Alternate History Thread III

Why would it not? The slavery and southern worries of Northern Power would still be there. The war was earlier (due to the admittence of northern states in former British Canada) and longer (as the North had less of an inudstrial and manpower advantage, and France and Britain intervined on Confederate and Union sides respectively) but less intense. However the Union still won eventually due to its advantages.
Err, if Britain is vastly more powerful than France (and controls the seas), and the Union, as das intones, is vastly more powerful due to the absorption of Canada (vis-a-vis its OTL counterpart at the time), how does this prolong a war against weaker opponents? If anything such conflict should be sharper and faster, and perhaps bloodier. Particularly as there is no Mexican-American War producing great tactical leaders like Lee and so on who then go and defect to the South, which was their only real advantage; France will also be mostly bottled up in Europe by British seapower (and the two of them would mostly use it as an excuse for wars elsewhere like always), and although the Union will be weaker (by virtue of being earlier in time than the real war) so too will the South.

Without the possibility of having the western states, much less Texas, the South's position seems incredibly weak, even bolstered by France. If the allegiances were the other way around (England backing the South, France backing the North) I can see it being longer than the real thing but as you describe it, all the advantages are on the Anglo-Union side.
 
Err, if Britain is vastly more powerful than France (and controls the seas), and the Union, as das intones, is vastly more powerful due to the absorption of Canada (vis-a-vis its OTL counterpart at the time), how does this prolong a war against weaker opponents? If anything such conflict should be sharper and faster, and perhaps bloodier. Particularly as there is no Mexican-American War producing great tactical leaders like Lee and so on who then go and defect to the South, which was their only real advantage; France will also be mostly bottled up in Europe by British seapower (and the two of them would mostly use it as an excuse for wars elsewhere like always), and although the Union will be weaker (by virtue of being earlier in time than the real war) so too will the South.

Without the possibility of having the western states, much less Texas, the South's position seems incredibly weak, even bolstered by France. If the allegiances were the other way around (England backing the South, France backing the North) I can see it being longer than the real thing but as you describe it, all the advantages are on the Anglo-Union side.

I had forgotten about the leadership boost caused by the Mexican-American War, but my reasons for the longer war are thus;
Britain is not vastly more powerful than france as the economci recover and her huge population gives the french empire a great deal of power.
1) Ontario does not make the Union vastly more powerful right away, as its quite sparesly populated (and even more so after the loyalists leave), and the greater space spreads the northern populations out more leading to somewhat slower/more expensive industrialisation.
2) The Souths rebellion starts off smaller, but earlier (due to fears of the potential and increasing political power of the north), the north doesn't quite know how to react and communications are slower "The South has no right to secede, but I have no power to prevent them." and the union dithers for some time, lacking the will to really do anything.
3)This gives a more prepared South and one with considerable French interest (see the possibility for a weaker north america, and a possible complient cotton/agrian producer as a counterbalance to british india).
4) Its only when more states attempt to join the confederacy that the actual active proportion of the war starts, the union has less industrial advantage but the souths population is smaller.
5)Then France enters the war, providing support to the south, and forceing the Union to fight a multi front war (as french sea power is greate rthan american, though less than british) with a suprise attack and burning of Washington, and reaching out of Quebec. This leads to a tough war for the Union as the forces are now rather balanced, and their industrial core is under direct threat.
6)Eventually Britain, more out of opposition to France than anything else, allies with the Union and moves in to clear the east coast of french ships (before now american hostility had kept the royal navy out of this region - without canada why should they bother?) and enforces a blockade on the south.
7)War then ends as per usual with the Union eventually overpowering the south, perhaps with some British forces on the south coast.
 
Britain is not vastly more powerful than france as the economci recover and her huge population gives the french empire a great deal of power.
When you are launching a cross-ocean war, seapower is the only power that matters. In that regard, Britain is vastly more powerful, and the continent is France's cage.

