Alternate History Thread III

But after finishing the Danes...

It is my opinion that you cannot have it both ways. You want the Imperials to both fight the Swedes and (below seem to suggest that they) take on the Protestant German Princes at the same time. One enemy at a time.


To Spain, even more important, but the French had by then become more keen on taking over the Spanish Burgundian lands, after the late 15th/early 16th century Italian misadventures proved that gains there were hardly tenable, if at all.

It is my reading of history that France was willing to subsidize whoever would fight the Hasburgs, wherever they would fight. With Danes defeated and the Swedes looking inward, that would leave the Pope, who is well known in OTL for wanting to both expand the Papal States and limit the power of the Hasburgs, which means an Italian venture. Of course the war will expand after that, but until the Swedish invasion of Germany, I'm thinking the main focus will be Italy.



What I mean is that the Imperials will doubtless attempt to consolidate their position and root out resistance (after provoking it with the Restitution and such).

Also, Wallenstein's fate here would be quite uncertain. I somewhat doubt that the Imperials would send him to Italy. Actually I suppose that he might become a deciding factor if he conspires with Richelieu, which would certainly be in-character. It might even work out for him. Then again, the Imperials might simply get rid of him after the war. Alternatively they might use him to impose their authority on the German states, as he had suggested. That would alienate the Catholic League, though.

You are also forgetting Pappenheim. I do believe that there were many other good Imperial leaders; don't have the time to check the Wikipedia, but even after losing Tilly and Wallenstein the Imperials fought on quite competently.

Agree about Wallenstein. Pappenheim was a good general, but extremely rash and better with smaller armies. He might be able to slow the Swedes down, or even temporarily halt them, but I guarantee sooner rather than later he will do a rash cavalry charge which will either kill him or utterly destroy his cavalry arm, leading to a giant defeat. And yes, there were other generals, von Mercy for example, but most of these good generals cropped up in the waning stages of the war post 1640s after getting good seasoning from the German war prior to that point. They either wouldn't be there (being where the fighting is) or would be lower rank for the initial Swedish invasion.

As for the Imperial consolidation, I still don't think he would go after his ally Saxony immediately, and if he waits, he will have his hands full with France/Papal States. But again, I see your point, and acknowledge that my timeline would be more likely if there were a butterfly effect of having the Danish war not be such a complete victory for the Imperials, which would make the Imperials more conciliatory with the Protestants.
 
I knew I remembered seeing it somewhere. I read through NES2 V a while ago, around when I joined. I've read all six of them, but III and I most recently so I remember more of those.
 
The most recent is definitely easiest, as I already have a map of sorts and have Part III about half way finished, which will finish off the entirely unexpected end to the Anatolian War and the Indian business, and then will bring us through the 1920s.

Easy is good, for my first NES. And the 1920s are one of my favorite modern time periods. Still barbaric enough to be entertaining :p
 
Amen. One of the reasons I advocated 1919 NES so fiercely.
 
I have a headache, so only a short one today.

PoD-for-the-day (#14 - March 25th, 2007): Edward I lives longer, consolidates the realm, crushes the Scottish rebels and strenghthens his grip on Ireland. Reforms and suchlike strenghthen England and pull the British Isles closer together in multiple regards. England is generally more stable and at the same time more independent (economically and culturally) and more introverted (as opposed to Gallocentrism); this and the inability of the French to distract the English using the (thoroughly defeated) Scotts means that a Hundred Years War will not occur, although English ownership of Gascony will likely cause complications in the future. After the Black Death, a major endeavour on the behalf of either side is all the more unlikely. By the time both countries recover from it, there shall be other opportunities to pursue, for England at least; I propose that its earlier priority shift towards domestic and maritime issues will likely lead to an early English discovery of the New World (like in the early 15th century), and consequent colonisation thereof. There might be wars with Denmark/the Kalmar Union over Greenland and Iceland, and fishing rights. Aquitainians will likely take an important part in the colonisation.

In the meantime, France, though still frustrated on its Atlantic seaboard, would be much stronger, and might shift its attention towards the chaotic Holy Roman Empire. At the very least some gains in the Low Countries could be made. That will result in clashes with Luxembourgs and the various countries under their control, most notably Hungary and Bohemia. Bohemian infantry will humiliate French knights during one of the Saxonian battles of the War of the Election (1412-1437), initiating a new age in warfare.

Naturally there shall be many other changes as well, and not just from the butterfly effect. For instance, the Castilian Civil War (you know, the one where the Black Prince intervenned) will probably be averted, and a less devastated (=more prosperous=more mercantile) Castile might manage to become one of England's key competitors in the Race for the New World.
 
