das
Regeneration In Process
After over a millenium they were, not at first.
Methinks that there will be the usual Turkish solution (i.e. that the Quran only forbids fig wine, and nothing else; in truth, that's quite true).
Alternate History Thread II...
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After over a millenium they were, not at first.
Methinks that there will be the usual Turkish solution (i.e. that the Quran only forbids fig wine, and nothing else; in truth, that's quite true).
North King
blech
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das said:
I'm not so certain of that... IIRC They were pretty catholic in only a few hundred years (after it was introduced, like in 300 or so)
Is that so?
das
Regeneration In Process
Depends on which interpretation of Quran you agree with. 
Drake Rlugia
....
Ho hum..I want to toss something out here and would like comments. I'm not so sure how it could be pulled off, but if it's possible, I think it'd create a neat, if not a bit weird world.
What if..there was no nationalism?
Modern nationalism, atleast. The Bismarck realpoltik, is probally the earliest form of nationalism we can identify with. The unification based on similar langauge, culture, and ethnicity. Before nationalism is probally "Patriotism" which was not "My country is the best" but rather "My country is MY country."
Patriotism is probally a reason large empires could survive, even with many different nationalities, because there was loyalty only at local levels, and then to the ruling dynasty, even in Britain, which had a democratic system. The Napoleonic wars are the reason Nationalism came to be a dominant force, which shattered the empires of the old ages.
Imagine..what would the world be like if that never occured?
That said, I might try to develop this idea, but it seems a little shaky. But interesting.
Any comments/suggestions?
What if..there was no nationalism?
Modern nationalism, atleast. The Bismarck realpoltik, is probally the earliest form of nationalism we can identify with. The unification based on similar langauge, culture, and ethnicity. Before nationalism is probally "Patriotism" which was not "My country is the best" but rather "My country is MY country."
Patriotism is probally a reason large empires could survive, even with many different nationalities, because there was loyalty only at local levels, and then to the ruling dynasty, even in Britain, which had a democratic system. The Napoleonic wars are the reason Nationalism came to be a dominant force, which shattered the empires of the old ages.
Imagine..what would the world be like if that never occured?
That said, I might try to develop this idea, but it seems a little shaky. But interesting.
Any comments/suggestions?
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
Drake Rlugia said:
Thats a big change, where were you thinking of having the PoD? The Peace of Westphalia? Napoleon as you mentioned? Addtional problems is Nationalism is a very seductive concept, and as technological advances 'shrink' the world it will cause the sense of 'local' to grow.
Drake Rlugia
....
I was thinking of the POD in 1776; Westphalia introduced the modern nation state, which I'd like to keep. The American revolution introduces a spark to nationalism, which the French revolution totally ignites. If the revolution is crushed, this going to set reaction into the world much earlier.
How to crush it? At Trenton and Saratoga. If these battles are lost, America will be put on the defensive, and any hope of foreign aid will shrink after Saratoga. Americans in Paris trying to garter support will end up snubbed at Versailles; and it's possible the Mississippi might be closed to the Americans by Spain.
No American revolution takes alot of spark out of the French. It will probally occur, but I doubt it'll try to introduce democracy. If anything, democratic systems aside from Britains may prove very shaky when local loyalities are held higher than national ones. If anything, a French revolution without the American will be little more than a peasant revolt. The Estates-General I doubt will be inspired to create the "Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen."
How to crush it? At Trenton and Saratoga. If these battles are lost, America will be put on the defensive, and any hope of foreign aid will shrink after Saratoga. Americans in Paris trying to garter support will end up snubbed at Versailles; and it's possible the Mississippi might be closed to the Americans by Spain.
No American revolution takes alot of spark out of the French. It will probally occur, but I doubt it'll try to introduce democracy. If anything, democratic systems aside from Britains may prove very shaky when local loyalities are held higher than national ones. If anything, a French revolution without the American will be little more than a peasant revolt. The Estates-General I doubt will be inspired to create the "Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen."
das
Regeneration In Process
Could you be more clear? You could, I suppose, remove the Age of Nationalism and alter the development of national identity; perhaps you mean something like what we had in the USSR ("the multi-national Soviet people")? I actually tried to set up a state based on the principle that you rather wrongly (IMHO) termed "patriotism" (but then, there are no closer terms for that in OTL, it would seem...) in DNES, with the ideology called "Imperialism", as in "imperial loyalty". If that is what you mean, IMHO what you really need is the existance of many STRONG multi-national empires - the ideology will be quite natural for them, and thus will emerge. Not sure about the exact PoD.
