Alternate History NESes; Spout some ideas!

[das]

Perhaps a great mind or few was lost to us, and we will never know, unless das reveals everything that the polar bears tell him.

How many legionaries ever became important in culture or science? Ofcourse, one surviving legionary could make it as an emperor, but this will be a "tactical difference". Ofcourse, there's always the butterfly effect...

not nessacarily, the UK did not appreciate the South's slavery and with French inclinations towards enroaching on the Americas, the duo reasons could be more than enough to influence them to the Union side.

The UK was - slavery aside - rather similar to CSA. Your average Britishman was similar to your average Confederate - more similar then to an Unionist, anyway. Problem is, the British also were at the time in an uneasy alliance with France, mostly aimed against Russia. And Russia made no secret of its pro-USA sentiment. And you could imagine what did British think of that... Thus it was in Britain's best interests and not copmletely against their sentiments to save the CSA.

 

[Dachs]

About that slavery thing, has anyone read Michael Shaara's excellent piece of fiction, The Killer Angels? In said book, there is a character, Arthur Fremantle, of the Coldstream Guards, who is a military liaison to Longstreet's corps. He observes the conflict and seems very pro-Southern, and considers the South merely a transplanted version of England, with all of the English servants slaves in the South. He doesn't talk about slavery that much, and simply thinks that the South would reunite with England if they won the war.

England by no means would have come in on the Southern side immediately after either of Lee's "Northern Expeditions" in '62 and '63, but there was a chance of them coming in on the Confederacy's side if Lee won either of those, especially Antietam. More likely is a scenario where England brokers a peace between the two, with the assistance of France. Russia attempts to do something about it, but wouldn't do much of anything, considering their staggering losses in the Crimean War almost a decade ago. France, as something of the junior partner in Britain's Pax Britannia, would not have been able to exert enough influence with the Queen to force them to come in for the Union, anyway.

das is pretty much right on on this one.

 

[das]

It is indeed most likely that Britain would try to put diplomatic pressure on USA to stop the war IF it thinks that USA is likely to accept, i.e. was beaten up enough. It is doubtable that any "Trent Affair" could actually have caused British and French intervention. BUT if we suppose that it does...

And as for Russia - it will probably intervenne, but only if Britain and France actually attack USA. Hmm... Actually, Prussia's neutrality is not a given. What is a better opportunity to get a guaranteed ally in Russia AND to force France to acknowledge an united Germany (both being Bismarck's priorities) then on the second year of a Great War? The only weak point here is what to do with Britain, but if France and CSA are knocked out, then it probably would have to sign peace as well.

 

[Xen]

Britian wouldnt support the CSA; wasnt in its economic, or political interests to do so; cotton, the only export of value in the southern states, was of no concern to britian; India was now producing a ton of Cotton, and itfac,t it was in Britians best interests to see that the economic blockade of the Southern States continued, so that the Biriths indian cotton industry could monopolize the trade, without having to worry about any real compition; add this to the political distate of aiding a lsave owning nation, the other economic benifits of either reminign nuetral, or supporting the north, and thier is no case for Britian (or anyone really) helping the southern states.

 

[das]

No economic reasons, or not much, true. Quite enough of political reasons, though. If only because, already then many in Britain realized that USA was getitng very strong. An independant CSA would be of great use for the British, if only because it would draw much American attention to land military and countering CSA rather then the navy and countering Britain.

(Also, if there were no reasons for Britain to support the CSA... then why did Britain build ships for CSA in OTL?)

 

[Xen]

No economic reasons, or not much, true. Quite enough of political reasons, though. If only because, already then many in Britain realized that USA was getitng very strong. An independant CSA would be of great use for the British, if only because it would draw much American attention to land military and countering CSA rather then the navy and countering Britain.

The new world didnt matter much; aisde from procuring the assorted spots int he new world for ports, which it had before the war, Britian and US were allies in Monroe doctrine; theoretically, its that doctrine that actually kept Britian out of the war in the first place

(Also, if there were no reasons for Britain to support the CSA... then why did Britain build ships for CSA in OTL?)

simple. it was good buisness. Just the same as while charging the CSA money for ships that that American Navy was sure to take care of (and did take care of), they didnt actually want the CSA to win; lest its cotton industry begin to re-dominate the trade lanes

consider; Britian is actually in the bes tposition staying out of the war entirelly; It can do buisnuiss with both sides, without getting prejeduce from either (because its in a neutral position), And by staying out of the war, if the CSA was to win (which again, it woudl be against Britians best interests for it to do in the first place) it can begin with a good standing buisness relation ship; if the US wins, Britian is simply upholding the long standing Monroe doctrine, which Britian had a history of aiding the US to enforce anyway.

