Alternate History Thread II...

[Swissempire]

Who ever wanted an ancient Alt-Hist, I wrote one about the premature fall of the Roman Empire and the Rise of the Carthaginians....

I'll find it, one sec..

 

[Swissempire]

The PoD is The Battle of Larinum during the 2nd Punic War. In this history, Cunctator Fabius decides to stick to his Fabian Stratgey and doesn't reinforce Minucius, who is defeated by Hannibal. This showed the Italian People under Romes protection they could no longer count on Romes protection, just as Hannibal had planned. They were quick to seek either independence or protection under the Carthagian Empire. This quickened the revolts in Sicily and the Macedonian pledge of alliance to Carthage. Hannibal would receive reinforcements and make his much awaited charge at Rome. The people panic and rioted, overthrowing Fabius and electing Quintus Caecilius Metellus and Publius Cornelius Scipio as Consuls. They quickly made peace with Carthage. A large indemnity was paid to The Carthagians, and the Romans were limited only to 10 ship. They were to have no army.

I'll include the intro incase you missed it.....

Intro

I'm going to be starting an alternate History. I will take it up to the 1800's. The PoD is The Battle of Larinum during the 2nd Punic War. In this history, Cunctator Fabius decides to stick to his Fabian Strategy and doesn't reinforce Minucius, who is defeated by Hannibal. This showed the Italian People under Romes protection they could no longer count on Romes protection, just as Hannibal had planned. They were quick to seek either independence or protection under the Carthagian Empire. This quickened the revolts in Sicily and the Macedonian pledge of alliance to Carthage. Hannibal would receive reinforcements and make his much awaited charge at Rome. The people panic and rioted, overthrowing Fabius and electing Quintus Caecilius Metellus and Publius Cornelius Scipio as Consuls. They quickly made peace with Carthage. A large indemnity was paid to The Carthagians, and the Romans were limited only to 10 ship. They were to have no army.

200 B.C.E to 100 B.C.E

Eurasia and North Africa

After winning the Second Punic War, Carthage found itself thrust into Empire. It reformed its Government, Granting Hannibal the title of Emperor, and having each colony run by a Chief Magistrate who reported to the Emperor. The government was further down run by Sofetim, who over saw cities and villages. With the new land Carthage had gained, it began to integrate the cultures fairly quickly. The language was integrated and influenced heavily by Greek and Latin, and would develop a language of Latinized Punic. The Religon of Tanit spread into Carthage’s Iberian and Italian colonies, as well as neighboring nations. Emperor Hannibal was a very smart very wise strategist. He began securing the Trading posts of Carthage and establishing cities there. By 196 B.C.E, Hannibal had secured cities and colonies as far south as Senegal. Hannibal’s brilliant domestic policies led to an economic boom the likes of which were never seen before. His reforms coupled with the indemnity from Rome and increased trade from the Empire brought a golden age to Carthage.

The Fall of Rome left a power vacuum that others were all too eager to fill. The total folding of the Roman Republic territories lead to the people rushing in. The Aquitaine Gaul tribes were slowly united by a Chieftain who stylized himself as Brennus II. By 190 B.C.E, most of Modern Aquitaine was united by Brennus II under the Kingdom of Gallia. The Carthaginians would settle most of the southern coastal areas. In Northern Italy, the Cisalpine Gauls had allied themselves with Carthage as did the rest of the Latin peninsula EXCEPT for the territory of Latium. Latium was divided into the city of Rome and a newly formed Latin League.

Phillip V of Macedonia is almost unchallenged in his conquests of Illyria and Hellas. By 196 B.C.E. Phillip V had secured almost all of Thrace, laying siege to the City State of Byzantium in 195 B.C.E and conquering it subsequently. Began consolidating and securing is empire afterwards, slowly picking off remaining city states.

In the Middle East, The Seleucid Empire fared badly. In 187 B.C.E, they were declared invaded by the Parthians and the Egyptians. Their was a fierce war that lasted until 175 B.C.E, with the Egyptians moving up to the borders of Judea, and with the Parthian Empire gaining most of their land. The Seleucids were relegated to modern Syria, and were subsequently conquered by Judea in 170 B.C.E.

