Alternate History Thread III

[silver 2039]

Who is anti-german on the forums? can't say I've noticed much of that...

I'd rather see Germany dominate the world than bloody France or Britain.

 

[Oruc]

. This most recent one has Greece winning something else, too - World War I. I actually wrote it with a view to a more powerful Germany and Russia, though; Greece was just one of the best ways to get there.

I'm almost scared to write something pro-German with all of the people on this forum, actually. People also seem to have already linked me with Greco-Roman culture, so I might as well just go with it, despite definitely wanting to do more German stuff.

I prefer the Turks over the Greeks personally.

and I have nothing agaisnt Germany... France and Ireland certainly but not Germany.

 

[Dachs]

Who is anti-german on the forums? can't say I've noticed much of that...

Ever seen the World History forums? Apparently people there believe in the justness of Versailles and shoot down anyone who tries to even suggest that Germany has been wronged in any way at any time in its history...but I definitely digress.

Dachs, I [...] have been planning to take one into a game this summer if I decide to try out modding (which is likely). So don't worry too much.

Really? Which one? If it's of interest, I can finish it up and work on stats...that ought to take until summertime with my schedule.

 

[LittleBoots]

Really? Which one? If it's of interest, I can finish it up and work on stats...that ought to take until summertime with my schedule.

Haven't decided yet. Which one(s) would provide enough inspiration for you to make stats/map?

 

[Dachs]

The most recent is definitely easiest, as I already have a map of sorts and have Part III about half way finished, which will finish off the entirely unexpected end to the Anatolian War and the Indian business, and then will bring us through the 1920s.

 

[Azale]

Littleboots making an NES? Sweet!

I am all for a stronger Germany, it's definately interesting. Even rarer is a stronger Sweden or Scandinavia...there is the Norse Empire in Thlayli's nes, but that is about the only example of that I can see.

 

[jeps]

@ Dachs - I am personnally fine with stronger Germany, and any alt-hist about that. So long as you don't try to support Hitler (ideologically, no problem with them winning the war), I'm fine. This from the person who grew up in a house of survivors.

also, I am all for a stronger Sweden. For VASA! (the 1632 series is extremely implausable but at the same time Sweden being that strong would be interesting. Possibly a stronger Sweden and Poland-Lithuania at the same time with a bit of war, then a fast forward to show the effects?)

 

[alex994]

You read the 1632 Series by Eric Flint? I love the book and their subsequent spinoffs!

And I admit, after reading the book it gave me a greater passion for the Swedish Empire

 

[Disenfrancised]

Ever seen the World History forums? Apparently people there believe in the justness of Versailles and shoot down anyone who tries to even suggest that Germany has been wronged in any way at any time in its history...but I definitely digress.

A significant number of people in the world history forum are fools (remembers that northern ireland thread I made the mistake of posting in). Yep germany has been wronged - but hey it could be worse, look at what happened to poland !

 

[jeps]

I know difference between UK and Great Britain, I learnt it in final exam
I understand confusion from my wrong terms, but that hasnt changed nothing.

This thread? If you believe yourself smart enough to debate the entire history of the world - BRITISH history especially, LEARN PROPER GRAMMAR! Also learn the fact that two synonyms can be like each other but in context be completely different.

And no, I dont know why I am ranting, just feel like it...

@ Alex, I felt exactly the same way. I had a great desire to see Sweden succeed, added on top of Sweden already being my 2nd Favorite Nation in Internation Hockey - Peter Forsberg, Mats Sundin, too many Vancouver/Detroit players, but other than that...

 

[Azale]

history people on the NES forum > history people on the World History forum

But maybe I am biased.

Btw, I recall a few das PoD's with a strong Poland-Lithuania...or at least one. NES2 V?

 

[jeps]

I meant strong P-L and strong Sweden at same time. Could go either way, powerful alliance or epic war. Probably epic war.

 

[das]

Who is anti-german on the forums? can't say I've noticed much of that...

Indeed, the forums are teeming with Germanophiles! Bloody Huns!

Apparently people there believe in the justness of Versailles

IMHO the Treaty of Versailles wasn't just or unjust, it was a silly compromise that wronged "the victor and the vanquish'd both", and kinda devalued the whole war.

Anyway, there are many reasons why I steer clear of the World History forum and suchlike.

Littleboots making an NES? Sweet!

Indeed!

I am all for a stronger Germany, it's definately interesting. Even rarer is a stronger Sweden or Scandinavia...there is the Norse Empire in Thlayli's nes, but that is about the only example of that I can see.

