Oruc
Reactionary
he certainly wasnt the Caliph of Dar-Al-Islam either
Alternate History Thread II...
- Thread starter Xen
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Insane_Panda
Deity
I would like the Holy Roman Empire.
Wubba360
Emperor
I definatly want scandinavia: Kalmar Union for me
silver 2039
Deity
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- Jul 26, 2003
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- 16,208
Indeed he hasn't but I simply made a dire death threath to those who would seek to take that which is mine.
das
Regeneration In Process
Dis, I'm disappointed in you. I had thought you'd start it by the time I get back. 
Ah well, if you WILL start it, I extend a claim towards the Ottoman Empire.
Several lesser settlements on the island itself, so no.
Ah well, if you WILL start it, I extend a claim towards the Ottoman Empire.
Several lesser settlements on the island itself, so no.
das
Regeneration In Process
Whilst resting in Prague, I did not cease from althistorical activity. Apart from plotting some projects on which I intend to work now/one day, I had come up with some other curious scenarios, that I - or better yet someone else - will one day develop. They are written here in no particular order.
1) A Wittelsbach great power. I always pitied this particular dynasty. Which is possibly why in one of my althists they took over the medieval HRE, and in another - built a Burgundian kingdom (in OTL, they were thwarted by the eeeevil Hohenzollerns). But at one point, they had an opportunity to take over a great, though waning power - complete with colonies!
In this they were foiled by treachery within their ranks. No doubt bribed by penguins, Josef Ferdinand died in 1699. Had he lived, there wouldn't have been no War of Spanish Succession - or, at least, it would have been delayed.
The issue of Spanish Succession was more than just a casus belli. It was a geopolitical issue of cardinal importance. Though weakened, Spain was still very important, and could offer France or the Grand Alliance a decisive advantage for when they would clash next. If it were to fall to Phillip of Anjou - and especially if he were to receive France as well at a later point - France's hegemony would have been cemented, at the very least for a generation. The Grand Alliance, meanwhile, seeked to prevent this, but it was rather divided on this issue as well. The Austrian Habsburgs wanted Spain for themselves, and thus put forward the candidature of Erzherzog Karl VI. The other key member of the Grand Alliance - Orange Great Britain - was not as frightened by a potential Austro-Spanish alliance as by a Franco-Spanish one (after all, Austria was weaker, further and friendlier by far), yet it still sought balance of power in Europe and thus seeked to neutralize Spain. A compromise candidate was searched for and found in Bavaria. As such he was eventually approved by all the interested powers and by the present impotent king of Spain Carlos II the Bewitched. Then the candidate died, and the king died, and lots of soldiers died too. Oblivious to all this, in a parallel universe, King Jose Fernando I was crowned. This had important consequences for world history.
Well, first and foremost the War of Spanish Succession will not happen, or will be delayed. Assuming that Bavarian Wittelsbachs will die out near OTL, it will come in 1770s (then again, it is both more likely and more fun to assume that the descendants of the unhealthy Jose Fernando will become extinct by 1750). It is hard to say off-hand how will the European geopolitical situation change by then, though chances are, France will grow weaker, and Britain - stronger, as per the tendencies of the day. Then again, France will not suffer the crippling economical strain of the WoSS, and will have time to recove from the naval disaster at la Hogue. To better defend against France, the Anglo-Dutch union might become permanent...
The lack of a WoSS will lead to more intensive colonial development, as far as Britain, France and Spain go anyway. Without the Bourbon Family Compact, the Franco-Spanish colonial clashes will grow more intensive as well. On the other hand, without Queen Anne's War France will retain Acadia and Newfoundland, and it is likely to defeat all Spanish incursions.
In OTL WoSS foiled Peter I's plans for a renewed offensive of the anti-Turkish Holy Alliance, which Russia joined in 1686. Instead, he had to organize an anti-Swedish coalition, as the aforementioned alliance's leader, Austria, was otherwise-preoccupied. So: in this world the Great Northern War would also be postponed, lest Karl XII decide to attack the Holy Alliance while its not looking. But he might as easily waste away in wars with Hannover, Brandenburg and Denmark-Norway.
Assuming that our War of the Holy Alliance goes uninterrupted, from west to east its members will make the following gains: Spain, the Barbary Coast, Venice - Morea and some East Mediterranean islands, Austria - Banat, Serbia and Wallachia, Poland - Moldavia and Yedisan, Russia - Crimea. They won't finish off the Ottoman Empire, if anything this "rough treatment" may result in rejunivating reforms.
Sweden in this world has some real chances of surviving a great power - at least for much of the 18th century. This is bad news for Denmark and Russia - but very good for Turkey and France. The enemy of our enemy's friend is our friend, so Russia will join the Anglo-Austrian alliance system, as will Denmark and Venice. When the WoSS does come, it will be quite unpredictable, epic and far-flung - much moreso than the original...
2) German Civil War. The defeat of the Beerhouse Putsch was in many ways beneficial for Hitler - it allowed him to work out an ideology, taught him to be more cautious, at home anyway, and, most importantly... saved Germany.
Had the Putsch succeeded, the NSDAP-military coalition would've been put into an untenable position of power. French fear of resurgent German might was particularily high in these years, when Stressemann was yet to make an impression. Poland in the east would have been both alarmed and... interested, like it was interested in Russia a few years ago. And in Germany itself, while there wasn't a strong liberal movement, the same coalition that defeated the OTL Kapp Putsch will now form the core of the resistance movement. Hitler and Luddendorf would have had no time to crack down on them properly. Because France, Poland, Netherlands, Belgium and Denmark would immediately intervenne.
The Beerhouse government would have no allies abroad - it would be rightly considered a doomed cause, and not an awfully attractive one at that. The German military, even with the Freikorps attached, would still be awfully weak. Hitler would ofcourse try to mobilize the population, but it will be too late - the armoured French vanguard will already cross the Rhine and head for Hannover, while brave Polish cavalrymen would already engage in drunken orgies in Breslau - if not in Berlin.
Long story cut short, Hitler will be hanged and Germany will be occupied. The Freikorps will be crushed, as will overzealous and overopportunistic communists - Germany is not a very good place for guerrila warfare, apart from some rather obvious and easily-purified regions.
What then? Well... Germany won't get away scot-free this time. In fact, I doubt it will get away at all. Wilson isn't here, Lenin is THE ENEMYYYY, Britain will be given a fait accompli, and will have to go along lest it alienate all the Europeans.
