the opposition isn't helping.

I don't think anyone outside of PAS has any idea what its stance on the matter is. Its been content to stoke the flames of Malay nationalism but that could just be canny politics and not some sort of deeply held political belief.

The idea of "autonomy" certainly gained more support within Thailand now, but the degree of autonomy remains divisive.

Sure, its been accepted in principle, which is somewhat different to being 'unthinkable'.

What Malaysia suggests is along the line of an autonomous region or SAR, while the Thai government is looking at something less dramatic (setting up a SEZ, and some Sharia-based laws), not autonomy in the sense of an entity distinct from the rest of Thailand.

I'm not sure what the Thai government is looking to do, it hasn't got much of a policy on the matter. The continuing political chaos could break out any moment and the last thing any Thai government wants is lèse majesté claims accusations flying around.

The opposition is proposing something like a municipality for the southern provinces with some powers to enact its own laws but that is controversial.

I'm not really all that interested in what the opposition is proposing, it won't ever be allowed to form government and if it did then you might as well ignore anything it has to say on the matter -- all bets will be off as soon as you can say 'Civil War'.

A SAR proposal is being discussed but doesn't seem to have many supporters.

Thailand's decision making process is hard enough to figure out in normal circumstances and these are not them. With the notoriously secretive Privy Council pulling all the strings we probably won't know what way the 'government' is leaning until it begins implementation. Nevertheless, I'm willing to bet that continued stability in the south is going to be worth the cost in the short term. The King is going to die sometime soon, unfortunately, and when that happens the south, if it isn't pacified, might conceivably have a very good shot at breaking free.

 

[Tee Kay]

I don't think anyone outside of PAS has any idea what its stance on the matter is. Its been content to stoke the flames of Malay nationalism but that could just be canny politics and not some sort of deeply held political belief.

Unsettling, all the same.

Sure, its been accepted in principle, which is somewhat different to being 'unthinkable'.

My bad. When I say unthinkable, I was thinking an autonomous state, rather than limited autonomy.

I'm not sure what the Thai government is looking to do, it hasn't got much of a policy on the matter. The continuing political chaos could break out any moment and the last thing any Thai government wants is lèse majesté claims accusations flying around.

Current policy is to stop the killings of govt employees, teachers, monks, etc and keep some semblance of order (via martial law), find out what the separatists want (not easy since there's no one distinct public rebel group) and try to get local support by improving the economy (hence the proposal to establish a SEZ). The government doesn't want to give too much autonomy, and it's trying to quieten calls for autonomy with economic incentives.

I'm not really all that interested in what the opposition is proposing, it won't ever be allowed to form government and if it did then you might as well ignore anything it has to say on the matter -- all bets will be off as soon as you can say 'Civil War'.

True, the PM spoke out against the opposition, saying the proposal will "lead to confusion" (which it did, since the media variously reported the proposed municipality as "Pattani City", "Pattani City-State" and "Pattani State", all with quite different meanings). Pro-PAD media have already condemned the plan as a sell-out. Still, the views of the opposition can't just be ignored, especially in the current climate. They can still influence opinion without being in government.

 

[PiMan]

I would have thought 100m rise would have had a way larger effect than that...

Yeah, it looked like no more than 20 metres to me at first. I thought it might have been a typo, and was meant to say 10 not 100. Although a closer look at England and it seems about right.

 

[Masada]

Unsettling, all the same.

Malaysian political parties haven't been committing to all that much lately.

My bad. When I say unthinkable, I was thinking an autonomous state, rather than limited autonomy.

That's not really unthinkable either.

Current policy is to stop the killings of govt employees, teachers, monks, etc and keep some semblance of order (via martial law)

That's damage control, not a policy.

find out what the separatists want (not easy since there's no one distinct public rebel group)

While there's a bewildering array of groups with different acronyms its not all that hard to figure out what they want - independence!

and try to get local support by improving the economy (hence the proposal to establish a SEZ).

Successive governments have been trying to do that since the sixties, it didn't work then and it won't work now. The problems you have more or less already mentioned - the presence of monks, teachers and government employees are the simply the physical manifestations.

The government doesn't want to give too much autonomy, and it's trying to quieten calls for autonomy with economic incentives.

I doubt it will have a choice. Its only regained a semblance of control and that could slip very quickly if something isn't done.

True, the PM spoke out against the opposition, saying the proposal will "lead to confusion" (which it did, since the media variously reported the proposed municipality as "Pattani City", "Pattani City-State" and "Pattani State", all with quite different meanings).

$10 those media outlets choice of word can be traced to their political allegiance.