Actually, that does hapen in my althists occasionally, though most often under Danish leadership. My present althist does however have a Sweden with good chances of maintaining its great power status until a geopolitical catastrophe of some sort occurs.

no problem with them winning the war

I have a problem with that, however. It was just way too unlikely, and demands a combination of way too many flukes. The Germans got way too much luck in the OTL WWII.

Possibly a stronger Sweden and Poland-Lithuania at the same time with a bit of war, then a fast forward to show the effects?

NES2 V! j_eps, that one had both a stronger Sweden and a stronger Poland. They were allied, though it still took them a long time and lots of foreign assistance to crush the HRE and Muscovy. That was one of the greatest wars in the NES2 series, IMHO, considering that all four countries were led by military geniuses.

This thread? If you believe yourself smart enough to debate the entire history of the world - BRITISH history especially, LEARN PROPER GRAMMAR! Also learn the fact that two synonyms can be like each other but in context be completely different.

Wrong thread, I believe.

 

[ThomAnder]

I meant strong P-L and strong Sweden at same time. Could go either way, powerful alliance or epic war. Probably epic war.

In NES2 V it was a powerful alliance that ended up happening (we were shadowed by FK, but still). Me as poland + Contempt as Sweden vs Andis as HRE and Silver as Muscovy.

EDIT: ah i cross-posted with das. but..

NES2 V! j_eps, that one had both a stronger Sweden and a stronger Poland. They were allied, though it still took them a long time and lots of foreign assistance to crush the HRE and Muscovy. That was one of the greatest wars in the NES2 series, IMHO, considering that all four countries were led by military geniuses.

Sadly only three military geniuses.. i'm far from one... unless you were referring to Capulet who never actually fought

 

[silver 2039]

Ah I remeber that war....fun war...pains me greatly though...I should have launched the suprise naval invasion of Sweden earlier...without warning them with my "sea infantry" raid. Argh....ah well the rest of the world was pretty much the FK pwning everything that moved so it was good we had our little war...

 

[das]

PoD-for-the-day (#13 - March 24th, 2007): [wiki]Muhammad al-Baqir[/wiki] is martyred by the increasingly-paranoid Ummayads, at some point before 740. Consequently [wiki]Zayd ibn Ali[/wiki] claims the Imamate and uses the public outrage to initiate a massive Hashemite uprising, supported wholeheartedly by the Shiites. As this is combined with a defeat on the Byzantine frontier, a Khazar reassertion of independence after a brief period of Arab domination and a major Kharijite Berber revolt in Ifriqiya, the Ummayad Caliphate soon begins to crumble entirely, although Marwan II manages to rally the loyalists in Syria and to defend the Levant and Egypt. As the Abbasids didn't have the time to infiltrate North Africa and generally strenghthen their forces as in OTL, and are also hindered by growing Sunni opposition, they are unable to advance beyond Iraq, and are fought to a standstill in Syria. The Ummayad attempt to strike back fails badly, however, and they are also unable to reassert control over the far west, where Kharijites and warlords thrive. Lastly, foreign powers take advantage of the Islamic weakness; the Byzantines expel the followers of both dynasties from Asia Minor, while the Khazars reclaim their Caucasian holdings. The Abbasids are able to maintain their authority in Central Asia, however, pushing the Tang Chinese invaders back.

By 775, four "successor states" exist in the place of the former Ummayad Caliphate. The Fihrid Emirate, founded by the last Ummayad governor Yusuf al-Fihri, has taken over al-Andalus, but is impoverished, poorly-ran and very unstable. An egalitarian Kharijite tribal confederacy, the Ifriqiya, dominates the Maghrib; it doesn't have a central government, but warlords are frequently able to rally the tribes and lead them into campaigns against their enemies. Not much land is ever gained in those campaigns, but the Ifriqiyan raids and piracy terrorise all of the Western Mediterranean with unprecedented ruthlessness and efficiency. Even Rome is sacked once, the Pope martyred in the most brutal way imaginable, though the city is naturally rebuilt, as is the Papacy. The reformed Ummayad Caliphate lingers on in Egypt, also controlling Cyreneica, the Levant and Hejjaz. Having drawn upon Sunni and Arab support, the Ummayads managed to survive and even achieve a golden age of sorts, with extensive public works and patronage of "arts and sciences". Jews and Maronite Christians are tolerated and occasionally manage to rise to prominence (basically, you may consider this to be like OTL early Ummayad Spain, only in Egypt, with appropriate changes). Bedouins and disciplinned Syrian infantry allow for combined arms tactics. The Abbasid Imamate, controlling Iraq, Persia, Khorasan and southern Central Asia, embraces the Shi'a faith; it is also embraced by most of the Imamate's subjects, especially in Persia. The Imamate's true base is indeed in Persia, and much to the concern of its Arab subjects it is swiftly "Persified"; the Academy of Gundishapur undergoes a renaissance, the capital is moved to the central location of Isfahan, and the well-educated Persians take over most of the expanded civil service. Public works are likewise undertaken, also in line with Persian traditions and technologies.