The French won't let Saar go. Rhineland, after a particularily long Franco-Belgo-Dutch occupation will become an independent, but somewhat puppety republic - same with Bavaria (joined with the rest of the German south) after the Freikorps are crushed. Kohr may come to power there if he defects fast enough. Northwestern Germany as Hannover may be a republic or even a parliamentary monarchy; regardless it will have stronger ties with Britain.
But ofcourse no nation will benefit as much from all this as Poland. East Prussia, Pommerania, Silesia and maybe even Lusatia willl be annexed directly. In the rest of East Germany a puppet regime shall be set up. In the long term, playing the Red Menace card, Poland will be quite likely to take over Lithuania and Czechoslovakia ("uniting all the Western Slavs"). With Silesia and Czechia in its hands, Poland will get a strong industrial base outside of Soviet reach. Enough to build up a war machine.
Sometimes during the Thirties the great anti-Bolshevik crusade will commence. With Entente backing, Finnish, Polish, Romanian and maybe Turkish forces will cross the western Soviet border, while Japan will attack in the east. It will be a difficult struggle, but with luck... After all, the Soviet power wasn't properly consolidated yet, and the countryside was very hostile. Even in OTL the Poles made some good preparations for a new war with the Soviets. Pilsudski will enter Moscow on a white horse.
Karelia will be Finnish, along with Kola and Arkhangelsk. St. Petersburg will become a free city. Baltic states, Belarus, Smolensk region and Ukraine will be Polish, though a southwestern slice with Odessa will go to Romania. As the hegemon power of Eastern Europe, Poland will also get more puppets - Muscovy, or the remnants of European Russia, and a Kuban Cossack state, probably including more of southern Russia, including Astrakhan. Georgia will become a genuinely independent nation - well, okay, a buffer state, but still independent. Armenia will become Turkish - Aizerbadjan, a puppet state. The Far Eastern Republic will be ressurected as a Japanese puppet with bases; northern Karafuto will be annexed directly.
Soviet power will survive in Siberia and Central Asia, but I'm skeptical of its longevity. Even without foreign interference, the basmachi will rise again, while in Siberia, the west mayy fall to Muscovy or become a military dictatorship, while in the east, a radical republican Directory will rise to power under the banners of a revived eSeR and the old Siberian separatists...
Hitler and Stalin out of the picture is not a guarantee of world peace at all. This world will see war, and very big war at that. The revived Anglo-Japanese alliance will almost inevitably clash with USA, which will rally to its side... East Siberia and China. Not very impressive, but USA alone has vast resources and other advantages. It will also have the support of the various colonial separatist movements.
What about France? It may join either side, or remain neutral... or, especially if a dictatorial regime of any nature (for fun, let it be these very odd, left-wing French fascists, they haven't been done before I think; but really, a good old military junta or just about any strong government could do the trick) were to replace the degenerate late 3rd Republic, they could rampage through Europe and have an epic confrontation with the Polono-Italian axis.
Whether due to defeats at French hands or later domestic mismanagement, the multiethnic Polish empire will always have the possibility to go the way of Austria-Hungary. Such are the fates of Eastern Europe, I guess...
Btw, the Balkans. Whether as a part of the Franco-Polish War or as a separate conflict, Poland, Hungary, Italy, Bulgaria and Turkey will probably try and beat up Yugoslavia, Romania and Greece, possibly just after the crusade.
Speaking of Turkey, while wars rage in the oceans and in Europe, it will be able to restore its lost empire. And with luck, it may later persuade the French that they don't really need Syria - or USA to help coerce France. In the end, USA will probably have to try and vanquish the French empire as well (then again, will USA best its other enemies? I think so, but...)...
Decolonization will either be imposed by the triumphant Washington an thus go too fast (messy), or will not happen at all, as the great colonial powers in this world are not just going to roll over without a fight (also messy).
See? You don't really need Hitler to set the world aflame!
3) Evil (imperialistic) USA (silver will really love this - and so will Panda). This is somewhat underdeveloped, but meh, it is merely an idea list.
Let us make ACW longer and harder. Confederates win some battles, though not enough to win the war; Lincoln dies before the war is over as well, along with Seward and some others; later on, Confederates wage a very bitter, but unsuccessful guerrila campaign. In the end, South is in ruins, and North is in rage. The Reconstruction will be very different...
Furthermore, early into the war, when the Confederates were winning battle after battle, much fear existed of Anglo-French intervention. It didn't come, but relations were poisoned by this and by the various wartime incidents. The Americans were particularily embittered by the French conquest of Mexico. So when the Franco-Prussian War came, American armies crossed the Mexican border. The Franco-Habsburg forces were unable to put up a serious resistance; unfortunately, after the country was handed over to the friendly liberal government, a new civil war begun. Americans had to intervenne...
In the end, it was decided that the only way to preserve law and order in that hellhole Mexico is to impose a benevolent American military protectorate; with time, Hawaii, Haiti, Dominica and former Spanish colonies (Cuba, Puerto Rico, Phillipines) would also benefit from this. Later still protection will be extended to the states of Central America and Panama.
Animosity towards Britain and France lingered. USA's best ally would be another ascendant imperial power looking for a place under the sun - Germany.
Speaking of imperiality, domestically a new party came to dominate late 19th-early 20th century USA - the American Empire party (not sure about the name - any better ideas?). It could be described as National-Socialist, or better yet Imperial-Socialist; it was an unholy mixture of German militarism and British messianism. Not authoritarian, it believed in a strong government - and a strong military. It advertised social reforms to create a better America, and believed that this America should extend as far as possible, should carry its god-given burden and bring peace and prosperity to all. Whether they want that or not.
America was gradually molded towards this standard; meanwhile, crisis after crisis worsened relations with Britain, France and Japan. These three, and Russia, had banded together by 1905, when the Worldwar bre out over the Moroccan issue.
America, Venezuela, Brazil and Argentina quickly moved to secure the Western Hemisphere colonies of the Entente. Logistics and the brutal, indecisive naval battle at Halifax aside, it was comparatively quick and easy, and thus quite an exception from the prevailing tendencies.
Germany for instance fared much worse than was planned. Aside from the naval victory at Heligoland in 1906, things were quite rotten - the Schlieffen Plan failed pathetically, while Russians occupied Galicia and East Prussia. The Italian entry on the German side has helped distract the French, but insufficiently.
The American Pacific fleet crushed the combined Russo-Japanese one in the Strait of Formosa, but the conquest of Taiwan was disproportionately costly, while the attack on Hong Kong was defeated, though China eventually agreed to join the American war-effort, for all the good that done it.
