Alternate History Thread III

[Dachs]

What would he be doing there? He never did care about Anatolia itself.

Grab a free money piece of the Turkish pie, I suppose.

The French simply expel the English faster, but then get to fight a right and proper civil war between Burgundy and Orleans?

I don't know - it depends on who dies. Jean the Fearless was on Crusade, too, after all, and if there's no Jean...

Removing Sigismund would be fun. The Holy Roman Empire will be quite chaotic (as he was the last Luxembourg, and didn't even have a daughter ITTL, so the Habsburgs wouldn't be able to replace the Luxembourgs, at least so smoothly), though at the same time the Hussite Wars would never happen.

I've always been confused about the Hussite Wars in general, and Wiki is unhelpful; can you point me to a good site that explains what was happening?

 

[silver 2039]

Grab a free money piece of the Turkish pie, I suppose.

What? When he could better spend that time raping Delhi? I think not...they'res not that much to loot, plunder, rape, pillage and massacre in Antalonia. The only reason he even attacked OTL was because the Ottomans were a threath to this power. With no Ottoman threath he's free to rape, loot, and pillage India to his hearts content.

 

[Israelite9191]

I was re-reading through Pál Engel’s paper "The Age of the Angevines, 1301-1382" (Chapter 5 [pg. 34-53] of Peter F. Sugar's, Péter Hanák's, and Tibor Frank's [editors] A History of Hungary) and I got an idea for a PoD:

In 1343 King Robert of Naples and of Anjou of the House of Angevine, great-great-uncle to King Louis I the Great of Hungary of the House of Angevine, died. At the time, Louis' younger brother Andrew was the Duke of Calabria, the husband of Joan I of Naples, grand-daughter by his first son to King Robert. This made Andrew the natural heir to Robert. However, Queen Mother Elisabeth of Poland of Hungary, the mother of both Andrew and Louis, was just as power-thirsty as her first son and so wished to see Hungary and Naples united under one king, Louis I. Upon Robert's death she embarked with the blessing of Buda's court to Italy, where she invested five tons of gold florins and more of silver in an attempt to purchase the Neaopolitan throne for Louis. She did, in fact, manage to win the favor of the pope, Naple's overlord, but it was too late. Her second son Andrew ascended to the throne (he was quickly murdered, however, leading to two Hungarian campaigns to conquer the region in revenge, both of which failed as no southern Italian wished to see a king not bearing the Neapolitan crown on the throne).

Here is the PoD, Robert remains on the death bead for some time longer drawing out the whole process; this gives Elisabeth the necessary time to purchase the crown for her elder son. Upon Richard's death, Louis comes across the Adriatic and is crowned the legitamate King of Naples.

Having a firm grip over Naples, Louis then proceeds to use the resources he spends in his two Neapolitan campaigns in OTL plus added resources from Italy to campaign against his southern neighbours in Račka (Bosnia), Serbia, Bulgaria, and Cumania (Walachia and Moldavia). While in OTL these campaigns were unseccessful, the added resources and focus would likely make the campaigns much more successful, effectively extending Hungary deep into the southern Balkans as far as the Byzantines.

This strengthens Hungary, affirming its place. It also strengthens the Angevine line, allowing Hungary to continue its Golden Age past where in OTL the Angevine line died out and unattentive Jagellion rulership, distracted from a slowly weakening Hungary sapped of strength after the fall of its Byzantine ally, allowed Hungary to fall to pieces and be overrun by the Ottomans and Austrians. However, a strengthened Hungary would also naturally run into conflict with its long-time Byzantine ally. The Byzantine fall would thus be quickened, as a Byzantium engaged in conflict with both Hungary and the Ottomans could not last long.

Additionally, the Ottomans being forced from easy conquest of the weak Christian kingdoms as they pursied in OTL by Hungary having conquered them would turn the Ottomans away from Europe. This would turn them even more towards Africa and towards conflict with Persia. This conflict with Persia would likely trickle down to India and East Asia in some way, though I don't know quite how. Additionally, without domination of most of the Balkans, the Ottomans would lose nearly all of their Janissary forces that proved so precious in OTL, weakening them militarily.