Why would people go North when they can still go West? Frozen coniferous forest and tundra isn't very attractive; there's a reason the United States got most of the immigrants and its population is over ten times as large as Canada's. It makes it more powerful by being an additional at all; greater sum of parts. But just because it's there doesn't mean people will want to live there.

That would depend entirely upon the President and Congress at the time, and I doubt either, unless being particularly incompetent, would sit idly by on the question of letting a third of the country willing leave. If it's sufficiently early that the Federalists still maintain any credibility at all, they certainly won't.

Compliant isn't the same thing as "owned". The only thing it does is give them an alternative source; which they have anyway regardless of who wins or loses the war. Don't see how points 1 or 2 cause greater interest on the part of the French anyway; they cannot expand their dominion over the East Coast or Interior (America will just fight to the death most likely) and at most get Canada, which again is not worth all that much on its own, and worth nothing at all in terms of cash crops. They'd have as much luck trying to turn America against the British by supporting them against the South, particularly as they can't realistically expand claims in Quebec.

Without Texas, or the issue of the Kansas-Nebraska Act, or Dred Scott, or Lincoln's polarizing election, or all the other various factors that are eliminated by starting the war earlier, and the lack of gains from the Mexican-American War, the South's potential pool of membership is dramatically smaller and weaker, as many "frontline" states are likely not to go along with secession, possibly out of fear, possibly out of lack of perceived need.

Quebec is a bad place to launch an attack from. See the battles on Lake Champlain during the Revolutionary War and War of 1812. The georgraphy of the region is not condusive to such actions and holds several bottlenecks, and getting to anything of value, like Boston, New York, Pittsburg, Philadelphia, or Chicago, would take rather some effort. For France to get much anything out of it, realistically, would require American loses to be so catastrophic as to practically lose the war. They know the terrain better and have fought the same battles before, particularly if Winfield Scott is still around and in fighting shape (which he would be if the war was fought earlier).

The idea of the Americans losing Washington--again (since there is no indication of the War of 1812 not having happened)--also seems sort of silly.

6)Eventually Britain, more out of opposition to France than anything else, allies with the Union and moves in to clear the east coast of french ships (before now american hostility had kept the royal navy out of this region - without canada why should they bother?) and enforces a blockade on the south.
Britain doesn't take the opportunity to immediately use France's distraction to snap up colonies elsewhere, leading to a common cause with the Americans to be realized later why? France doesn't exercise more caution at this very distinct possibility why?

7) War then ends as per usual with the Union eventually overpowering the south, perhaps with some British forces on the south coast.
As soon as British seapower enters the equation French seapower becomes irrelevent, because the two will immediately shift to focusing on one another and their colonies as they always do. Under such a circumstance this South has nothing to sustain it. The Union does not even particularly need overwhelming force because the one thing that countered that for the real South--tactical ingenuity--is no longer present. Commanders would be on a roughly equal plane, and the South would fold like a house of cards, particularly with Union and British seapower. With reinforcements cut off I don't see how French Quebec (assuming here it stayed French and became independent later) could survive--or would be allowed to survive in any ensuing engagements or concluding peace treaty. The Americans would likely demand its surrender, the British wouldn't care, not having possessions in North America, and France wouldn't have much option, having lost their ally and the position being totally cut off by Anglo-American naval dominance.

Again, I don't see this playing out badly for the Union unless you are assuming gross incompetence and terribly bad luck.
 
I am interested in either France, or Britain or any of the Great Powers

Are you keeping with the thing you said about giving prefrence to those players in your former nes Harq?
 
Just make sure you post a link here so I dont miss it....
 
Dis, The Oceanic Empire with the New Zealand Capital is mine.
 
@Symphony D: Yikes, hoped against such a strong dissection ;), would you be interested in playing by any chance?

Spoiler Attempted Point-Counterpointing with Symph :

When you are launching a cross-ocean war, seapower is the only power that matters. In that regard, Britain is vastly more powerful, and the continent is France's cage.