But in the end, the Entente fleets were crushed; American "Irish Legions" entered Dublin; the Germans, though with many losses, had broken the French stalemate; in Russia, revolution had prevailed, and armistice was declared; beset by military defeats and economical collapse, Japan succumbed to revolution too.
So in 1908, a new world order was created. America took over Taiwan and Okinawa, whilst in Japan, after a quick, yet bloody civil war, a puppet junta took power in the name of the Emperor. Various British and French Pacific holdings were taken. Australia and New Zealand became free republics. Closer to home Canada sans Quebec was put under a protectorate; Carribean and Central America were all... American. So was the north of French Guinea. Venezuela took over British Guinea; Brazil took the south of the French. Argentina ofcourse took the Falklands.
Germany left some bases in France. Aside from that, it took over a variety of French, British and Belgian holdings in Africa; Morocco became a protectorate. Italy took Savoy, Nice, Corsica and Tunisia. Most of Russia remained as a left-wing republic, but the Ottomans took Kars, the Romanians - Bessarabia. German puppet states were set up in Finland, Livonia, Courland and Poland.
In Africa, Liberia - ITTL greatly propped up by USA and the Reich - gained numerous nearby territories such as Sierra Leone.
Britain retained some scattered holdings, losing even Ireland (but not Newfoundland, strangely enough). France kept only Algiers.
As usual, woe was to the vanquished. But the winners were at the same time battered - and hungry for more. This war certainly didn't end all war. Conflict was brewing in South America; China was in the throes of revolution; Austria-Hungary threatened to fall apart; the Balkans were also about to get worse. And amongst the vanquished revanchism already rose ofcourse.
4) Visigoth Empire. Again, its not awfully developed, but still. In 507, Clovis the Frank's victory march was cut short at Vouille, and so was his life; this victory was a pyrrhicc one for the Visigoths, but it still was a victory, which they so craved. With Burgundian and Ostrogoth help, the Franks were driven back across the Loire and raids that went further still contributed to the post-Clovisian chaos.
The Franks neutralized for a few decades at the very least, the great Ostrogoth Theodoric's master plan actually worked, as the defensive alliance network he had built now showed its efficiency. As time went on, it was joined by the Vandals and the newly-liberated Alemanni.
Unfortunately, Theodoric was but a mortal and died in 526. Meanwhile, Justinian took power in the Eastern Rome, against which the alliance was made in the first place. Having signed a hasty peace with Persia, Justinian dispatched Narses and Belisarius to reconquer the west. He overestimated Ostrogoth weakness, and so Narses was eventually defeated; but by then, having crushed the Vandals, Belisarius invaded Italy as well, linking up with the remnants of Narses' force and routing army after army. A huge Theodorician Alliance army was defeated at Ravenna, though the Byzantine losses were many as well. Anyway, Italy was retaken as well; later still, Burgundy followed. But the Byzantines outran themselves and were unable to crush the Visigoths. Time went on, and the Byzantine hold on their western territories loosened. In the east, war with Persia recommenced. Rebellions and barbarian attacks damaged the Empire as well. Meanwhile the Visigoths struggled through civil wars, reformed and even adopted Catholicism. In the early 7th Century, under Attala III the Great, the Visigoths went on a conquering spree; having previously captured Burgundy, they now invaded Italy and North Africa. Distracted by Slavic and Arabic attacks, the Byzantines were forceed to gradually surrender Mauritania, Numidia, Carthage, Italy and Sicily (the Visigoths built up a very good fleet). With the blessing of the captured Pope, Witisza II became the first Holy Roman Emperor in 688. He went on to conquer Bavaria and the Frankish realms. Plans for an invasion of former Britannia were scrapped due to the Arab attacks on Carthage and Sicily (ultimately defeated).
This HRE is likely to last comparatively long. Gradually it would feudalize, while several port cities - Venice, Carthage, etc - will obtain autonomy. Towards the 10th Century the Emperor will become but a figurehead - a puppet of the magnates. In that century the HRE, as all of Europe, will be tested by a new series of attacks. Vikings and Saxons will raid from the north, Slavic (and later Magyar) hordes will invade from the east and the new Egypt-based Tulunid Caliphate will commence a new offensive against Christendom. The various Viking states founded would prove short-lived, save for the Norman Empire in the northern half Gaul (and Kievan Rus). The Slavs would be unable to advance beyond Bavaria (where however they would dig in well). The Tulunids will not reign long within Carthage in Sicily, though in the east they would make serious gains against the Byzantines, taking over the Aegean and much of Anatolia. But the HRE would fall into anarchy, and after this brief renaissance a new Dark Age will arrive.
(One more noteworthy change - Islam's spread checked in the west, it will probably direct its efforts southwards speeding up the Islamization and development of East Africa).
5) And another non-German-ruled HRE - or, yet another doom of the Habsburgs. Strange, despite my sympathy for this dynasty I keep dooming it...
The Catholic Church knew no better guardians than the Habsburgs. Yet it - or at least the Pope - often repayed them with outrageous ingratitude. Had this ingratitude been a bit more consistant and ruthless, the Habsburgs might've become but a footnote after their brief Maximillianian ascendance. Had the Pope persuaded the Fuggers - bankers of not just the Habsburgs, but also of the Curia - to betray Karl V, he - Karl - would've lost the 1519 elections, and not just to anyone, but to his archnemesis - Francis I of France. Only the vast funds and crippling compromises save the Habsburgs in OTL, and even then it was an uncertain election. In this one, it will be indisputably French. The reason for Francis' popularity was very simple - he was indifferent and distant towards both issues tearing Germany apart - religion and imperial reform. So under Francis, the princes would gain de facto independence in exchange for military and financial support against the hated Habsburgs. Yay.
French forces will immediately invade Habsburg territories in Italy and Burgundy. With the help of the Empire, despite occasional stumbles they will come out victorious, taking city after city. Habsburg situation will be complicated by other events, too - without the Fuggers, the Habsburgs will have to levy much more money whenever they can, sparking off an earlier, fiercer Communeros rising in Castille. Likewise in Flanders, helping the French overrun the region. And meanwhile, the Ottomans will invade Hungary. After the Battle at Mohacs, not only Budapest, but also Vienna will be threatened by them, as in OTL. In this TL, however, both will fall - the Habsburgs will simply not have the forces to fight off the Ottomans, despite the logistical problems of the latter. The French from the west, the Turks from the east and the German princes all around them will terminate all the Habsburg possessions in the Empire. Karl V will fall in battle. His brother Ferdinand (who in OTL became Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand I) would then become the head of the House of Habsburg... and de facto, the king of Aragon and not much besides (in Castille, an urban oligarchy briefly consolidated power; meanwhile, in the West Indies, Hernan Cortez emerged supreme; as communications with the homeland broke down due to the civil war, he became de facto an absolute ruler of the West Indies and Mexico, ultimately creating the Mexican Empire).
