Altered Maps VII: Making the World a Better Place

[Gruekiller]

Since the US doesn't have a Pacific coastline in this timeline, Perry never reached Japan with his fleet. The US is simply too preoccupied with its many enemies in the Americas to give a thought to the Far East. Japan is industrializing slowly, but is still largely under a policy of isolation.

I suppose it's possible that some other Western country could have come along and done what the US did in OTL 1850s.

 

[Cull]

Japan-China.

If Japan was still under isolation, and experienced the Europeans(Opium Wars, burning of the Old Summer Palace, and all that), wouldn't they follow OTL and enter China as an imperialist? I don't think it matters if the US or some other country has barged in. The fact is that outsiders were occupying both Korea, and China, Japan's traditionals rivals.

 

[Gruekiller]

Not if the British, French, and Russians had anything to say about it. They weren't about to let Japan take any slice of such prime real estate.

 

[Cull]

And yet they did in OTL as far as I am aware.

 

[Gruekiller]

I'd have to look some more into 19th century Asia. I must profess my relative ignorance of that region during that timeframe. I could also make up a half-arsed excuse and say that perhaps a more cautious regime was in place in Japan at the time, which simply didn't want to cheese off any of the great powers gobbling up China.

 

[Cull]

I'm no expert at anything, but the Meji Revolution would make something like that impossible, and not having that is very weak, like you said. Keep in mind I"m thinking of after-opium war situation, as opposed to during or before that time. I was thinking your map was in the 1900s with the whole world war 1 comment at the end.

 

[Gruekiller]

1912, to be precise. But would the Meiji Revolution even take place with the relative lack of Western influence in this timeline?

 

[Cull]

Yes.

With the Europeans attempting to put into trade in the Far East region, there was not really a lack of influence.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Restoration

 

[Gruekiller]

Ah, I see. I'm open to changes to my alt-hist, by the way. I don't think Japan's introduction would have a terribly great influence on the most important events of the Great War, but certainly could later on. I'm going to base a post-war scenario on the probable outcome of this war, and maybe just keep going from there onward.

 

[say1988]

I suspect that the French would not have forced the Natives onto reservations, etc.

If there was ever a large migration, this (or somethingelse to clear them from the area that Europeans want) would likely occur. While the natives were generally more accepted in French colonies than the US, and later British Canada, French colonies relied on the natives bringing furs and other trade goods to them rather than going out to get them, as the British trade companies in Canada did. The French also had no self-supporting colonies (though Montral, Quebec and Trois Rivieres came close) and relied on native trade. With the influx of immigrants following the war, British Canada quickly became more self-sufficient.

This can also be seen in Ruperts Land under the HBC. Since natives were very much needed, they were a lot more accepted than in the Canadas (a man was not looked down upon for taking a native wife out there, though he was expected to leave her and any children behind when he left).

And without any influx of colonists, it is likely that large portions of that land would eventually fall to the US, much like Texas and California did, and as occurred resulting in the Seven Years' War and British control of eastern Louisiana and Canada.

 

[Gruekiller]

Interesting points, say1988. But it should be noted that there wasn't a PoD pertaining to the Seven Years' War in this timeline (which presumably went something like it did OTL), but rather the French bought out much of the territory. The Louisiana Purchase was later reclaimed by the French on flippant claims of the Purchase's illegality, leading to much of the resentment between the two countries in the "present". The other reason being an escalation of the "Quasi-War", which dragged on a bit longer than in OTL.

I should probably sum this entire situation up as "it's complicated".

 

[Omega124]

Britian shall previal. France has more allies, but Britian has better ones. Prussia is basiclly an army with a nation, America's army was at its highest point in the early 1900s, English Canadians will get their revolt on seeing a new war, Britian's China is surronded by allies, while France is surronded by enemies, Russia would have patriotism to retake the Motherland, plus many reserves, Brazil would have fevered nationalism and would be much more stable than the surronding nations and so on. The only place I can remotly see a French victory is in Africa, and even then.

 

[sophie]

It has more than one main PoD, which lends to this fairly unique situation in the year 1912 as the world's great powers descend into a world-wide conflict.

Wait, why would there be a PoD which sets things such that events are still according to OTL such that there can be multiple PoDs?

*A plague develops in Central America, to which the Native peoples are immune. Unfortunately for Hernan Cortes and his conquistadors, Europeans were not. The Spanish invasion was repelled by a combination of superior numbers and fatal disease, and the Aztecs quickly gained new technologies from Spain's enemy, England.

Something like this would require domesticated animals, which is where most of Europe's big plague diseases came from (such as smallpox). So what domesticated animals would they have in Central America?