Elsewhere in the world, Tang China is shaken badly by its defeats. The brutal An Lushan rebellion consequently succeeds, and the Turkic general An Lushan manages to impose himself as Emperor, though his Empire is very unstable and corrupt and fails to outlive him, resulting in severe anarchy. The Khazars dominate the Pontic steppe (with its trade routes) AND the Caucasus (the "Pax Khazarica"), though they are also somewhat stagnant, religiously conflicted (Pagans vs. Muslims vs. Jews) and unable to overthrow the Abbasid control in Central Asia. The Byzantine Empire is less embattled, and able to concentrate on the Balkans and Italy. The Bulgars are crushed, while Italy - its native rulers, especially the Pope and Lombard king, further weakened by Berber raids - is forced to acknowledge Byzantine hegemony. The revived Papacy is particularily subordinated to Constantinople, and is forced to help the imposition of the iconoclastic policies, though many icons are smuggled into Frankish lands with secret Papal assistance. Indeed, a major exodus of Italian religious dissidents occurs as well, and all of this helps trigger the "Frankish Renaissance". Pepin's vigorous policies help foster it; the Franks also expand into northeastern Spain, allying with Asturia, which also makes gains, swiftly reducing the Fihrid Emirate to 1/3rd of the peninsula. Pepin died in 773, and his son Charlemagne inherited a powerful and prosperous kingdom. It stood ready to exploit its numerous opportunities, but Charlemagne was particularily indignated at the Byzantine actions in Italy...

IMHO this scenario could be developed further, both in time and in space. It is in some regards similar to the Ostrogoth scenario, don't you think? Anyway, the Dark Ages are lots of fun. We need more NESes set there.

 

[The Strategos]

I’ve been mulling over doing something with what is probably my favorite non-pointy stick general after finishing my The Eternal Wait series. But until then, all this Swedish talk motivated me to do a PoD-for-the-day regarding the aforementioned general.

Silence of the Lion​

PoD-for-the-day (BONUS: March 24th, 2007): August 8, 1627, a date that would cause the eyes of an entire nation to turn towards a small town far from its own borders. The previous day the Swedish and Polish armies had met near Tczew in a battle which had quickly escalated from a small skirmish that had resulted in a slight Swedish victory. Now, as a new day dawned, the Swedish, led by their impetuous king Gustavus Adolphus, were determined to exploit their victory from the day before to completely defeat the pesky Poles under the command of the brilliant Stanisław Koniecpolski. And, indeed, it appeared that the Swedes would get their sought after victory as their forces started pushing back the Polish army. However, before the Swedes could completely assure their victory, a bullet hit their king, who had been in the thick of the fight, going through his breast before finally lodging in his throat. At this, the Swedes stopped their attack, pulling back to their fortifications at Tczew under the cover of darkness. That night, as darkness fell across the land, an eternal darkness that would not be dissipated by any earthly sun fell on the wounded king. Gustavus Adolphus was dead.

With Adolphus’ death, it appeared for a little while that the Poles might emerge completely victorious. The Polish king, Sigmund III, had for the entirety of his life been pressing his rights to the throne of Sweden, from which he had been disposed in 1599. Now, with the next heir in line being Adolphus’ one year old daughter Christina, it appeared that some within Sweden would be willing to accept Sigmund’s claims. However, the vast majority of Protestant Sweden still feared that the Catholic Sigmund would attempt to impose Catholicism on Sweden. These forces railed by Lord High Chancellor Oxenstierna, ensured that Sweden would continue to fight Poland.