In Aragon, the Habsburgs will probably be spared, though the French still will invade Navarre and Rousillon. But outside of it, their power will be overthrown for good, as a new world would firmly come into being.
But this new world's order would not last, ofcourse. The days of the "Second Charlemagne", Francis the Great will be a golden age, but golden ages are not forever. In the end, all things will return to chaos...
Under Henri II and his immediate descendants, France will move to enhance its power within the Holy Roman Empire and impose Catholicism - just like the Habsburgs did. This will lead to a civil war, as the Protestant princes in Germany and the Huguenots in France will rise up. After decades of grueling civil war and intervention, within France Proper and Italy the ultracatholic Guise Dynasty shall come to power and crack down even harder on the Protestants. But this will not bring peace - the Guises will fight virtually all their neighbours, Protestant and Catholic alike, barely maintaining their empire (but still losing portions of it). Impoverished and devastated, the French Holy Roman Empire will linger on into the 17th century, when a new round of wars will most probably destroy it.
England would be one of the leaders of the opposition to the Guises - and ultimately one of the winners from all this European strife. Remaining Catholic, but staying out of the Wars of Religion until later on, occasionally assisting various anti-French forces and propping up the allied kingdoms of the Netherlands and of Denmark-Norway, England shall primarily concentrate on uniting the British Isles and building a great colonial empire (presence pretty much everywhere, but especially in North America and Africa, with some trade outposts in the Carribean, South America and India) to match those of Mexico (encompassing the West Indies, the Greater Mesoamerica, Peru and later still numerous Pacific holdings) and Portugal (Carribean outposts, Brazil, and numerous coastal regions in Africa and India; Portugal, much like England, had benefited from staying out of all wars in Europe).
Another one of the powers that would oppose the Guises would be... Spain. Come to think of it, the Habsburgs would not do all that badly after all after the initial collapse - for Castille will be extremelly unstable, and after a few civil wars will easily accept Habsburg power. The French disturbances would allow the Spanish to retake southern Italy, Navarre and Roussilon, while a lesser colonial empire will be established, concentrating on Africa and South America (la Plata, Guyanna). Two other lesser colonial powers will arise as well, incidentally - Denmark-Norway, with outposts in North America, Africa and south India, and Netherlands, with North American, Carribean and African holdings.
Within Germany, the Holy Roman Empire would fall apart during the early parts of Wars of Religion, then would be briefly re-assembled under the Wettins of Upper Saxony, and later will fall apart again. Under the Guises, the west and the south, where Catholicism will hold out, will be reformed as vassals of the French HRE, while the Protestant center, north and east would form the Evangelic German League, dominated by Sweden as the strongest Protestant power left. The Swedes would not only succesfully attain and maintain independence from Denmark-Norway, but would conquer Skane, threaten Copenhagen and, by using Russo-Polish preoccupation elsewhere, would assume Baltic hegemony, capturing the lands of the obsolete Teutonic Order. But along the way the Swedes would make many enemies, and the 17th century might see a coalition fell them.
Russia and Poland-Lithuania would unite under Ivan IV. This will be brought about by an unprecedented threat to all of the Christendom right next door to both the Muscovites and the Poles, resulting in Ivan IV's election as King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania, as well as Tsar of Russia. This "Kiev Union" would be formed already when the aforementioned threat - the Ottoman Empire, which by then would digest Hungary, Austria (minus now-Bavarian Tyrolia), Bohemia and Moravia, shall go on to invade Galicia and Podolia. In an epic war, made worse by Swedish incursions and petty rivalries within the pan-Slavic empire, the Ottomans would capture Lvov and Krakow, decimate army after army, but be routed at the great battle at Kiev by Andrey Kourbsky, while an attempt to invade Muscovy Proper would fail due to overstrained supply routes and the harsh winter. Finally, the Ottomans would be driven back, but Podolia and Galicia would remain battlegrounds for the rest of the 16th century - the Eastern Reconquista, even with the assistance lended by the FHRE, will be far harder than the Spanish one.
In general, this is a rather grim and bloody world, which is what makes rattling good NESes.
1) A Wittelsbach great power. I always pitied this particular dynasty. Which is possibly why in one of my althists they took over the medieval HRE, and in another - built a Burgundian kingdom (in OTL, they were thwarted by the eeeevil Hohenzollerns). But at one point, they had an opportunity to take over a great, though waning power - complete with colonies!
In this they were foiled by treachery within their ranks. No doubt bribed by penguins, Josef Ferdinand died in 1699. Had he lived, there wouldn't have been no War of Spanish Succession - or, at least, it would have been delayed.
The issue of Spanish Succession was more than just a casus belli. It was a geopolitical issue of cardinal importance. Though weakened, Spain was still very important, and could offer France or the Grand Alliance a decisive advantage for when they would clash next. If it were to fall to Phillip of Anjou - and especially if he were to receive France as well at a later point - France's hegemony would have been cemented, at the very least for a generation. The Grand Alliance, meanwhile, seeked to prevent this, but it was rather divided on this issue as well. The Austrian Habsburgs wanted Spain for themselves, and thus put forward the candidature of Erzherzog Karl VI. The other key member of the Grand Alliance - Orange Great Britain - was not as frightened by a potential Austro-Spanish alliance as by a Franco-Spanish one (after all, Austria was weaker, further and friendlier by far), yet it still sought balance of power in Europe and thus seeked to neutralize Spain. A compromise candidate was searched for and found in Bavaria. As such he was eventually approved by all the interested powers and by the present impotent king of Spain Carlos II the Bewitched. Then the candidate died, and the king died, and lots of soldiers died too. Oblivious to all this, in a parallel universe, King Jose Fernando I was crowned. This had important consequences for world history.
Well, first and foremost the War of Spanish Succession will not happen, or will be delayed. Assuming that Bavarian Wittelsbachs will die out near OTL, it will come in 1770s (then again, it is both more likely and more fun to assume that the descendants of the unhealthy Jose Fernando will become extinct by 1750). It is hard to say off-hand how will the European geopolitical situation change by then, though chances are, France will grow weaker, and Britain - stronger, as per the tendencies of the day. Then again, France will not suffer the crippling economical strain of the WoSS, and will have time to recove from the naval disaster at la Hogue. To better defend against France, the Anglo-Dutch union might become permanent...