EDIT: But it definitely should be earlier than Saratoga. Btw, why should the defeat of an American revolution affect the development of French ideology? If anything, IMHO it allowed Lafayette and co vent out their anger against the old order by fighting the British and dying in large amounts in America, rather than outside of Bastille. On the other hand, no French involvement in America=better overall French economy, but not good enough to get France out of crisis... and then there are some old tensions with Britain. If anything, this seems to be more of a PoD for my "Bolshevikesque France" idea - after France gets beaten in another war with Britain, a revolution takes place, and...
EDIT: But it definitely should be earlier than Saratoga. Btw, why should the defeat of an American revolution affect the development of French ideology? If anything, IMHO it allowed Lafayette and co vent out their anger against the old order by fighting the British and dying in large amounts in America, rather than outside of Bastille. On the other hand, no French involvement in America=better overall French economy, but not good enough to get France out of crisis... and then there are some old tensions with Britain. If anything, this seems to be more of a PoD for my "Bolshevikesque France" idea - after France gets beaten in another war with Britain, a revolution takes place, and...
Insane_Panda
Deity
Update!!!!
tommy_toon
Emperor
I Concur!Insane_Panda said:
On another note, it is an interesting concept, no nationalism. Something pre-industrial age most likely I would think, as that's when I think nationalism started to come about in its move abvious forms.
das
Regeneration In Process
Nationalism STARTED to come about in the bloody Middle Ages, if not earlier - the so-called Age of Nationalism was merely the time when it rose to its peak and also became a quite popular ideology. That is exactly because of the nation-states, btw - IMHO you indeed should go for a different ending to the Thirty Years War, or maybe start even earlier, the goal is to have strong multi-ethnic empires (hmm... possibly a Slavic Empire (Russia or Poland), a Germannic Empire (the HRE?), a "Roman" Empire (France, most likely, but maybe Spain), and probably also Scandinavian, British and something in the Balkans, most probably the Ottomans).
Drake Rlugia
....
das said:
The "Imperialism" ideology you speak of is what I aim for.
As for Saratoga, like I said, it won't stop a revolution. You have to un-do all the policies of Louis XIV, XV, and XVI to do that. But the American revolution exported Republican ideals to France. Without those, it will be a much different revolt.
But starting from the thirty years would allow this world to be developed longer, and make it actually work. And you do know what you are doing das when it comes to these things, so I will take your advice.
As for the Thirty Years war, a different outcome. Perhaps the French fight with the Catholics, the Bohemian revolt succeeds..so many choices! I think I'll get started after a little bit of research.
Drake Rlugia
....
Well, I've plotted out the first..chapter I suppose of a "No Nationalism" alt-hist. Although nothing has really changed yet, it's really just spurting off what happened before hand, and really only deals with problems in Germany. Btw, I chose 1618 as the POD..although it most likely won't make any large impact until a few chapters in.
--
Prelude: The Sparks of war. -1618
Following 1555, the Peace of Augsburg was signed in Germany. Europe could breathe a sigh of relief. Yet still, it was an uneasy peace. Europe was still beset with religious violence. Germany was a tinder-box; it had Catholic and Protestant princes, all ruled by the Holy Roman Emperor, of the Habsburg family, fiercely Catholic and willing to do whatever possible to protect the true Christian faith. Many knew, deep down, that Augsburg's peace would not hold. Even though it had promoted tolerance and relieved undue tension on the empire, many Protestant sects, which were not Lutheran still found themselves seen as heretics.
It did not take much to destroy the fragile peace. After the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V died in 1558, there was no tolerant emperor to take his place, aside from the reign of Maximillian II. The remaining emperors however, were men that the struggling empire did not need. Ferdinand supported the Counter-reformation; Rudolf II reversed the peace Maximillian II had struggled to create; and Matthias found himself working both for and against his ailing brother to secure his own succession. Such workings did not put encouragement into the Ausburg system. If anything, Germany seemed likely to crumble with each passing day. But something was missing. A spark, if it could be called that, was needed to ignite the German lands into revolt. But would that ever happen? Or would Germany remain a divided house forever, ruled by princes of their own desires, taking orders from the Viennese court who knew nothing of them; not to mention that the Habsburg family it's self had it's own internal problems.