As for Western Europe, the strengthening of Hungary would mean that the Queen Mother Elisabeth of Bosnia would have been able to prevent the marriage of her daughter Mary to Sigismund, who was destested by both, in favor of a marriage with a member of either the related Bosnian royal family or the Croatian noble family, the Frangipanis who were close friends with Elisabeth as well as part of the larger Gorjanskih clan which were the major allies of the Bosnian royal family to which Elisabeth belonged or, just as likely or perhaps more likely, carrying out of her reign indepedently. In the former case a Hungarian heir would have been produced and in the later case Tvrtko, Ban (a Hungarian noble title) of Bosnia and King of the Serbs would have succeeded to the Hungarian throne. In any case this would have fit in to Hungary's growing dominance of the Balkans, while more importantly to the west would have turned Sigismund's attention towards Germany.

Deprived of power in Hungary, he most likely would have embarked on a series of the sort of sinister political moves for which he is remembered as he reached for power in Germany. On the other hand, without the accumen and power gained while king of Hungary he may not have been in the necessary position to secure the Holy Roman Emperorship upon the death of King Rupert. How either of these scenarios would have fanned out I am not sure, but I am sure it would have been significant.

 

[das]

the added resources and focus would likely make the campaigns much more successful, effectively extending Hungary deep into the southern Balkans as far as the Byzantines.

IMHO the resistance was too strong. Serbia for one thing was at its strongest. A Hungarian hegemony is not impossible but complete conquest all the way towards the Byzantine border sounds farfetched.

This would turn them even more towards Africa

Doubtable, Africa didn't interest the Ottomans much before the defeat of the Mamlukes.

Apart from that, quite nice.

 

[Israelite9191]

Perhaps you are right about Africa, I won't argue that as the Ottomans are really an area of expertise. As for the Balkans, Serbia may have been strong, but if you pay close attention to the titles heald by the key players, the problem of them is eliminated. Ban Istvan Tvrkto of Bosnia, the most likely successor to the Hungarian throne following Mary (in OTL Mary appointed him as her successor but he was "mysteriously murdered" (i.e. Sigismund had him knocked off) too early), was not only Ban of Bosnia by the grace of Hungary, but he also managed to secure for himself the kingship of Serbia (he would later also sever Bosnia from Hungary and become king of Bosnia, but TTL eliminates that). Should Tvrtko ascend to the throne of Hungary already possessing the banship of Bosnia and the kingship of Serbia, Hungary would have total authority of the west Balkans and be simply too powerful for Bulgaria or the Byzantium to contend. It should also be noted that the rise of Serbia in OTL was, in fact, in large part due to its union with Bosnia under Tvrtko. Make Tvrtko the king, and all the power that Serbia would gain is placed under Hungary. Furthermore, it must also be noted that up until Sigismund and the fall of the Angevine, Serbia had always been a semi-dependency on Hungary. Belgrade and all the Serb territory north of it was, in fact, originally ruled by the Magyars and inhabited by a mix of Magyars and Bosniaks before it was gifted by Ladislaus IV of Hungary to Stefan Urlos II Milutin.

 

[das]

Should Tvrtko ascend to the throne of Hungary already possessing the banship of Bosnia and the kingship of Serbia, Hungary would have total authority of the west Balkans and be simply too powerful for Bulgaria or the Byzantium to contend.

Only presuming it works out well. There might be problems of a religious nature (like the ones that upset the various OTL plans for a Russo-Polish union in the 16th century).

 

[Israelite9191]

Only presuming it works out well. There might be problems of a religious nature (like the ones that upset the various OTL plans for a Russo-Polish union in the 16th century).

Religious qualms could be a possibility, but there are two key differences between the attempted Russo-Polish union and the Hungarian-Bosno-Serbian union. First, Poland at the time had never been concidered either part of or subject to Russia. Serbia, on the other hand, had always been at least somwhat dependent on Hungary while Bosnia had for centuries been in fact a part of Hungary, with Trvtko being the one to seperate Bosnia after the fall of the Angevines. Second, where as the religious differences were of great importance for the Polish and Russians, they are not nearly as important for the Hungarians and Serbs. While it is true that Hungary has always been a devoutly Catholic country, there has also always been a significant Hungarian Orthodox minority that lived in complete peace with the Catholics. Additionally, after the Protestant reformation, Hungary is notable in that there was no real significant infighting between the Catholics and Protestants, not counting Austrian intervention (I should no, half of my father's family is Hungarian with half Catholics and half Protestants). Basically, wheras in Poland and Russia religion was a significant concern, in Hungary and Serbia power politics and family relations were more important. (You know, its kind of funny that you are arguing for greater importance of religion and I am arguing for lesser importance, don't you think?)