Though he did not have the sheer brilliance of his former king, Oxenstierna was a great general in his own right, having a firm grasp on such essentials as how to maintain supplies and grand strategic army movements. Even better, he continued the military reforms started by his late king, keeping the Swedish army as one of the best in Europe. However, one thing that Oxenstierna was, especially after seeing his king die in battle, was cautious. This caution led Oxenstierna to keep on the defensive after Adolphus’ death, concerned more with consolidating Sweden’s hold on the territories it already held rather than capture new territories.

Koniecpolski used this respite to seize the initiative from the Swedes. The following year, 1628, represented the high point of Polish fortunes. In that year, several Swedish held cities had fallen to the Polish army. In addition, a newly created Polish fleet, built under the direction of Koniecpolski himself, defeated it’s Swedish counterpart, briefly winning control of the Baltic for the Polish. By then, however, the Polish wave had crested. The Polish fleet itself was defeated mere months after its own victory, opening up again the Swedish supply lines. Oxenstierna’s caution was beginning to pay off as the land the Swedes now held, though smaller than before, was now heavily fortified. In addition, Polish forces were, like they had been more often than not throughout the campaign, suffering from lack of funds and poor supply lines. By now, Oxenstierna was ready to retake the offense. However, he was not concerned with delivering one killer blow, but instead to slowly capture and consolidate the Baltic, forcing the Poles to retreat further and further inland, despite the best efforts of Koniecpolski, who used his outnumbered forces brilliantly in an ultimately futile effort to hold back the determined Swedes. Eventually, a Cossack rebellion within Poland caused a treaty to be sought by the Poles, which was accepted by Oxenstierna. This treaty formalized what had now become the status quo, cementing Swedish control over the territories it held and in general ensuring it’s dominance of the Baltic coast.


Elsewhere:

-With Oxenstierna in control, Sweden moves to consolidate its position, rather than looking elsewhere for wars to fight, as a result, Sweden does not immediately enter the 30 Years War, which ends with the Treaty of Lubeck in 1629. The German Lutherans, the Dutch, and of course, Cardinal Richelieu, were not happy with this, but none of them wanted to pick on the Hasburgs without more support.

-This support will come, ironically enough, from Pope Urban VIII. Throughout his reign, Pope Urban VIII was committed to two things, increase the political boundaries of the Papal States, and preserve a balance of power in Europe. These two goals naturally enough, led him to oppose the quickly growing power of the Hasburgs. Together, France and the Papal States will attack Hasburg interests in Italy, ensuring that Italy, not Germany, will be the main battleground

-Of course, after a few years of this, Oxenstierna, who always looked after the best interests of Sweden, would use the Hasburgs inattention to make a grab at expanding Sweden’s influence in the Germanic states bordering the Baltic. Because the Hasburg’s best generals will be south in Italy, the Swedes forces romp through Germany.

-To make a long story less long, the French/Papal States/Swedish/German forces defeat the Hasburg forces. Hasburgs are allowed to keep the HRE but a rival Protestant Empire is set up with King John George of Saxony as its Emperor. Papal States and France gain some Italian territories while Sweden rakes in along the Baltic Coast and in influence among the Protestants in Germany.

 

[das]

Oxenstierna was a great general in his own right

More like a great war minister.

In addition, a newly created Polish fleet, built under the direction of Koniecpolski himself, defeated it’s Swedish counterpart, briefly winning control of the Baltic for the Polish.

That's a bit too strong, at least without Imperial support. I don't recall the Poles having much of a naval tradition or something.

But speaking of Imperial support - seeing that the Imperials were actively helping the Poles in the war, and as they did intend to take over the Baltic, wouldn't it make sense for Poland and the Empire to invade Sweden together? Then again, such an invasion would probably fail, and then things would converge with your timeline again.

Together, France and the Papal States will attack Hasburg interests in Italy, ensuring that Italy, not Germany, will be the main battleground

Somewhat doubtable. Italy wasn't quite as important for anyone involved as Germany or the Netherlands. Then again, capturing it would allow the anti-Habsburg coalition to divide the Austrians and the Spaniards geographically, which would be an advantage. I'm just not sure if they could exploit it afterwards while also maintaining control over Italy.

Because the Hasburg’s best generals will be south in Italy, the Swedes forces romp through Germany

I doubt that they would be able to do that without Gustavus Adolphus, and with their potential German allies likely crushed. The Imperials would doubtless do their best to consolidate their position, and to remove all threats to it; that would include Brandenburg and Saxony, ofcourse.

Hasburgs are allowed to keep the HRE but a rival Protestant Empire is set up with King John George of Saxony as its Emperor.