The lack of a WoSS will lead to more intensive colonial development, as far as Britain, France and Spain go anyway. Without the Bourbon Family Compact, the Franco-Spanish colonial clashes will grow more intensive as well. On the other hand, without Queen Anne's War France will retain Acadia and Newfoundland, and it is likely to defeat all Spanish incursions.
In OTL WoSS foiled Peter I's plans for a renewed offensive of the anti-Turkish Holy Alliance, which Russia joined in 1686. Instead, he had to organize an anti-Swedish coalition, as the aforementioned alliance's leader, Austria, was otherwise-preoccupied. So: in this world the Great Northern War would also be postponed, lest Karl XII decide to attack the Holy Alliance while its not looking. But he might as easily waste away in wars with Hannover, Brandenburg and Denmark-Norway.
Assuming that our War of the Holy Alliance goes uninterrupted, from west to east its members will make the following gains: Spain, the Barbary Coast, Venice - Morea and some East Mediterranean islands, Austria - Banat, Serbia and Wallachia, Poland - Moldavia and Yedisan, Russia - Crimea. They won't finish off the Ottoman Empire, if anything this "rough treatment" may result in rejunivating reforms.
Sweden in this world has some real chances of surviving a great power - at least for much of the 18th century. This is bad news for Denmark and Russia - but very good for Turkey and France. The enemy of our enemy's friend is our friend, so Russia will join the Anglo-Austrian alliance system, as will Denmark and Venice. When the WoSS does come, it will be quite unpredictable, epic and far-flung - much moreso than the original...
2) German Civil War. The defeat of the Beerhouse Putsch was in many ways beneficial for Hitler - it allowed him to work out an ideology, taught him to be more cautious, at home anyway, and, most importantly... saved Germany.
Had the Putsch succeeded, the NSDAP-military coalition would've been put into an untenable position of power. French fear of resurgent German might was particularily high in these years, when Stressemann was yet to make an impression. Poland in the east would have been both alarmed and... interested, like it was interested in Russia a few years ago. And in Germany itself, while there wasn't a strong liberal movement, the same coalition that defeated the OTL Kapp Putsch will now form the core of the resistance movement. Hitler and Luddendorf would have had no time to crack down on them properly. Because France, Poland, Netherlands, Belgium and Denmark would immediately intervenne.
The Beerhouse government would have no allies abroad - it would be rightly considered a doomed cause, and not an awfully attractive one at that. The German military, even with the Freikorps attached, would still be awfully weak. Hitler would ofcourse try to mobilize the population, but it will be too late - the armoured French vanguard will already cross the Rhine and head for Hannover, while brave Polish cavalrymen would already engage in drunken orgies in Breslau - if not in Berlin.
Long story cut short, Hitler will be hanged and Germany will be occupied. The Freikorps will be crushed, as will overzealous and overopportunistic communists - Germany is not a very good place for guerrila warfare, apart from some rather obvious and easily-purified regions.
What then? Well... Germany won't get away scot-free this time. In fact, I doubt it will get away at all. Wilson isn't here, Lenin is THE ENEMYYYY, Britain will be given a fait accompli, and will have to go along lest it alienate all the Europeans.
The French won't let Saar go. Rhineland, after a particularily long Franco-Belgo-Dutch occupation will become an independent, but somewhat puppety republic - same with Bavaria (joined with the rest of the German south) after the Freikorps are crushed. Kohr may come to power there if he defects fast enough. Northwestern Germany as Hannover may be a republic or even a parliamentary monarchy; regardless it will have stronger ties with Britain.
But ofcourse no nation will benefit as much from all this as Poland. East Prussia, Pommerania, Silesia and maybe even Lusatia willl be annexed directly. In the rest of East Germany a puppet regime shall be set up. In the long term, playing the Red Menace card, Poland will be quite likely to take over Lithuania and Czechoslovakia ("uniting all the Western Slavs"). With Silesia and Czechia in its hands, Poland will get a strong industrial base outside of Soviet reach. Enough to build up a war machine.
Sometimes during the Thirties the great anti-Bolshevik crusade will commence. With Entente backing, Finnish, Polish, Romanian and maybe Turkish forces will cross the western Soviet border, while Japan will attack in the east. It will be a difficult struggle, but with luck... After all, the Soviet power wasn't properly consolidated yet, and the countryside was very hostile. Even in OTL the Poles made some good preparations for a new war with the Soviets. Pilsudski will enter Moscow on a white horse.
Karelia will be Finnish, along with Kola and Arkhangelsk. St. Petersburg will become a free city. Baltic states, Belarus, Smolensk region and Ukraine will be Polish, though a southwestern slice with Odessa will go to Romania. As the hegemon power of Eastern Europe, Poland will also get more puppets - Muscovy, or the remnants of European Russia, and a Kuban Cossack state, probably including more of southern Russia, including Astrakhan. Georgia will become a genuinely independent nation - well, okay, a buffer state, but still independent. Armenia will become Turkish - Aizerbadjan, a puppet state. The Far Eastern Republic will be ressurected as a Japanese puppet with bases; northern Karafuto will be annexed directly.
Soviet power will survive in Siberia and Central Asia, but I'm skeptical of its longevity. Even without foreign interference, the basmachi will rise again, while in Siberia, the west mayy fall to Muscovy or become a military dictatorship, while in the east, a radical republican Directory will rise to power under the banners of a revived eSeR and the old Siberian separatists...
Hitler and Stalin out of the picture is not a guarantee of world peace at all. This world will see war, and very big war at that. The revived Anglo-Japanese alliance will almost inevitably clash with USA, which will rally to its side... East Siberia and China. Not very impressive, but USA alone has vast resources and other advantages. It will also have the support of the various colonial separatist movements.
What about France? It may join either side, or remain neutral... or, especially if a dictatorial regime of any nature (for fun, let it be these very odd, left-wing French fascists, they haven't been done before I think; but really, a good old military junta or just about any strong government could do the trick) were to replace the degenerate late 3rd Republic, they could rampage through Europe and have an epic confrontation with the Polono-Italian axis.
Whether due to defeats at French hands or later domestic mismanagement, the multiethnic Polish empire will always have the possibility to go the way of Austria-Hungary. Such are the fates of Eastern Europe, I guess...
Btw, the Balkans. Whether as a part of the Franco-Polish War or as a separate conflict, Poland, Hungary, Italy, Bulgaria and Turkey will probably try and beat up Yugoslavia, Romania and Greece, possibly just after the crusade.