On a different note, I was doing some research on Sigismund and something struck me. Namely, Sigismund was vastly important in the condemnation of the Hussites and the following Hussite wars. He was the one that convinced his brother, Wenceslaus IV of Bohemia, to persecute the Hussites. He was also the main man responsible for the Council of Constance condemning the Hussites. He was also the man responsible for securing the Papal Bull calling for crusade against the Hussites. If Sigismund is eliminated as a power due to his failure to attain a base in Hungary and indeed to gain an "in" of any sort into the complex familial power politics of Europe, then perhaps the Hussites would have been able to live in peace under the rulership of the frankly un-caring Wenceslaus in Bohemia. For how long they would have survived and spread and how much of an effect they would have had, I don't know. But it seems like an important line of events to follow. Any thoughts?

 

[das]

PoD-for-the-day (#17 - March 28th, 2007): The Venezuelan War of Independence (the 1810-1812 one) is succesful, at least in Venezuela itself, and Francisco de Miranda retains control over the independence movement, getting rid of Bolivar along the way. After defeating the llaneros in Venezuela, de Miranda is able to easily take over chaotic Colombia, but is unable to defeat the viceroy of Peru in Ecuador. Ultimately that is how the situation in northern and central South America stabilises, with a fairly stable Federation of New Granada (republican, but with very extensive presidential powers and long terms) in OTL Venezuela, Colombia and Panama and a reactionary Viceroyalty of Peru from Ecuador to Bolivia includingly. Chile manages to quietly break free as an independent republic. So does Paraguay, but Argentina, destabilised considerably thanks to de Miranda, eventually falls to a third British invasion effort.

Now, this is unlikely to alter the outcome of the war in Europe too much, but afterwards a stronger, more stable and better-organised Viceroyalty of Peru would probably still return into the Spanish fold, and Ferdinand VII's wars of reconquest would probably go somewhat better. On the other hand, it might lead to a serious confrontation with Britain, in which case the Viceroy might decide to declare independence, or may be overthrown.

 

[das]

While it is true that Hungary has always been a devoutly Catholic country, there has also always been a significant Hungarian Orthodox minority that lived in complete peace with the Catholics.

That's entirely beside the point (the Protestants are even more so). I just doubt that the Hungarian nobility would accept an Orthodox Southern Slav on the throne. I do not recall any precedents, at least in religiously-stable countries. There are too many complications involved.

Religion as such is still quite unimportant, don't worry.

If Sigismund is eliminated as a power due to his failure to attain a base in Hungary and indeed to gain an "in" of any sort into the complex familial power politics of Europe, then perhaps the Hussites would have been able to live in peace under the rulership of the frankly un-caring Wenceslaus in Bohemia. For how long they would have survived and spread and how much of an effect they would have had, I don't know. But it seems like an important line of events to follow. Any thoughts?

I doubt that Sigismund would be "eliminated"; he still remains a Luxembourg, and so will still inherit Bohemia, though not Hungary. Ofcourse, if he fails to take over the Holy Roman Empire then the Hussites will overthrow him easily; after that I'd imagine that they will invite a Jagiellon to take the throne, as they had been planning to do in OTL. In that case the Hussite faith has fair chances of spreading into Poland (where it was quite popular even in OTL) and Lithuania (which was still quite malleable in many regards). Then we eitehr get a religious "cold war" or an "ultimate" clash between the Germans and the West Slavs that the Polish nobility had so feared. Basically, the Pope would attempt to prop up the Teutonic Order again, and organise crusades into Bohemia, Silesia and western Poland. Hussite Wars writ large.