Not quite sure how that will work, though some details might be needed. Also, it should probably be "Evangelical Empire".

I again state my doubt in the regards of the Habsburgs letting Saxony stay in any reasonably powerful state, if they have the time to consolidate the Empire.

Still, an interesting idea. It could also have some additional interesting consequences in Eastern Europe, as there will be no Smolensk War - although perhaps the Poles might try their luck in Russia again if they are unhindered by the Swedes.

 

[The Strategos]

More like a great war minister.

He actually did serve as quite a successful general in both the Polish War and the Thirty Years War. Though, of course, he didn't compare with Adolphus, his brilliance was more along the overall strategic realm, not tactics.

That's a bit too strong, at least without Imperial support. I don't recall the Poles having much of a naval tradition or something.

This is actually based off an event that happened in OTL during the Polish War.

But speaking of Imperial support - seeing that the Imperials were actively helping the Poles in the war, and as they did intend to take over the Baltic, wouldn't it make sense for Poland and the Empire to invade Sweden together? Then again, such an invasion would probably fail, and then things would converge with your timeline again.

But at the time the Imperials were fighting the Danes.

Somewhat doubtable. Italy wasn't quite as important for anyone involved as Germany or the Netherlands. Then again, capturing it would allow the anti-Habsburg coalition to divide the Austrians and the Spaniards geographically, which would be an advantage. I'm just not sure if they could exploit it afterwards while also maintaining control over Italy.

It was important to the Pope who wanted to expand the Papal States. France didn't really care as long as someone was fighting the Hasburgs. Besides which, France and Spain have both had a long tradition of meddling in Italy. What's important to remember is this war isn't about religion, but politics, and Italian politics were just as important to the Pope, France, and Spain as German politics.

I doubt that they would be able to do that without Gustavus Adolphus, and with their potential German allies likely crushed. The Imperials would doubtless do their best to consolidate their position, and to remove all threats to it; that would include Brandenburg and Saxony, ofcourse.

But their German allies aren't crushed, as the Thirty Years War ended way earlier, right after the Danish phase, before any real damage was done in Germany itself. Thus, after the intial success, the Swedes would gain opportunistic allies giving them a huge initial advantage. In OTL it was basically the brilliance of Tilly and von Wallenstein who prevented the Imperials from immediately losing, with them in Italy, I can't see anyone in Germany who has the brilliance to overcome the Swedish army at its peak.

Not quite sure how that will work, though some details might be needed. Also, it should probably be "Evangelical Empire".

I didn't intend for what I called it to be the actual name, more a description.

I again state my doubt in the regards of the Habsburgs letting Saxony stay in any reasonably powerful state, if they have the time to consolidate the Empire.

You may be right on this point but remember, in OTL, Saxony and the Emperor were allies until 1631, which was after the Swedes had invaded Germany. Despite this, we may need a butterfly effect in order to ensure that the Imperial victory over the Danes was not as complete as it was in OTL, preventing the Imperials from feeling they had the strength to begin to alienate powerful elements like Saxony.

Still, an interesting idea. It could also have some additional interesting consequences in Eastern Europe, as there will be no Smolensk War - although perhaps the Poles might try their luck in Russia again if they are unhindered by the Swedes.

Maybe, I don't know, though if you think its reasonable...

 

[das]

But at the time the Imperials were fighting the Danes.

But after finishing the Danes...

What's important to remember is this war isn't about religion, but politics, and Italian politics were just as important to the Pope, France, and Spain as German politics.

To Spain, even more important, but the French had by then become more keen on taking over the Spanish Burgundian lands, after the late 15th/early 16th century Italian misadventures proved that gains there were hardly tenable, if at all.

But their German allies aren't crushed, as the Thirty Years War ended way earlier, right after the Danish phase, before any real damage was done in Germany itself.

What I mean is that the Imperials will doubtless attempt to consolidate their position and root out resistance (after provoking it with the Restitution and such).

Also, Wallenstein's fate here would be quite uncertain. I somewhat doubt that the Imperials would send him to Italy. Actually I suppose that he might become a deciding factor if he conspires with Richelieu, which would certainly be in-character. It might even work out for him. Then again, the Imperials might simply get rid of him after the war. Alternatively they might use him to impose their authority on the German states, as he had suggested. That would alienate the Catholic League, though.

You are also forgetting Pappenheim. I do believe that there were many other good Imperial leaders; don't have the time to check the Wikipedia, but even after losing Tilly and Wallenstein the Imperials fought on quite competently.