Speaking of Turkey, while wars rage in the oceans and in Europe, it will be able to restore its lost empire. And with luck, it may later persuade the French that they don't really need Syria - or USA to help coerce France. In the end, USA will probably have to try and vanquish the French empire as well (then again, will USA best its other enemies? I think so, but...)...
Decolonization will either be imposed by the triumphant Washington an thus go too fast (messy), or will not happen at all, as the great colonial powers in this world are not just going to roll over without a fight (also messy).
See? You don't really need Hitler to set the world aflame!
3) Evil (imperialistic) USA (silver will really love this - and so will Panda). This is somewhat underdeveloped, but meh, it is merely an idea list.
Let us make ACW longer and harder. Confederates win some battles, though not enough to win the war; Lincoln dies before the war is over as well, along with Seward and some others; later on, Confederates wage a very bitter, but unsuccessful guerrila campaign. In the end, South is in ruins, and North is in rage. The Reconstruction will be very different...
Furthermore, early into the war, when the Confederates were winning battle after battle, much fear existed of Anglo-French intervention. It didn't come, but relations were poisoned by this and by the various wartime incidents. The Americans were particularily embittered by the French conquest of Mexico. So when the Franco-Prussian War came, American armies crossed the Mexican border. The Franco-Habsburg forces were unable to put up a serious resistance; unfortunately, after the country was handed over to the friendly liberal government, a new civil war begun. Americans had to intervenne...
In the end, it was decided that the only way to preserve law and order in that hellhole Mexico is to impose a benevolent American military protectorate; with time, Hawaii, Haiti, Dominica and former Spanish colonies (Cuba, Puerto Rico, Phillipines) would also benefit from this. Later still protection will be extended to the states of Central America and Panama.
Animosity towards Britain and France lingered. USA's best ally would be another ascendant imperial power looking for a place under the sun - Germany.
Speaking of imperiality, domestically a new party came to dominate late 19th-early 20th century USA - the American Empire party (not sure about the name - any better ideas?). It could be described as National-Socialist, or better yet Imperial-Socialist; it was an unholy mixture of German militarism and British messianism. Not authoritarian, it believed in a strong government - and a strong military. It advertised social reforms to create a better America, and believed that this America should extend as far as possible, should carry its god-given burden and bring peace and prosperity to all. Whether they want that or not.
America was gradually molded towards this standard; meanwhile, crisis after crisis worsened relations with Britain, France and Japan. These three, and Russia, had banded together by 1905, when the Worldwar bre out over the Moroccan issue.
America, Venezuela, Brazil and Argentina quickly moved to secure the Western Hemisphere colonies of the Entente. Logistics and the brutal, indecisive naval battle at Halifax aside, it was comparatively quick and easy, and thus quite an exception from the prevailing tendencies.
Germany for instance fared much worse than was planned. Aside from the naval victory at Heligoland in 1906, things were quite rotten - the Schlieffen Plan failed pathetically, while Russians occupied Galicia and East Prussia. The Italian entry on the German side has helped distract the French, but insufficiently.
The American Pacific fleet crushed the combined Russo-Japanese one in the Strait of Formosa, but the conquest of Taiwan was disproportionately costly, while the attack on Hong Kong was defeated, though China eventually agreed to join the American war-effort, for all the good that done it.
But in the end, the Entente fleets were crushed; American "Irish Legions" entered Dublin; the Germans, though with many losses, had broken the French stalemate; in Russia, revolution had prevailed, and armistice was declared; beset by military defeats and economical collapse, Japan succumbed to revolution too.
So in 1908, a new world order was created. America took over Taiwan and Okinawa, whilst in Japan, after a quick, yet bloody civil war, a puppet junta took power in the name of the Emperor. Various British and French Pacific holdings were taken. Australia and New Zealand became free republics. Closer to home Canada sans Quebec was put under a protectorate; Carribean and Central America were all... American. So was the north of French Guinea. Venezuela took over British Guinea; Brazil took the south of the French. Argentina ofcourse took the Falklands.
Germany left some bases in France. Aside from that, it took over a variety of French, British and Belgian holdings in Africa; Morocco became a protectorate. Italy took Savoy, Nice, Corsica and Tunisia. Most of Russia remained as a left-wing republic, but the Ottomans took Kars, the Romanians - Bessarabia. German puppet states were set up in Finland, Livonia, Courland and Poland.
In Africa, Liberia - ITTL greatly propped up by USA and the Reich - gained numerous nearby territories such as Sierra Leone.
Britain retained some scattered holdings, losing even Ireland (but not Newfoundland, strangely enough). France kept only Algiers.
As usual, woe was to the vanquished. But the winners were at the same time battered - and hungry for more. This war certainly didn't end all war. Conflict was brewing in South America; China was in the throes of revolution; Austria-Hungary threatened to fall apart; the Balkans were also about to get worse. And amongst the vanquished revanchism already rose ofcourse.
4) Visigoth Empire. Again, its not awfully developed, but still. In 507, Clovis the Frank's victory march was cut short at Vouille, and so was his life; this victory was a pyrrhicc one for the Visigoths, but it still was a victory, which they so craved. With Burgundian and Ostrogoth help, the Franks were driven back across the Loire and raids that went further still contributed to the post-Clovisian chaos.
The Franks neutralized for a few decades at the very least, the great Ostrogoth Theodoric's master plan actually worked, as the defensive alliance network he had built now showed its efficiency. As time went on, it was joined by the Vandals and the newly-liberated Alemanni.
Unfortunately, Theodoric was but a mortal and died in 526. Meanwhile, Justinian took power in the Eastern Rome, against which the alliance was made in the first place. Having signed a hasty peace with Persia, Justinian dispatched Narses and Belisarius to reconquer the west. He overestimated Ostrogoth weakness, and so Narses was eventually defeated; but by then, having crushed the Vandals, Belisarius invaded Italy as well, linking up with the remnants of Narses' force and routing army after army. A huge Theodorician Alliance army was defeated at Ravenna, though the Byzantine losses were many as well. Anyway, Italy was retaken as well; later still, Burgundy followed. But the Byzantines outran themselves and were unable to crush the Visigoths. Time went on, and the Byzantine hold on their western territories loosened. In the east, war with Persia recommenced. Rebellions and barbarian attacks damaged the Empire as well. Meanwhile the Visigoths struggled through civil wars, reformed and even adopted Catholicism. In the early 7th Century, under Attala III the Great, the Visigoths went on a conquering spree; having previously captured Burgundy, they now invaded Italy and North Africa. Distracted by Slavic and Arabic attacks, the Byzantines were forceed to gradually surrender Mauritania, Numidia, Carthage, Italy and Sicily (the Visigoths built up a very good fleet). With the blessing of the captured Pope, Witisza II became the first Holy Roman Emperor in 688. He went on to conquer Bavaria and the Frankish realms. Plans for an invasion of former Britannia were scrapped due to the Arab attacks on Carthage and Sicily (ultimately defeated).