Perhaps the French underestimated the Unions resolve and power and thought the build up they had prepared would be enough to force the issue? Also once the British do go to work Frances seapower is lost, its only in the time before that it matters. Besides the French Empire would continously try to test British Naval power.

Why would people go North when they can still go West? Frozen coniferous forest and tundra isn't very attractive; there's a reason the United States got most of the immigrants and its population is over ten times as large as Canada's. It makes it more powerful by being an additional at all; greater sum of parts. But just because it's there doesn't mean people will want to live there.

Right, well I'd say at this point the union would be more power, but not "vastly". Agree on settlement patterns, this would lead to a less populated Canada over all (as a good chunk of Canadian immigrationw as due to people who didn't want to go to the US)

That would depend entirely upon the President and Congress at the time, and I doubt either, unless being particularly incompetent, would sit idly by on the question of letting a third of the country willing leave. If it's sufficiently early that the Federalists still maintain any credibility at all, they certainly won't.

Easy way out: Harrison (now a greater war hero) elected again, dies at the crucial time (as he'll be getting on a bit) ;).
Harder way out: Its post Federalist collapse, the issue would be hotly debated and ther would be attempts at negociation like in the OTL wouldn't there?

Compliant isn't the same thing as "owned". The only thing it does is give them an alternative source; which they have anyway regardless of who wins or loses the war. Don't see how points 1 or 2 cause greater interest on the part of the French anyway; they cannot expand their dominion over the East Coast or Interior (America will just fight to the death most likely) and at most get Canada, which again is not worth all that much on its own, and worth nothing at all in terms of cash crops. They'd have as much luck trying to turn America against the British by supporting them against the South, particularly as they can't realistically expand claims in Quebec.

Compliant South giving them aid in the Caribbean/Mexico? Wish to reinvoke the continential system with the assured imports ([French thinking]as without french support how long would it be before the union takes the south back? So they'll stay loyal - see Duchy of Warsaw[/French thinking])?

Without Texas, or the issue of the Kansas-Nebraska Act, or Dred Scott, or Lincoln's polarizing election, or all the other various factors that are eliminated by starting the war earlier, and the lack of gains from the Mexican-American War, the South's potential pool of membership is dramatically smaller and weaker, as many "frontline" states are likely not to go along with secession, possibly out of fear, possibly out of lack of perceived need.

Some other issue was more decisive; perhaps/partly the 'American System", with Ontario there would be more pro-industry measures and it might last longer. and/or the desired war with Mexico for land which was disapproved of in the North (much weaker American presense in Texas due to ATL reasons). I agree with the Souths smaller pool of membership.

Quebec is a bad place to launch an attack from. See the battles on Lake Champlain during the Revolutionary War and War of 1812. The georgraphy of the region is not condusive to such actions and holds several bottlenecks, and getting to anything of value, like Boston, New York, Pittsburg, Philadelphia, or Chicago, would take rather some effort. For France to get much anything out of it, realistically, would require American loses to be so catastrophic as to practically lose the war. They know the terrain better and have fought the same battles before, particularly if Winfield Scott is still around and in fighting shape (which he would be if the war was fought earlier).

Those are good points and I admit I hadn't considered them in the broad sweep of things, but a hostile Quebec would a) have cut access to the atlantic from the great lakes beign economically and strategically damaging to the Union and b) The potential for attacks would have made redeployment north necessary, slowing southern advances.

The idea of the Americans losing Washington--again (since there is no indication of the War of 1812 not having happened)--also seems sort of silly.

The war of 1812 still happened, the British were tied down in Europe longer, and the Americans eventually wore upper Canada down, there was no burning of Washington.

Britain doesn't take the opportunity to immediately use France's distraction to snap up colonies elsewhere, leading to a common cause with the Americans to be realized later why? France doesn't exercise more caution at this very distinct possibility why?