Germany, on the other hand, i think is actually a stronger candidate to want to CSA to win, but not in the bes tof positions to actually do anything; the US is an upcoming industrial power, in fact, and Germany by this time, has only recentlly over taken britian to become Europes leading industrialist; by beating up another industrilized power, it frees markets for german made goods, and German companies to profit.

 

[Azale]

but you like sleater-kinney....so conflicted....i think Ill go with xen on this one though

 

[Xen]

Corin is a cutie.

 

[Azale]

*sigh* ive got enough girls in my own school to obsess over

das, how many of the histories in this thread do you plan to make into nes'? like, which ones are your personal favorites...

 

[Xen]

as a side note, I've found out how Germany COULD have won the eastern front

 

[Communisto]

as a side note, I've found out how Germany COULD have won the eastern front

i KNEW it!

 

[das]

As for Britain and CSA - I don't think Britain COULD have intervenned on USA's side. I DO agree that the most likely outcome is the OTL one - Britain remaining neutral. I simply said that IF it were to actually get involved MILITARILLY (a very unlikely scenario, but...) that would probably be on CSA's side. If only because that was only likely to happen if CSA was doing very very well, while USA was refusing to negotiate.

Germany, on the other hand, i think is actually a stronger candidate to want to CSA to win, but not in the bes tof positions to actually do anything; the US is an upcoming industrial power, in fact, and Germany by this time, has only recentlly over taken britian to become Europes leading industrialist; by beating up another industrilized power, it frees markets for german made goods, and German companies to profit.

There was no Germany back then, there was Prussia, and it didn't have any fleet to speak of. But moving against France made sense - consider this, the evil French imperialists, led by a tyrant who is a nephew of a tyrant, are in Mexico and are defending the slaveowners against the good Americans, who are generally not too unsimilar from the Germans (protestants, industrial, etc)! Surely the French must be taught a lesson, and along the way shouldn't the Germany be united to make sure the French will next time think twice rather then try to interferre in other people's internal problems.

(Oh, and there's Russia, an important part of Bismarck's plans, sending a fleet on a good-will visit to USA, so why not show solidarity with them?)

das, how many of the histories in this thread do you plan to make into nes'? like, which ones are your personal favorites...

Well, you know that right now I won't do any of them. IMHO I'll just let other people start them all, while keeping my favorite althists secret until I want to start a NES on them.

As for the Eastern Front... Reminds me of one of Stalin's NESes. You know the one, where there were all those mechs and so on... (And also, that picture is overcirculated in the Russian part of the WWW...)

 

[Xen]

If Britian did get ionvooved militarilly it wouldnt have been on the souths side, it woudl have been on the norths, because ti was in the industrialized North where Britians made most fo thier profit from, and where Britian itself actually had more common points with in regards to national outlook (such as the slavery issues, and the issues of what to do in the industrlized world with the discontentented working classes of the day, and so on)

If France intervined, it would be on the souths side; the south had always since the time fo the American revolution itself, been biased towards France (more contact with them and so fouth) and It woudl make sense for France wanting to appease the major local power of the CSA and assure its new holdings wouldnt come under thier own Northern Agression- but its ONLY that fact, and not really the matter of culture which would have led to a French intervention; Germany still cant do much of anything, and if it could, it wouldnt be because the south was similer to Germany (and for note, the south wasnt industrialized) Having Germany move agianst the French becausew of the civlal war (when the perfectlly reasonable Franco-Prussian war is just on the horizon) seems silly. about the same as Italy going to war with Austria because Austria chooses to favor the south.

 

[silver 2039]

It's hard to make out but is that pic a helicopter?

 

[Xen]

this one?

see the starwars movie "the empire strikes back" (its the second one of the old orgional 3)

 

[silver 2039]

AT-AT!!!!! or AT-ST!!! That pic is fake right?

 

[erez87]

Ofcourse that it's not fake! Germany had huge Robots and was going to conquer the world!!

 

[North King]

AT-AT!!!!! or AT-ST!!! That pic is fake right?

Best. Quote. Of. The. Day.

 

[Communisto]

AT-AT!!!!! or AT-ST!!! That pic is fake right?

no, obviously hitler's secret clone armada was in reserve and prepared to hit stalingrad just as the rebels blew up his death star. pffft, fake picture

 

[silver 2039]

Hey I've always thought Germany strangely resembled The Empire. I'm sure that they have a couple Star Destroyers lieing around somewhere. Possibly on the dark side of the moon.