This HRE is likely to last comparatively long. Gradually it would feudalize, while several port cities - Venice, Carthage, etc - will obtain autonomy. Towards the 10th Century the Emperor will become but a figurehead - a puppet of the magnates. In that century the HRE, as all of Europe, will be tested by a new series of attacks. Vikings and Saxons will raid from the north, Slavic (and later Magyar) hordes will invade from the east and the new Egypt-based Tulunid Caliphate will commence a new offensive against Christendom. The various Viking states founded would prove short-lived, save for the Norman Empire in the northern half Gaul (and Kievan Rus). The Slavs would be unable to advance beyond Bavaria (where however they would dig in well). The Tulunids will not reign long within Carthage in Sicily, though in the east they would make serious gains against the Byzantines, taking over the Aegean and much of Anatolia. But the HRE would fall into anarchy, and after this brief renaissance a new Dark Age will arrive.
(One more noteworthy change - Islam's spread checked in the west, it will probably direct its efforts southwards speeding up the Islamization and development of East Africa).
5) And another non-German-ruled HRE - or, yet another doom of the Habsburgs. Strange, despite my sympathy for this dynasty I keep dooming it...
The Catholic Church knew no better guardians than the Habsburgs. Yet it - or at least the Pope - often repayed them with outrageous ingratitude. Had this ingratitude been a bit more consistant and ruthless, the Habsburgs might've become but a footnote after their brief Maximillianian ascendance. Had the Pope persuaded the Fuggers - bankers of not just the Habsburgs, but also of the Curia - to betray Karl V, he - Karl - would've lost the 1519 elections, and not just to anyone, but to his archnemesis - Francis I of France. Only the vast funds and crippling compromises save the Habsburgs in OTL, and even then it was an uncertain election. In this one, it will be indisputably French. The reason for Francis' popularity was very simple - he was indifferent and distant towards both issues tearing Germany apart - religion and imperial reform. So under Francis, the princes would gain de facto independence in exchange for military and financial support against the hated Habsburgs. Yay.
French forces will immediately invade Habsburg territories in Italy and Burgundy. With the help of the Empire, despite occasional stumbles they will come out victorious, taking city after city. Habsburg situation will be complicated by other events, too - without the Fuggers, the Habsburgs will have to levy much more money whenever they can, sparking off an earlier, fiercer Communeros rising in Castille. Likewise in Flanders, helping the French overrun the region. And meanwhile, the Ottomans will invade Hungary. After the Battle at Mohacs, not only Budapest, but also Vienna will be threatened by them, as in OTL. In this TL, however, both will fall - the Habsburgs will simply not have the forces to fight off the Ottomans, despite the logistical problems of the latter. The French from the west, the Turks from the east and the German princes all around them will terminate all the Habsburg possessions in the Empire. Karl V will fall in battle. His brother Ferdinand (who in OTL became Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand I) would then become the head of the House of Habsburg... and de facto, the king of Aragon and not much besides (in Castille, an urban oligarchy briefly consolidated power; meanwhile, in the West Indies, Hernan Cortez emerged supreme; as communications with the homeland broke down due to the civil war, he became de facto an absolute ruler of the West Indies and Mexico, ultimately creating the Mexican Empire).
In Aragon, the Habsburgs will probably be spared, though the French still will invade Navarre and Rousillon. But outside of it, their power will be overthrown for good, as a new world would firmly come into being.
But this new world's order would not last, ofcourse. The days of the "Second Charlemagne", Francis the Great will be a golden age, but golden ages are not forever. In the end, all things will return to chaos...
Under Henri II and his immediate descendants, France will move to enhance its power within the Holy Roman Empire and impose Catholicism - just like the Habsburgs did. This will lead to a civil war, as the Protestant princes in Germany and the Huguenots in France will rise up. After decades of grueling civil war and intervention, within France Proper and Italy the ultracatholic Guise Dynasty shall come to power and crack down even harder on the Protestants. But this will not bring peace - the Guises will fight virtually all their neighbours, Protestant and Catholic alike, barely maintaining their empire (but still losing portions of it). Impoverished and devastated, the French Holy Roman Empire will linger on into the 17th century, when a new round of wars will most probably destroy it.
England would be one of the leaders of the opposition to the Guises - and ultimately one of the winners from all this European strife. Remaining Catholic, but staying out of the Wars of Religion until later on, occasionally assisting various anti-French forces and propping up the allied kingdoms of the Netherlands and of Denmark-Norway, England shall primarily concentrate on uniting the British Isles and building a great colonial empire (presence pretty much everywhere, but especially in North America and Africa, with some trade outposts in the Carribean, South America and India) to match those of Mexico (encompassing the West Indies, the Greater Mesoamerica, Peru and later still numerous Pacific holdings) and Portugal (Carribean outposts, Brazil, and numerous coastal regions in Africa and India; Portugal, much like England, had benefited from staying out of all wars in Europe).
Another one of the powers that would oppose the Guises would be... Spain. Come to think of it, the Habsburgs would not do all that badly after all after the initial collapse - for Castille will be extremelly unstable, and after a few civil wars will easily accept Habsburg power. The French disturbances would allow the Spanish to retake southern Italy, Navarre and Roussilon, while a lesser colonial empire will be established, concentrating on Africa and South America (la Plata, Guyanna). Two other lesser colonial powers will arise as well, incidentally - Denmark-Norway, with outposts in North America, Africa and south India, and Netherlands, with North American, Carribean and African holdings.
Within Germany, the Holy Roman Empire would fall apart during the early parts of Wars of Religion, then would be briefly re-assembled under the Wettins of Upper Saxony, and later will fall apart again. Under the Guises, the west and the south, where Catholicism will hold out, will be reformed as vassals of the French HRE, while the Protestant center, north and east would form the Evangelic German League, dominated by Sweden as the strongest Protestant power left. The Swedes would not only succesfully attain and maintain independence from Denmark-Norway, but would conquer Skane, threaten Copenhagen and, by using Russo-Polish preoccupation elsewhere, would assume Baltic hegemony, capturing the lands of the obsolete Teutonic Order. But along the way the Swedes would make many enemies, and the 17th century might see a coalition fell them.