During the fighting of the Mesopotamia War, The Jews united under a feisty Rabbi named Mattathias, who lead them to freedom. After Mattathias was killed, his son, Judah Maccabee, took over the fight, establishing the Kingdom of Judah and the Maccabee dynasty. He rebuilt the temple and conquered Syria and Jordan.

In 190 B.C.E and again in 180 B.C.E. Carthage declared war on The Massyli[1]. These conflicts would become known as the Massyli Wars. The first one ended in a stalemate with Carthage taking half of Massyli but being stopped by a Massyli force bolstered by Egyptian mercenaries. Then in 180 B.C.E, with Egypt distracted by the war with the Seleucid Empire, Hannibal launched an attack against Massyli. It was a brilliant Campaign, where he made use of every resource and used the wheel strategy. .Unfortunately this would be the last campaign for Hannibal, as he would die in 179 B.C.E, his brother Hasdrubal Barca taking his throne. Hasdrubal would spend the next five years reforming Carthage and expanding its colonies and contacts with the new Empires. Then in 174 B.C.E. the Romans would be so frustrated with the Gauls raiding them that Consul Scipio would raze an army and march to defeat them. This broke the Peace between Carthage and Rome, and Hasdrubal, eager to prove himself, routed Scipio’s small army and sacked Rome, salting the land and burning it to the ground. Rome would henceforth be a Carthaginian Colony.

Then in 163 B.C.E, an aging Hasdrubal wanted to have a legacy, so he amassed a large army of Carthaginian Infantry, Elephants and Mercenaries and attacked Egypt. Ptolemy VI Philometor was caught off guard and the Carthaginian armies got as far as Alexandria on the Delta. The battle and siege of Alexandria though, cost the Carthaginian Army heavily, and a peace with Egypt was drawn up soon after in 160 B.C.E. Then in 157 B.C.E, the Parthian Empire attacked Egypt’s Asia Minor territories. This led to Hasdrubal re-realizing his dreams of a Carthaginian Egypt, and in 156 B.C.E his armies invaded Europe. The 89 year old Emperor then died a month later. During the ascendancy of his son, Hannibal II who was already 55 years old, the Carthaginian armies stalled, Allowing Egypt to stop the Parthians at the Sinai. Peace was then signed between the two nations. The Carthaginians got their war machine up and running again and conquered Thebes and Giza in the next 2 years. After that, the Egyptian government surrendered in exchange for guarantees that they continue governing, under Carthaginian authority, parts of Egypt.

For the next five years, all was pretty quite, the Preliminary stages of Pax Tunisia. Then, in the Parthian Empire, all hell broke loose. The Parthian Empire was split in half by Zoroastrian Persian Rebels who called themselves the Sassinids. The Sassinid rebel was fought for 5 years until the Parthians gave up and let them be. In The Macedonian Empire, King Perseus passed away at 65, leaving a succession dispute between Andriscus and Perseus son Alexander. After a 2 year civil war, they made peace, with Alexander Perseus ruling Macedonia and Illyria and Thrace, and Andriscus starting the Anatolian Empire. But by 140 B.C.E the Eurasian world was settling down, rebuilding. The only major thing to happen for the next 20 years was the secession of the Transalpine Gauls from Gallia to form the Alpine Kingdom. This happened in 129 B.C.E. Then after that Pax Tunisia set back in, with the empires focused more inward than outward. But their peaceful lives would be shaken up in the years of 113 to 103 B.C.E when the Cimbri and the Teutons migrated south. The battles in Northern Europe raged, with Gallia, Alpine and Macedonia losing land to the barbarian invaders. By 103 they had set up Kingdoms. Europe once again was in a palpable tension.