Again yes, thats what I'd project happening - Britain graps a few colonies and then overcomes its hostilites to the US (after the bad blood of the 1812 war)...after some time.

As soon as British seapower enters the equation French seapower becomes irrelevent, because the two will immediately shift to focusing on one another and their colonies as they always do. Under such a circumstance this South has nothing to sustain it. The Union does not even particularly need overwhelming force because the one thing that countered that for the real South--tactical ingenuity--is no longer present. Commanders would be on a roughly equal plane, and the South would fold like a house of cards, particularly with Union and British seapower.

Uhh...yes? Thats what I said would/did happen.

With reinforcements cut off I don't see how French Quebec (assuming here it stayed French and became independent later) could survive--or would be allowed to survive in any ensuing engagements or concluding peace treaty. The Americans would likely demand its surrender, the British wouldn't care, not having possessions in North America, and France wouldn't have much option, having lost their ally and the position being totally cut off by Anglo-American naval dominance.

Quebec was well defended, would have been a tough nut to crack, the French get its continued independence in return for a exit from the war? The Americans possibly demand a demilitarization or something, as they don't want it that much (a) not particularly worthwhile, b) Full of Frenchmen)?

Again, I don't see this playing out badly for the Union unless you are assuming gross incompetence and terribly bad luck.

Yep, well depending on your definition of 'badly', I never said the war was worse on the union, just longer. Also you say this with the Union winning in the ATL but don't protest the numerious timelines that have a southern victory? ;)

@Swiss, didn't you see the note that the NZ capital was a mistake? That's rather obviously a British Dominon, not an Empire, as well ;)
 
Since you seem dead-set on keeping the scenario I won't argue it much more, I just find it unlikely it would take longer at all. I'll hit the major points that I don't think can be explained by any timeline divergences:

Those are good points and I admit I hadn't considered them in the broad sweep of things, but a hostile Quebec would a) have cut access to the atlantic from the great lakes beign economically and strategically damaging to the Union and b) The potential for attacks would have made redeployment north necessary, slowing southern advances.
Quebec doesn't matter one bit for the economy. That's why they built the Erie Canal. Americans can also redeploy ships (or rapidly construct them) on the Great Lakes and Champlain in a manner similar to the War of 1812 and French Quebec can provide little counter or at best perhaps match them, leading to a stalemate. All the routes are plugged, all you need is some large garrisons in existing strongpoints (like Detroit, Fort Ticonderoga, and West Point). Aforementioned Winfield Scott would perhaps be the leader of this, and having much more practice at it, and the French having none, I do not see them presenting much of a credible threat from the North.

as they don't want it that much (a) not particularly worthwhile, b) Full of Frenchmen)?
It's in the way, presents a (now known and verfiable threat), and that's never stopped them before (see again Mexico, which for all the white settlers, had a lot of Mexicans in its northern areas). Plus if the South collapses as rapidly as it does, and Anglo-American seapower cuts France off, why would anybody care if France exited the war or not? Americans kill the South, hammer away at Quebec, and Britain continues plucking up colonies; France is isolated and can do little to stop them. France can do little to stop them anyway, so I don't see them making concessions when they can go for the whole enchilada.

Also you say this with the Union winning in the ATL but don't protest the numerious timelines that have a southern victory?
The concept generally betrays a lack of a grasp on history, so why bother? ;)

would you be interested in playing by any chance?
Only if there is some kind of guarantee this won't be the third strike with no explanation. :p
 
Harleqin: Withdrawing as USA. Put me down for Argentina.
Dis: You will do that timeline, faults though it may have. I also formally call the US, and will kill whoever gets in my way.
 
Anyone ever thought of doing a fantasy-real world mix NES. Like maybe an ancient age one were The Gods are real and gaining their favor can lead to benifits or various mythological creatures are real and can be put in armies.

You could maybe even have mythological powers Atanlatis, Lemuria, El Dorado, Thule, Shangri-La, Troy.