*A freak storm destroys Nelson's fleet at Trafalgar, allowing a French attack on British soil. Portugal falls to France, and the invasion of Russia in 1812 achieves far greater success than it did in OTL. All of Russia west of the Urals is annexed by the French Empire. Most of Britain's posessions in North America, and a portion of India, are taken by the French in the absurdly lop-sided peace agreement.

Why would Spain lose out in Mexico, but things every else are sufficiently the same that Nelson would still be an admiral that fights a naval battle against the French at Trafalgar? Don't you think an extremely weakened Spain drastically change Europe...at all?

*Persia and Sweden join in to dismantle parts of imperial Russia, with Sweden seizing the Baltic states and with Persia capturing parts of the Caucasus and Turkestan. Though Sweden and Russia reconciled this incident (with Sweden leasing port access to the Russian navy), but relations with Persia remained strained.

See above. Arguably Sweden didn't actually become a large player until the Thirty Years' War, and who's to say the Thirty Years' War even happens with a debilitated Spain?

*The new nation of Gran Colombia achieves far greater internal unity, and remains a single nation and a regional power in the Americas. The nation of La Plata (after its viceroyal name Rio de la Plata) also gains its independence. Uruguay gains its independence, only to become a satellite state of France, and Paraguay's owing its independence to Colombia leads to a military alliance between the two.

If the Americas have technology and diseases of their own, why would Spain even be in South America?

*The Opium Wars take a further turn for the worst, and Britain and France become involved in a frantic land-grab, each seizing half of the nation. In the chaotic aftermath, Russia annexes Mongolia and northern China.

What do you mean by further turn for the worst?

Blue is the UK, Red is France, Green is countries allied to the UK, and orange is countries allied to France. Yellow is neutral. Who wins in my twisted, alternate WW1? Tell me what you think. You should operate under the assumption that most of the nations (except for perhaps the smaller ones and the ones in Asia) are fully industrialized.

Why would there even be a WW1? Much less one occurring in the same year as OTL. With a Europe this vastly different, why on Earth would conditions be exactly the same as it was in history? If you want your AH to be believable, you're going to have to go back, pick 1 PoD, and take into account the butterflies implicit on changing that event.

 

[Gruekiller]

I agree with Omega. Prussia and Russia are too proud to give an inch of ground to the French, and any invasion of the Amazon basin is doomed to failure. Great Britain's fate may be uncertain, though. Its main islands are perilously close to their much larger nemesis, and their colonies seem ready to at least suffer heavily at the hands of the faux-Central Powers.

And as for Owen Glyndwr... I don't really have an answer to that. This is really my first attempt at an alternate history. In any case though, as I've said, I was aiming more for an interesting scenario than a realistic one. I'll keep your advice in mind in the future.

 

[Omega124]

I agree with Omega. Prussia and Russia are too proud to give an inch of ground to the French, and any invasion of the Amazon basin is doomed to failure. Great Britain's fate may be uncertain, though. Its main islands are perilously close to their much larger nemesis, and their colonies seem ready to at least suffer heavily at the hands of the faux-Central Powers.

And as for Owen Glyndwr... I don't really have an answer to that. This is really my first attempt at an alternate history. In any case though, as I've said, I was aiming more for an interesting scenario than a realistic one. I'll keep your advice in mind in the future.

Well, remember that most of Canada is English. While Québec is most happy being with France, pretty much everywhere else would be pissed off, just like French Canada is today. A war between the two powers would most likely get them to wave the Union Jack. This, with American support, would kick the Frenchies out of Canada. And the rest of French America is just natives. Besides Little Bighorn, we massacared the natives. That only leaves the Aztecs left, and well, just listen to the second line of the Marine's Hymn. That gets rid of one freaking continiet. Asia's in the bag, as well. Again, Britain has more allies, the better China, I can most definitely see diplomats going to Japan and saying "Look at French Indochina. That's going to happen to you if you don't fight the Franks with us".

Secondly, Great Britain has the pond protecting them from France, and in between the pond is the traditionally strongest but most definitely even-now proudest navy in the world. Plus with the Germans and Russians, would France really have the manpower to invade their rivals? Meanwhile, Britain actually would, and we can see a repeat of the 100 Year's War, only with a British victory and Prussian (Or, I guess at this point, German) support.

 

[Dachs]

Hey Owen said more or less what I was going to say in his first sentence

isn't it usually the other way around

Cause, with the Hundred Years War already complicating the borders, this would make it worse, and he doesn't care enough to do that.

Fair enough.

Besides, even with the war going on, it was still considerably more unified in the 1420's than the HRE ever was.

Wrong. Check it out: the Ottonians. Hell, anything up to the Interregnum.

 

[TheLastOne36]

OTL means Our Time Line right?

That always confused me.

 

[Dachs]

Yes, it does.

 

[PiMan]

I'd always assumed Original Time Line. Not that it changes the meaning.

 

[Tee Kay]

Locations covered on the weather page of The Australian.