Russia and Poland-Lithuania would unite under Ivan IV. This will be brought about by an unprecedented threat to all of the Christendom right next door to both the Muscovites and the Poles, resulting in Ivan IV's election as King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania, as well as Tsar of Russia. This "Kiev Union" would be formed already when the aforementioned threat - the Ottoman Empire, which by then would digest Hungary, Austria (minus now-Bavarian Tyrolia), Bohemia and Moravia, shall go on to invade Galicia and Podolia. In an epic war, made worse by Swedish incursions and petty rivalries within the pan-Slavic empire, the Ottomans would capture Lvov and Krakow, decimate army after army, but be routed at the great battle at Kiev by Andrey Kourbsky, while an attempt to invade Muscovy Proper would fail due to overstrained supply routes and the harsh winter. Finally, the Ottomans would be driven back, but Podolia and Galicia would remain battlegrounds for the rest of the 16th century - the Eastern Reconquista, even with the assistance lended by the FHRE, will be far harder than the Spanish one.
In general, this is a rather grim and bloody world, which is what makes rattling good NESes.
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
@ #3--Why not do Decades of Darkness instead?
Swissempire
Poet Jester
The American Empire one sounds amazing, would the person who writes it take it past WWII or up to it... or what?
And the Party should be the Destiny Party.
And the Party should be the Destiny Party.
das
Regeneration In Process
That was a bit of an inspiration, but I want more of a Theodore Roosevelt's vision taken to the extreme. This USA is not like the DoD one, despite some traits they have in common.
Symphony D.
Deity
Aside from the god-given part, these are my policies to a T. Should this ever come about I will fight to the death anyone who tries to take it before I do.
Insane_Panda
Deity
I, as das imagined, rather like the American Empire TL.
However, I believe that all of them are on the whole, quite good and very plausible. The Spanish succession ones and the Beer house putsch ones especially.
However, I believe that all of them are on the whole, quite good and very plausible. The Spanish succession ones and the Beer house putsch ones especially.
das
Regeneration In Process
It ofcourse is not very important anyway - late 19th century USA doesn't strike me as horribly clerical, "in God we trust" aside.
Glad you like it Panda. I'm very fond of the Beer House one myself, though it is in visible need of development. Then again, that leaves it quite free-form. Perhaps it might be best for a NES based on it to be started in the early 1940s, as tensions grow between Britain and USA, whilst the French Third Republic suffers a particularily severe political crisis (with numerous possible outcomes) and separatist movements begin to raise their heads in Polish East Europe...
Insane_Panda
Deity
Indeed. I don't think it needs a terrible amount of development. Simply write a more detailed back-story and give us what we love best, chaos.
The possibilities (for France, especially) are limitless!
silver 2039
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
- Messages
- 16,208
I stumbled on a really cool althist that I think I want to do:
http://alternia.forumup.com/about9-0.html
What do you think? Someone willing to make a map for me? Modern World.
http://alternia.forumup.com/about9-0.html
What do you think? Someone willing to make a map for me? Modern World.
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
das said:Dis, I'm disappointed in you. I had thought you'd start it by the time I get back.
Ah well, if you WILL start it, I extend a claim towards the Ottoman Empire.
Quiet you! My holiday proved somewhat more time consuming than expected - I'm still writing nation back grounds and tweaking my "discovery program"
Symphony D.
Deity
An interesting alternative to Ice-Belt World in terms of interesting geography: Tidally Locked World.
It would actually be even more extreme. When an object is tidally locked, one side of it always faces the object around which it orbits. On a planet like Earth, were such a thing to occur, the results would be... odd. One half of the planet would be cloaked in permanent darkness and ice. The other, depending on landmass distribution, would be permanently lit and would either be a scorching desert or a giant hemisphere consuming hurricane. In between these two opposites would be a belt in which a fairly "normal" zone would appear. A habitable one.
It'd be relatively easy to put humans on such a world without massive luck in evolution by having settlers from some vast interstellar empire settling on such a world, and either losing contact or having said empire collapse, resulting in technology eventually breaking down and a rather simplistic, far more primitive way of life appearing, similar say, to perhaps our own or earlier.
The dynamics of such a map would be... interesting, to say the least. Might have to work on that after doing some of those other projects.
It would actually be even more extreme. When an object is tidally locked, one side of it always faces the object around which it orbits. On a planet like Earth, were such a thing to occur, the results would be... odd. One half of the planet would be cloaked in permanent darkness and ice. The other, depending on landmass distribution, would be permanently lit and would either be a scorching desert or a giant hemisphere consuming hurricane. In between these two opposites would be a belt in which a fairly "normal" zone would appear. A habitable one.
It'd be relatively easy to put humans on such a world without massive luck in evolution by having settlers from some vast interstellar empire settling on such a world, and either losing contact or having said empire collapse, resulting in technology eventually breaking down and a rather simplistic, far more primitive way of life appearing, similar say, to perhaps our own or earlier.
The dynamics of such a map would be... interesting, to say the least. Might have to work on that after doing some of those other projects.
das
Regeneration In Process
silver, looks vaguely familiar. Ever been to the althist Wiki?
Curious idea again Symph. It would be really curious how things would develop there. If I understand it correctly, though, the warfare there might be rather boringly linear, with not much room for strategic or diplomatic maneuver.
Curious idea again Symph. It would be really curious how things would develop there. If I understand it correctly, though, the warfare there might be rather boringly linear, with not much room for strategic or diplomatic maneuver.
silver 2039
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
- Messages
- 16,208
Would someone please make this map for me?
World 2006
I've been desring a modern NES, with deadly, bio-engineered plauges for a while for some reason...and nuclear wepaons...ah yes nukes, and robots, and clones....without the restrictions OTL modern world. Finally I have found it.
World 2006
I've been desring a modern NES, with deadly, bio-engineered plauges for a while for some reason...and nuclear wepaons...ah yes nukes, and robots, and clones....without the restrictions OTL modern world. Finally I have found it.
Symphony D.
Deity
Depends on the technology level. If you had sufficient levels (today back through about, hrm, maybe 1910s would work) of equipment, it would potentially be possible to plot a shallow trajectory through either the "hot" or "cold" zones, utilizing electric temperature control to either cool or heat your forces accordingly.das said:
It'd be vaguely the equivilent of dropping troops out of orbit, given no one would be expecting attacks from such angles. presuming the "hot" side was mostly water, submarines might work too. Aircraft would also be incredibly important, as given one side is icy, and the other is blazing (and potentially spitting out vast quantities of rain), the habitable zone is likely to be incredibly boggy or marshy. Helicopters would be essential. This would add something of a mobility component.
It'd be difficult to get it to work but it would certainly be different, if it was done.
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