The spark came in 1618. Following the election of Ferdinand in 1617 as Crown-Prince of Bohemia, some members of the Bohemian aristocracy were basically in revolt. In 1617, Roman Catholic officials ordered the end to the building of Protestant chapels that were being built on land claimed by church. The Protestants, who claimed that it was royal, not Catholic Church, land, and thus available for their own use, interpreted this as a violation of the right of freedom of religious expression as granted in the Letter of Majesty issued by Emperor Rudolf II in 1609. They feared that the fiercely Catholic Ferdinand would revoke the Protestant rights altogether once he came to the throne. At Prague Castle on May 23, 1618, an assembly of Protestants (led by Count Thurn) tried two Imperial governors, Wilhelm Graf Slavata (1572 - 1652) and Jaroslav Borzita Graf von Martinicz (1582 - 1649), for violating the Letter of Majesty (Right of Freedom of Religion), found them guilty, and threw them, together with their scribe Philip Fabricius, out of the high castle windows, They fell some 15 m (50 ft), and they landed on a large pile of manure. They all survived.
The small scale revolt, that had began in Prague erupted into a full scale revolt, encompassing Bohemia, Silesia, Lusatia and Moravia, which was already riven by conflict between Catholics and Protestants..
--
Comments? Suggestions? I'm quite new to writing these, so it's weird sometimes, as I feel like I'm just spurting out facts and not drawing people in.
--
Prelude: The Sparks of war. -1618
Following 1555, the Peace of Augsburg was signed in Germany. Europe could breathe a sigh of relief. Yet still, it was an uneasy peace. Europe was still beset with religious violence. Germany was a tinder-box; it had Catholic and Protestant princes, all ruled by the Holy Roman Emperor, of the Habsburg family, fiercely Catholic and willing to do whatever possible to protect the true Christian faith. Many knew, deep down, that Augsburg's peace would not hold. Even though it had promoted tolerance and relieved undue tension on the empire, many Protestant sects, which were not Lutheran still found themselves seen as heretics.
It did not take much to destroy the fragile peace. After the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V died in 1558, there was no tolerant emperor to take his place, aside from the reign of Maximillian II. The remaining emperors however, were men that the struggling empire did not need. Ferdinand supported the Counter-reformation; Rudolf II reversed the peace Maximillian II had struggled to create; and Matthias found himself working both for and against his ailing brother to secure his own succession. Such workings did not put encouragement into the Ausburg system. If anything, Germany seemed likely to crumble with each passing day. But something was missing. A spark, if it could be called that, was needed to ignite the German lands into revolt. But would that ever happen? Or would Germany remain a divided house forever, ruled by princes of their own desires, taking orders from the Viennese court who knew nothing of them; not to mention that the Habsburg family it's self had it's own internal problems.
The spark came in 1618. Following the election of Ferdinand in 1617 as Crown-Prince of Bohemia, some members of the Bohemian aristocracy were basically in revolt. In 1617, Roman Catholic officials ordered the end to the building of Protestant chapels that were being built on land claimed by church. The Protestants, who claimed that it was royal, not Catholic Church, land, and thus available for their own use, interpreted this as a violation of the right of freedom of religious expression as granted in the Letter of Majesty issued by Emperor Rudolf II in 1609. They feared that the fiercely Catholic Ferdinand would revoke the Protestant rights altogether once he came to the throne. At Prague Castle on May 23, 1618, an assembly of Protestants (led by Count Thurn) tried two Imperial governors, Wilhelm Graf Slavata (1572 - 1652) and Jaroslav Borzita Graf von Martinicz (1582 - 1649), for violating the Letter of Majesty (Right of Freedom of Religion), found them guilty, and threw them, together with their scribe Philip Fabricius, out of the high castle windows, They fell some 15 m (50 ft), and they landed on a large pile of manure. They all survived.
The small scale revolt, that had began in Prague erupted into a full scale revolt, encompassing Bohemia, Silesia, Lusatia and Moravia, which was already riven by conflict between Catholics and Protestants..
--
Comments? Suggestions? I'm quite new to writing these, so it's weird sometimes, as I feel like I'm just spurting out facts and not drawing people in.
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
What exactly is the POD? I don't see a difference yet...
Drake Rlugia
....
That's because I've only posted the prelude..which is everything before the POD. Next chapter will deal with the changes.
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
Okay, that makes sense. Post the next chapter, then!
Drake Rlugia
....
*hasn't wrote it* 
I guess I'd better start, then. I may be able to get it up tonight..
I guess I'd better start, then. I may be able to get it up tonight..
Drake Rlugia
....
Don't find the tossing of Catholic officials into animal waste funny? Ah well. Anyways, I might finish it tonight. Depends. I have to cover about a decade, so..yeah.
das
Regeneration In Process
Um, no. The Enlightenment did so decades earlier (in fact, many of the ideals of the French Revolution were generated in France itself and LATER spread across the Western world, providing an ideological backing for the American Revolution), otherwise there wouldn't have been any French volunteers fighting alongside the Americans.
Fair enough a beginning, actually.
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