Depending on the date something entirley different. With Dragons, Unicorns and such, and nations like Arthurian Britian.

OR even take it up another notch and mix an ancient mythological kind of world with an industrialized (maybe steampunk?) one. Kind of like a Pagan Sparta, Carthrage, Celts and others weilding Minotaurs with rifles or something..

I realize its a bit corny, but just looking for new or underused ideas...
 
Harleqin: Withdrawing as USA. Put me down for Argentina.
Dis: You will do that timeline, faults though it may have. I also formally call the US, and will kill whoever gets in my way.

USA would be nice.... hint.
 
Anyone ever thought of doing a fantasy-real world mix NES.

Not sure if its on-topic, but it certainly is an idea, if not an original one. Now, to make it original, how about a 16th century fantasy NES? I mean, with gunpowder, the colonism and the Reformation - but also with Da Vinci machines, golems, alchemistry, Satan, shamans in the New World... and best of all, Kaiser Rudolf II (Wikipedia: "Rudolf II was one of the most eccentric European monarchs of that or any other period. He kept a menagerie of exotic animals and was a great lover of art and architecture, surrounding himself with artists such as the mannerist Bartholomeus Spranger and the fantastical Giuseppe Arcimboldo. He was also fascinated with the sciences, and both Tycho Brahe and Johannes Kepler attended his court, as well as the alchemists Edward Kelley and John Dee. Rudolf gave Prague a mystical reputation that persists in part to this day, with Alchemists' Alley in the grounds of Prague Castle a popular visiting place. He is closely associated with the legend of the Golem, having met the Maharal, Rabbi Loew. Such was Rudolf's reputation that it was rumoured he collected dwarfs and employed a regiment of giants in his army."). The alchemistry aspect alone would be worth it, if properly researched and carried out.

Right-o Sheep, though Iggy and the King have also shown interest. Expect the pre-view thread either today or tomorrow.

How about you hold an election? I mean, that's what the Americans usually do. ;)
 
Right-o Sheep, though Iggy and the King have also shown interest. Expect the pre-view thread either today or tomorrow.

Well I am not all that upset if I dont get it, if Iggy and King want it more that is, I would be happy not having it. But I would like a power in the first two tiers, perferably a world power...
 
Not sure if its on-topic, but it certainly is an idea, if not an original one. Now, to make it original, how about a 16th century fantasy NES? I mean, with gunpowder, the colonism and the Reformation - but also with Da Vinci machines, golems, alchemistry, Satan, shamans in the New World... and best of all, Kaiser Rudolf II (Wikipedia: "Rudolf II was one of the most eccentric European monarchs of that or any other period. He kept a menagerie of exotic animals and was a great lover of art and architecture, surrounding himself with artists such as the mannerist Bartholomeus Spranger and the fantastical Giuseppe Arcimboldo. He was also fascinated with the sciences, and both Tycho Brahe and Johannes Kepler attended his court, as well as the alchemists Edward Kelley and John Dee. Rudolf gave Prague a mystical reputation that persists in part to this day, with Alchemists' Alley in the grounds of Prague Castle a popular visiting place. He is closely associated with the legend of the Golem, having met the Maharal, Rabbi Loew. Such was Rudolf's reputation that it was rumoured he collected dwarfs and employed a regiment of giants in his army."). The alchemistry aspect alone would be worth it, if properly researched and carried out.

I did realize it was off topic, just didnt want to start a whole thread for such an undeveloped idea.The whole thing with all the divinci guns and tanks is also sweet. I'll look into the alchemy.

Also this got me thinking, I dont know if you know, but Hero of Alexandria drew up plans for steam engine sometime in the B.C.s. When it was rediscovered in the Renaissance, it was thought to be a toy and ignored. But what if it had been constructed 300 years earlier then Watt's one? 1500s Steampunk.
 
Uh, they did?
 
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