Asia

In India, the Mauryan Empire was shrinking rapidly. Emperor Brihadrata knew he had to do something about it. So in 193 B.C.E, he began popularizing Yuddhayana Buddhism, or Sword Vehicle. This sect of Buddhism popularized Enlightment through Conquest, Peace through War. The 1st and 2nd precepts of Sila were altered to popularize conquest. The Kushtina form of meditation caught on, which was meditation through combat. This sect spread like wildfire among the former Hindus who longed for lost glory, and among the populace that was tired of living in a worn out empire. Emperor Brihadrata would proclaim this as the true Buddhism and mobilized his forces. By 179 B.C.E, Emperor Brihadrata had reclaimed all of the former Mauryan holdings as well as conquering the Tamil kingdoms. But then in Emperor Brihadrata moment of triumph, the Bactrian Empire launched a surprise attack. The Bactra-Maurya War went on for 6 years before the Mauryan Buddhists, tired of the bloodshed and war-weary, overthrew Emperor Brihadrata and put in his place a true Buddhist King. They made peace with the Bactrian’s, granting them the Indus River Valley in return for a promise not to ever again attack the Mauryan Empire. Yuddhayana Buddhism was outlawed, but not forgotten.

The Bactrian’s were glad for the peace as they had their hands full with Parthians and later the Sassinids. Once they grew their empire to the Indus, they were content, focusing on their Kingdom and surprisingly, embracing Hinduism. Many thousands of Hindus would migrate to Bactria over the next 50-60 years.

We see the Han dynasty emerge around this time. It is staunchly Confucian and continues to expand its empire. By the year 100 B.C.E., The Han dynasty controlled Min Yue, Korea and Mongolia and was making headway into Siam.

The rest of Africa
The Kingdom of Kush declared war on the Nubians around 170 B.C.E, and promptly defeated them. With Egypt focused on the Mediterranean, Kush could expand unhindered. Even setting up cities on the Red Sea around 140 B.C.E. Moroe continues to flourish under the Kushan rule. They would become a large Kingdom by 100 B.C.E, extending down the partial the Blue and White Niles.

To the South of Kush lay the Kingdom of Aksum, which by 100 B.C.E was trading heavily with Mauryan Empire, the Sassinids, and the Bactrian’s and the Carthaginians. They pretty much owned the horn of Africa. The rest of Africa was still tribal hunter gatherers.

The Americas

The Mayan Empire kept on chugging along, building infrastructure and temples. Establishing itself for centuries to come. The Anazai to the North have begun forming clay buildings and farming maize. They have a minor civilization, but great potential.
The Chibcha’s are flourishing in Columbia, slowly building up their civilization while fending off the Arawaks. Chavin’s demise has left a hole in the Peruvian Area that the Moche cannot hope to fill, but they tried to. Unfortunately for them, they declared war on the NASCAR, who promptly dispatched of them. The Nazca took over part of Peru and started where the Chavin left off. The Nazca would sweep down and conquer the fledgling Tiwanaku.



[1] OTL Numidia

Here you go. Its kinda bad, but oh well.

 

[Dachs]

@das and Thlayli: The main problem with that is that there was no "Demosthenes strategy". He wasn't an orator, but a general, and would not be able to stay in power long enough to make use of a strategy such as you say he would have: it would have fallen to Cleon, Alcibiades, or Nicias eventually, and Demosthenes would be forced into doing what those above him wished (although tactically, and somewhat strategically, he did what he believed necessary, within the parameters of his mission. His much-criticized Boeotian offensive of 424 was actually the brainchild of Cleon, with Demosthenes' input. Pylos-Sphacteria was more or less the result of an accident more than anything else, although it did fit nicely with Demosthenes' wishes.).

A more likely PoD is the oft-used Syracusan one: the hermai are never destroyed and defaced (it was the penguins' fault! ), and Alcibiades goes on the expedition and rapidly conquers Syracuse before the Spartans send their advisers and the whole thing goes down the toilet due to Nicias and the death of Lamachus.

 

[das]

Demosthenes himself doesn't matter at all, ofcourse - the important bit was that after Pericles' death, the Athenians commited to a more offensive strategy, a strategy that was much more viable than the defensive one because it utilized the Athenian naval power and allowed the Athenians to pick their own battles.

The problem with hermai thing is, IMHO, that they were merely an excuse - the Athenians were genuinely afraid of Alcibiades, and for a good reason too. He could've become the Athenian Caeser, or, in a rather more appropriate example, the Athenian Napoleon. Hmm... maybe if Athens is more hard-pressed, the Athenian leaders could've decided to have taken the risk of allowing Alcibiades to go ahead with his campaign unhindered, and consequently to pull a Brumaire. And then, as was already suggested by historians (and althistorians... I do believe Turtledove wrote something on the topic?), Alcibiades might go all the way to Persepolis.