Pro-PAD media have already condemned the plan as a sell-out. Still, the views of the opposition can't just be ignored, especially in the current climate. They can still influence opinion without being in government.

The problem is that nobody in the south takes anything the opposition has to say seriously. You didn't see big demonstrations in favor of the proposal in Pattani did you now? Everyone seems to be aware that if the opposition wins Thaskin will return and so will his policies of extrajudicial killings and random acts of violence.

 

[Winner]

Yeah, it looked like no more than 20 metres to me at first. I thought it might have been a typo, and was meant to say 10 not 100. Although a closer look at England and it seems about right.

Here's a special for you - Australia under different sea levels, from today's normal to 500 meters above present sea level.

(note: no amount of global warming can possibly rise sea levels so much)

---

And here's another map:

 

[Godwynn]

I would have thought 100m rise would have had a way larger effect than that...

Are you talking about geography wise?

I think a lot of that area now submerged is farmland, not to mention all of the people being displaced.

However, lots of the South looks underwater.

 

[Masada]

Honestly, Australia got exponentially more awesome at what I presume to be the 100m mark. I for one endorse having an inland ocean!

 

[PiMan]

Yeah, I couldn't really comment on Australia with your previous maps because they just weren't big enough.
With these maps, I can see why it is great that I live a couple hundred metres above sea level. Of course, as stated, there is no way total global warming would raise sea levels anywhere near that high anyway, but still.

btw, I have a map. I think it is my first map for one of these topics.

A what if map proposing no war of independence. If you don't like the map, or the story behind it, don't blame me. I just copied it from Railroad Tycoon 3, Alternate USA map (part of the free expansion pack).

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

The Texhoma Republic
Capital: Houston
Official Language: Spanish

The Texhoma Republi gained independence from Mexico in 1836. Since then, Texhoma has built a solid economic foundation with its cattle and oil industries and has emerged as one of the more powerful nations in North America.

There have been ongoing skirmishes with Mexico regarding everything from border disputes to all out attempts by Mexico to reclaim their lost territory, but so far, Texhoma has successfully defended themselves.

Spoiler :

Pacifica
Capital: Sacramento
Official Language: English

Early in the 1800s, trails from the established east, across the continent, to the western side of North America had been well established by explorers and surveyors. By mid century thousands of settlers annually were taking these trails into the open western lands looking for a new life.

By the time the New England – Dixie war started in 1862, there were well over a million settlers of English descent living west of the rocky mountains. Sacramento, San Francisco, and Portland were established, thriving cities.

As the war began, the local politicians of the Pacific Territory (as it was known) quickly saw the chance to establish their own nation, separate from the distant New England.

In the Great Council of Sacramento in 1863, Pacifica declared themselves a sovreign nation. New England, busy with the war against Dixie, and later recovering from the loss of that war, never managed to muster any real oppposition to the loss of their western territories.

It's been said that New England's real loss in the New England – Dixie war was not Dixie, but Pacifica.

Pacifica originally claimed most of western North America including what is now the Republic of Arizona and Roosevelt. Its territory were reduced to today's borders after granting the Navajo nation the territory of Arizona in 1869 and the secession of Roosevelt after the Western War in 1888.

Spoiler :

Arizona
Capital: Phoenix
Official Language: Athabascan

As New England settlers began pushing westward in the 1800s, they came more and more into conflict with North American natives. Conflict was the natural outcome when the newcomers trespass of the natives' territory clashed with the settlers desire to carve out homesteads and utilize the abundant resources of the western half of the continent.

Most of these encounters ended badly for the natives who had little hope of sustainingvictories against the better equiped, better organised, and eventually, more numerous settlers.

Despite the losses, the natives continued their resistance against the encrouchment of the whites. Although rarely victorious, they used their knowledge of the land to slow their advancement.

After Pacifica was founded in 1863, the leaders of this new nation sought a way to end the conflict with the native Americans, who, by this time, had been decimated and had been forced into hiding in remote locales, mostly in the south of Pacifica.

The leaders of Pacifica struck a deal with the Navajos, one of the largest tribes of natives. The agreement was that inexchange for Navajo help in leading the rest of the natives into peaceful relations, or in rooting them out should they not come peaceably, the natives would be given their own territory to be governed as they saw fit.

The leaders of Arizona, however, wasted little time in declaring their independence from Pacifica, and in 1869, the Republic of Arizona was born.

Although there have been isolated instances of violence by rouge groups of natives, hunted by both Pacifica and Arizona, who refuse to acknowledge the white man's claim to any territory, the republic territory, the Republic of Arizona has managed to maintain their independence thus far, riding a precarious balance between their own beliefs and lifestyles and the new culture of the white man.