I always liked Longshanks. You know what I'd like to see? Ed I vs. the Mongols in Central Europe! Figure how to make that one happen, please! ;)
 
Thing is, he doesn't seem to be particularily interested in Europe. The Mongols would have to go all the way to Aquitaine; I doubt they could possibly pull that off, or if they would even really want that. The best bet would be the Mongols overruning the HRE, the French king and his immediate successors dying in battle while land-grabbing, and Edward being invited to take the French throne. Then we could have a Longshanks-led Anglo-French army face the Mongols somewhere on the Marne river (Catalaunian Plains AND First Battle of the Marne! I can't imagine any better place for an epic battle, outside of Israel anyway)...

Btw, no comments about the Shi'ite Abbasids?
 
PoD-for-the-day (#15 - March 26th, 2007): Harold Godwinson supports Tostig during the Northumbrian revolt. The rebels are eventually defeated, but the realm is weakened and Northumbria is antagonised. Consequently, in 1066 most of the local nobles and city-dwellers rebel again, in the favour of Harald Hardrada as the nearest foreign sovereign; with Northumbrian help - and without much local resistance - Harald manages to defeat Harold. However, he is weakened in the struggle, while Harold succesfully flees south and eventually agrees to abdicate in the favour of William the Bastard, who has already captured London with nary a fight (obviously, Harold and his family get a lot of privileges and such from this deal). Eventually William expels Harald and his allies from Mercia and other such provinces, but is unable to conquer Northumbria (that includes Deira); and an eventual settlement formalises this state of affairs.

In a smaller Norman England, Norman and French cultural influences would be stronger than the Anglo-Saxon ones (i.e. the proportion is even more in the favour of the former than in OTL); after all, Northumbria was one of the most important cultural centres, as well as political and economic. Without its balancing influence - and its northern opportunities - the Normans would turn towards France earlier, probably seeking to subjugate William's old enemies the Bretons. Generally England's resources would be used to expand Normandy and possibly claim the French throne. A variant would be an eventual (early 12th century?) Norman Empire, consisting of England sans Northumbria, Wales, Flandres and northern France. Southern France would, naturally, be dominated by Aquitaine (possibly a kingdom in its own right, or claiming succession to the Kingdom of France after its destruction by the Normans). That kingdom is likely to enter a union with Aragon, and become a major player in Spanish and Mediterranean politics. An Aquitainian-unified Iberia hasn't been done before, I believe. ;) Meanwhile, the elimination of an unified France would likely lead to renewed independence of Burgundy (meaning the pre-1004 Imperial Burgundies); it would either become an Imperial subject or a major independent player in Italy. Either way it is likely to eventually develop a distinct national identity, based on a mix of strong French, Italian, German and Ancient Roman influences. Not sure if it could become a major power, at least for long. Much depends on the dynastic issues here.

Either way, the Holy Roman Empire is better off with much pressure taken off it in the west. It still will have to deal with internal divisions and feudal strife, so I doubt that it would be much stronger, although if the Emperor takes over Burgundy it might become a good power base, especially for the inevitable Italian campaigns.

Not sure if the Crusades will occur, or at least gain widespread support from the European monarchs if such see better opportunities at home. The Normans in general will be busy conquering France, and the Aquitainians will involve themselves in the Reconquista. The Emperor might actually be more interested, though. That alone may be a reason for Urban I to forget about the whole thing and let the schismatics find a way out of their troubles themselves. Although, the schismatics might still get condititonal assistance from the Most Serene Republicans.

As for Norway-Northumbria... well, if it is to last (and that would be a logical prerequisite for independence of both Northumbria and Norway from their neighbours, who are likely to be less considerate for their subjects; its how long-term unions work) then its natural enemy would be Scotland. After that, Ireland, and then they would consolidate hold on Iceland, Greenland and whatever might be beyond that (and I know its a cliche; its just that there are way too many paths logically leading to an earlier Medieval discovery of the New World). I suspect that Northumbria - already having been influenced by the Norse - would be Norsified further, though some Anglo-Saxon influence would creep into Norwegian culture as well. Another thing; such ties, if they are retained, would probably prevent Norway from falling to either Denmark or Sweden, and that would leave the two fighting over the Baltic Sea instead of Scandinavia. That might lead to my previous Danish Baltic hegemony scenario.
 
No thanks. There are too many reasons for why that didn't happen in OTL.
 
I want my Cesare Borgia timeline!

*has temper tantrum*

:p
 
I want my Cesare Borgia timeline!