 

[Dachs]

Well, only with the help of other generals. Alcibiades himself wasn't that good tactically, although his strategic concept was excellent. That's why they sent Lamachus with him. Nicias was along for the ride...

About the hermai: they were more of an excuse for Nicias and the other opponents of Alcibiades to corral him in Athens and keep him from going on the expedition; the people of the city wanted him to go and prove Athenian might. He was feared a bit, but not really in such a way to make the People want to take him down a notch at Athens' cost.

 

[das]

IMHO he was quite good a tactician as well. Besides, if he's the Athenian Napoleon, he will just as easily find an Athenian Bernadotte, an Athenian Murat, an Athenian Ney and all the other Athenian Marshalls of France.

I wasn't talking about the demos - it didn't really matter, only the finest examples thereof did.

 

[Dachs]

O. Well, I suppose he didn't do too badly at Cyzicus...so I suppose you could say he wasn't a half-bad general. He's better than Agis II, and probably could beat up any given Spartan mora. The satraps of western Anatolia and Ionia wouldn't be much of a problem, either. So it's not a question of skill but rather relative skill.

 

[das]

Well, Spartan commanders were quite good as well. But the Persian leaders as of the time, in their mass, were pathetic.

 

[Dachs]

I think that the Spartan level of training would, in a NES, be reflected as high "training" rather than high "military leadership". Agis II won the only major Spartan land battle at First Mantinea because of a Argive and allied failure to commit more troops, whereas the Spartan system of war basically guaranteed them most of or their entire Spartiate caste at the battle, especially because of its proximity. Later examination of his basic tactics shows that he's more of a mediocre practitioner of a slowly dying form of warfare, not a good all-around general that could improvise like Demosthenes (witness Olpae and Pylos-Sphacteria).

Plus, the loss of Brasidas in the north removed the best Spartan general, and Demosthenes' only real competitor. Alcibiades could have dealt with Agis by himself, probably...

The point is that Sparta probably had nice tactical control, but their grasp of the strategic picture was abysmal, and their only real strength was in tactical/operational-level maneuvers in the midst of battle, which no one else could do quite as well.

 

[das]

If Alcibiades unites Greece as I have suggested...

Spartan soldiers with Athenian generals!

 

[Dachs]

w00t! That would 0wn.

 

[North King]

If Alcibiades unites Greece as I have suggested...

Spartan soldiers with Athenian generals!

And Athenian fleets. And Athenian wealth. A bit of an unbalanced union.

 

[Dachs]

...and Athenian colonies to use as bases for Persian invasion...

 

[das]

And Athenian fleets. And Athenian wealth. A bit of an unbalanced union.

Who cares about the balance? "There's violence to be done!" (c) Monty Python. Anyway, ofcoruse Athens will be the hegemon power, because the union would emerge from its victory in the Peloponessian Wars. I suspect that Alcibiades' empire will fall apart just as Alexander's did, if not faster, but while he lives (and remains in power) he could leave quite a mark on the world's face...

If Thlayli doesn't want to develop the Alcibiades scenario, IMHO Dachs should - sans Xen he seems to be our best specialist on the Classical Age.

 

[Thlayli]

I'll leave it to the Greek. I have Oriental World to be working on anyways...

 

[Dachs]

The Greek? Having lived in Deutschland for about a third of my life, and having been born in Bayern, I am appalled!

Yeah, I'll do some work on an Alcibiades timeline, etc. It shouldn't be too hard to get it to fall apart...

 

[bombshoo]

heres an alt map I made...It kinda resembles alot of old ones, but I did it mostly out of boredom....If anyone wants to ever use it, just ask for some histories or make your own. I am never going to mod, and it seemed like alot of work for it to go to no use. I saved it as a GIF cause I didint feel like a long upload, so zoom in the most possible for a good look. Ask and I will send a better version. hehe I'm post #1337.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Cool map bombshoo.

 

[Dachs]

Nice. What, exactly, is the PoD?

 

[bombshoo]

Tamerlane choosing to pursue and wipe out the Ottomans, rather then changing course to China.