Spoiler :

Roosevelt
Capital: Denver
Official Language: English

Slowly settled over the course of the 19th century by settlers from New England, the territory that is now Roosevelt seceded from New England in 1863 as part of Pacifica.

For the next 25 years, relations between the industrial, more densely populated west coast and the agrarian and ranching lifestyle of the interior became more and more strained. At the issue were disagreements over localgovernment power, taxes, and military protection from hostile natives as well as the territories to the east.

In 1886, led by the charismatic immigrant Theodore 'Teddy' Roosevelt, the eastern half of Pacifica rose in open revolt.

What followed was a very lackluster attempt by Pacifica to bring the rebelling territory back under their wing. Never quite able to cope with the rough territory of the Rocky Mountains, and soundly beaten by Roosevelt when they did manage some action against the rebels, Pacifica conceded Roosevelt's independence in the Treaty of Missoula, signed in 1888.

Roosevelt himself became the first leader of this new nation which was named after him.

Spoiler :

Louisiana
Capital: Now Orleans
Official Language: French

When Dixie began their war to gain independence from England in the 1860s, things didn't go well. The loyalists of New England had more men, more resources and the backing of the British, and Dixie quickly found itself on the defensive.

Dixie turned to france, long enemies of the Englih. As further enticement to bring the French intothe war on their side, Dixie promised the French control of Louisiana, the territory on their western borders which remained largely ungoverned.

With the backing of the French, Dixie turned the tide of the war, and in 1867 gained their independence. The French took control of Louisiana.

French control was to be short lived however. The people of Louisiana, unhappy with the lack of support from the French, who had focused most of their attention on their less distant holdings in Africa, declared independence from the French in 1884. The declaration was not opposed by the French.

Spoiler :

Dixie
Capital: Birmingham
Official Language: English

The territory that is now Dixie was claimed and settled (along with New England) by the English as early as the 1600s.

By the early 1850s, relations were openly hostile between the agricultural south and the industrial north of the English colony. Issues over economic freedom, tariffs, and slavery were tearing England's most precious colony apart.

In 1862, Dixie declared independence from England in a proclamation given at Ft. Sumter. England, and the loyalist territories of New England to the north, quickly moved to quash this rebellion.

By 1864, Dixie found itself on the defensive to the superior combined forces of the northern territories and England. Loyalist armies were positioned deep within their borders.

In a bold move, Dixie president Jefferson Davis turned to France, long enemies of England. With many promises, the largest of which was giving the French control of Louisiana, Dixie enticed France to support her in the war for independence.

The Dixie and French forces quickly turned the tide of the war, and in 1867 the English recognised Dixie's independence.

Spoiler :

Florida
Capital: St. Augustine
Official Language: Spanish

Florida has had a very warlike history. Spanish and Frnech explorers began mapping out this territory in the 16th and 17th centuries, followed closely by settlers as each country tried to establish their claim on Florida first.

Competition, quickly erupted into conflict between the French and the Spanish. By the early 1700s, Spain had emerged as the victor and Florida became a recognised Spanish colony.

As the English began settling the Atlantic seaboard to the north, Spanish Floridians found themselves increasingly under attack by the English colonists.

Florida originally reached as far up the Atlantic coast as Columbia, into what is now Dixie. However, a series of military defeats and subsequent treaties with the English in the first half of the 18th century, led to the reduction of Florida's borders into their present position.

Throughout the 18th and early 19th centuries, Florida remained governed by the Spanih. This period was relatively uneventful other than an ongoing struggle with the Native American inhabitants.

In 1814, New England born Andrew Jackson offered his services to Florida to combat the growing Indian problem. A series of resounding victories by Jackson made him a hero throughout the territory.

In 1828, Florida declared independence from Spain, and once again turned to the hero Jackson to lead their armies in the defence against the Spanish. Jackson led a brilliant campaign, and by 1831, Florida was an independent nation, with Andrew Jackson as her first President.

Spoiler :

The Great Lakes Confederation
Capital: Columbus
Official Language: German

Even as New England was beginning to prosper in the 18th century, German and Scandinavian immigrants, looking for a place where they could settle and recreate the traditions of their homelands were moving west and settling the land south of Lake Erie and around Lake Michigan.

By 1803, Ohio Territory had gained enough population to open the question of admittance into New England. However, the largely non English population roundly voted down the proposal and declared themselves as the republic of Ohio.

Relations between the newly established nation of Ohio and New England were badly strained over the next few decades, especially as more territory allied themselves with Ohio. However, due to diligent efforts by politicians from both countries, all out war was avoided.