*has temper tantrum*

:p

At the time it had been over 100 years since a non-cardinal had been elected pope. Thus, it would have been extremely unlikely that Borgia would be able to be elected unless a previous PoD left his brother Giovanni alive, which would have made Giovanni the general and Borgia remain as a cardinal. Without the experience gained as a general, I can't really see him doing much better (or worse) than Julius II.
 
Not sure if the Crusades will occur, or at least gain widespread support from the European monarchs if such see better opportunities at home. The Normans in general will be busy conquering France, and the Aquitainians will involve themselves in the Reconquista. The Emperor might actually be more interested, though. That alone may be a reason for Urban I to forget about the whole thing and let the schismatics find a way out of their troubles themselves. Although, the schismatics might still get condititonal assistance from the Most Serene Republicans.
What's this "crusade" nonsense? Why would the most glorious Emperor of Rome, Romanus IV Diogenes, request help from the West in his moment of triumph, having eradicated the brief Turkish threat and begun his contest for the Holy Land? :p
 
Don't exactly see the logical connection here, sorry. :p
 
A very short one today.

PoD-for-the-day (#16 - March 27th, 2007): The Marinids from North Africa win the Battle of Rio Salado in 1340, and establish themselves in southern Spain, removing the Nasrids from Granada. Now, this is probably not enough to really reverse the Reconquista; but this will reintensify it for the rest of the 14th century, as the Portuguese-Castillian struggle with the Marinids occurs in Andalusia first and foremost, as opposed to Maghrib only. In the long-term, the Marinids are probably doomed, especially with their constant rebellinos taken into account, but they probably could weaken Castille during the Castillian Civil War (already mentioned in one of the previous PoDs). Still, once the Christian kingdoms get their act together, they are likely to react with greater strenght, putting an end to Grenada early on and then moving the war to North Africa (especially Morocco). A likely consequence would be even stronger military religious knightly orders in Iberia; the 15th century would probably see large scale brutal holy wars all over the Maghreb. Aragon is likely to join it, though the Castillians might beat it to Algiers. I suspect that Castille and Portugal would be driven closer together by the struggle with the Marinids, though, and such an union would be more likely in this world. While Aragon will quite possibly still come under Habsburg rule, and will definitely concentrate on the Mediterranean and Italy, the Castillian-Portuguese union would strive to conquer West Africa, both as part of the Crusade and in order to capture the vast riches therein. I am not sure if it would be looking for a route to India, at least any time soon.

On the other hand, there might be a Castillian-Aragonese union that would seek to reinitiate the Crusades with their traditional goal in mind. Not entirely unlike what Nuclear kid is doing in BirdNES, but ofcourse less extreme and with a more Spanish ruler name.
 
You know what'd be an interesting PoD? At Nicopolis, the French and Hungarians actually get their act together (Enguerrand de Coucy and Sigismund were actually pretty competent, you know) and beat the Turks, killing Bayezit in the process. While the Ottoman Empire disintegrates in succession fights (as it did so often - this time there really isn't anyone strong in the succession line yet to gain power quickly enough, and there are also outside pressures from Crusaders and also...), the Crusaders advance to Adrianople and destroy the Turkish capital. The Serbs, who participated at the battle, would be wiped out; this could serve as a good catalyst for Hungarian expansion southwards. Eventually, the Crusaders cross to Anatolia and are handily defeated by one Timur, who captures Sigismund (I'm really reaching now) and wipes out a large chunk of the Crusading army, but the Turks are basically destroyed (perhaps a smaller succession state could arise, or maybe more than one; I don't believe that they have controlled European territory long enough to matter) and the Byzantines, ably led by Manuel II, can fill in most of the gaps, as can mini-kingdoms similar to those of the Latins after the Fourth Crusade. Not sure of effects in Western Europe; the crusaders are still wiped out (mostly), so the French are still going to get 0wned (although if we kill off Bouciquaut the French might not do something so stupid as attack in that way at Agincourt; a French victory against the English King's raiding party, having learned from their silly mistakes of the previous century, might make that war a good deal more interesting faster). In any event, I think that this offers interesting potentials in the Balkan power vacuum for some unusual nations, and possible side effects in the Hundred Years' War and the events in Hungary soon to come (remember, that Sigismund chappie is supposed to become Holy Roman Emperor later).
 
are handily defeated by one Timur

What would he be doing there? He never did care about Anatolia itself.

might make that war a good deal more interesting faster

The French simply expel the English faster, but then get to fight a right and proper civil war between Burgundy and Orleans?

Removing Sigismund would be fun. The Holy Roman Empire will be quite chaotic (as he was the last Luxembourg, and didn't even have a daughter ITTL, so the Habsburgs wouldn't be able to replace the Luxembourgs, at least so smoothly), though at the same time the Hussite Wars would never happen.
 
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