Over the next 50 years, the rest of the territories around the Great Lakes allied themselves with Ohio. Indiana in 1816, Illinois in 1818, Michigan in 1837, Wisconsin in 1848 and finally Minnesota in 1858. The territories collectively became known as The Great Lakes Confederation.

Spoiler :

New England
Capital: New York City
Official Language: English

New England (along with Dixie) was the original territory settled by the British as early as the 1600s.

New England has always maintained a close relationship with England. When the agricultural south declared independence from the British, New England sided with their counterparts across the Atlantic and entered into war with the southern rebels.

A rebel alliance with France however, brought independence to the south in 1867 and gave rise to the nation of Dixie which consisted of over half the territory previously claimed by New England.

As time passed, and Dixie prospered, the people of New England became more and more enchanted with the idea of their own self rule. Rather than take a belligerent approach against England in order to gain independence, New England chose a diplomatic and political route.

After several years of debate, the declining British Empire agreed to grant endependence to their prize colony which, by then, was a stronger economic power than they were.

In 1894, New England became a sovereign nation.

Spoiler :

The Great Plains Union
Capital: <not specified>
Official Language: <not specified>

The Great Plains Union has ever been in a fragile position; bountiful land, central location, but mostly rural and less powerful than her industrial neighbours.
Little is known about this country in the game because it is the starting territory, and so its history wasn't given a chance to be elaborated on. I have a feeling that this country was added late in the development of the level, after the stories for the other nations were set.

Spoiler :

Later events
World War 1 &#8211; A world war is beginning. The Great Lakes Confederation and Florida's sympathies lie with Germany and Austria. New England, Dixie, and Louisiana are sympathetic to Britain and France. Other nations have either officially declared neutrality or made no declaration.

Pacifica-Arizona War &#8211; In August 1936, a group of Arizonians are charged with assassinating President Kersey of Pacifica. In November of that year, tensions rise and armies are mobilised. In March 1937, war breaks out with an attack on Yuma, Arizona.
The war ends in 1944, the status quo is preserved.

 

[say1988]

Not really criticism, but a question: without the revolutionary war, when, or how, did Spain gain Florida from the British?

Just to observe that over time, the Rest of British North America (especially New Brunswick and Nova Scotia) would have become far less differentiated then the 13 colonies. Even during the revolution many thought Nova Scotia would join if not for massive garrisons and being cut off from the rebel territory.

 

[warpus]

Like Poles...?

Yeah, ever since we've built canals in Poland, we now consider ourselves to be a nation of island-dwellers

 

[Harvin87]

Now I understand your location

 

[Winner]

Are you talking about geography wise?

I think a lot of that area now submerged is farmland, not to mention all of the people being displaced.

Billions of people would be displaced.

I've posted these pictures before, but they're so cool I'll do it again (this is about 80 m rise in sea level):

Spoiler :

 

[say1988]

Canada rocks, we don't lose anything important if sea levels rise
The Maritimes drown? Big deal. It would be unfortunate that we probably will lose Vancouver, but Southern Ontario and Alberta [our oil] should be safe, so we are good.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Is there any map of the world if world sea level rose?

 

[TheLastOne36]

Gomel and Mogilyov, is where Chernobyl is has affected strongly. Funny since if you pronounce mogilyov in a special way it means grave.



Zra, Too bad.

Yes, As I said, paradox made the map squished in some parts. I had to delete Polesia to make space for Belarus. I think it was the best way.

Let's just say for now that Chernobyl is in northern Kiew.

 

[RedRalph]

Jesus Christ I'd have to move to Meath... what really riles me is that Poland gets off relatively lightly

 

[PlutonianEmpire]

Billions of people would be displaced.

I've posted these pictures before, but they're so cool I'll do it again (this is about 80 m rise in sea level):

Spoiler :

Is that Celestia? If so, where'd you get those textures?

 

[TheLastOne36]

Jesus Christ I'd have to move to Meath... what really riles me is that Poland gets off relatively lightly

Umm you want us to drown now? I know you guys all hated us, but seriously.. Advocating for deaths of millions?

 

[RedRalph]

Umm you want us to drown now? I know you guys all hated us, but seriously.. Advocating for deaths of millions?

I'm only messing. I would glady sacrifice my own life to save Poland. Only if ye renounced nationalism though

 

[TheLastOne36]

I'm only messing. I would glady sacrifice my own life to save Poland. Only if ye renounced nationalism though

Really? I wouldn't...

I'd rather let the country drown and move all the poles to invade Germany.

German provinces are much richer in tax and have more manpower anyway.