 

[Dachs]

Unfortunately, I don't know much about South American history; I'll have to pass on commenting on das' PoDotD. While I toil away on my own TL, I'm wondering: how's the Ming Chinese, Swedish, and French madness going?

 

[Israelite9191]

That's entirely beside the point (the Protestants are even more so). I just doubt that the Hungarian nobility would accept an Orthodox Southern Slav on the throne. I do not recall any precedents, at least in religiously-stable countries. There are too many complications involved.

Religion as such is still quite unimportant, don't worry.

Actually, after doing some more research, I stumbled upon a nice little tidbit: Tvrtko was Catholic. Most Bosniaks, at the time, still adhered to teachings of the Church of Bosnia (a now defunct church that was neither Orthodox or Catholic and lay outside of the jurisdiction of either) but were nominal Roman Catholics. In fact, Tvrtko's uncle and the previous holder of the Bosnian crown, Stjepan II, had allied himself with the pope and fought a vicious campaign against the power of the Bosnian Church in support of the Hungarian bishopric. Tvrtko was a Catholic in line with the Hungarian court but still accepted, more than readily, by the Orthodox Serbs and the Kristjani (Bosnian Church) Bosniaks. So, obviously, Tvrtko would not have been a problem for the Hungarians and is, in fact, the missing precedent you speak of for a Catholic ruling over Orthodox/Kristjani people. (Also, do note that Tvrtko was only half a Slav and was indeed a member, matrilineally, of the native Magyar Arpad dynasty and thus had strong claims as a Magyar and as a rightful holder of the Hungarian throne.)

I doubt that Sigismund would be "eliminated"; he still remains a Luxembourg, and so will still inherit Bohemia, though not Hungary. Ofcourse, if he fails to take over the Holy Roman Empire then the Hussites will overthrow him easily; after that I'd imagine that they will invite a Jagiellon to take the throne, as they had been planning to do in OTL. In that case the Hussite faith has fair chances of spreading into Poland (where it was quite popular even in OTL) and Lithuania (which was still quite malleable in many regards). Then we eitehr get a religious "cold war" or an "ultimate" clash between the Germans and the West Slavs that the Polish nobility had so feared. Basically, the Pope would attempt to prop up the Teutonic Order again, and organise crusades into Bohemia, Silesia and western Poland. Hussite Wars writ large.

Perhaps "eliminated" is too strong a turn of phrase. He was a Luxembourg, which put him in a place of prominence, but he most likely would never have achieved de facto rulership of Bohemia, only titular. The Czechs generally despised him and did not recognise him for almost two decades after he inherited the throne. You are probably right in that a Jagiellon would have been invited to ascend to the Bohemian throne, although Wenceslaus IV did have relations to the Angevine thrown in Hungary and with a powerful, religiously tolerant Hungarian monarchy it might be possible that Bohemia could fall to Hungarian rule.

As for a face off between the Hussites and the Catholics, I would think a "cold war" more likely, as very few other than Sigismund actually wanted eradication of the Hussites, most just wanted to ignore the whole affair. By the time the Holy See and the rest of the Catholic monarchs caught up to whole affair, it would most likely be too late for any serious Hussite Wars. More likely, the whole affair would follw a trend similar to that of the OTL post-Protestant Reformation with a gradual spread of Hussite religion and some more localized face offs between Catholic and Hussite similar to the OTL face offs between Catholic and Protestant, such as the
OTL Anglo-Spanish contentions.

@Dachspmg- Any thoughts on all of this? You seem to have a pretty good knowledge of the region IIRC and any input at all would be valued.

 

[Israelite9191]

PoD-for-the-day (#17 - March 28th, 2007): The Venezuelan War of Independence (the 1810-1812 one) is succesful, at least in Venezuela itself, and Francisco de Miranda retains control over the independence movement, getting rid of Bolivar along the way. After defeating the llaneros in Venezuela, de Miranda is able to easily take over chaotic Colombia, but is unable to defeat the viceroy of Peru in Ecuador. Ultimately that is how the situation in northern and central South America stabilises, with a fairly stable Federation of New Granada (republican, but with very extensive presidential powers and long terms) in OTL Venezuela, Colombia and Panama and a reactionary Viceroyalty of Peru from Ecuador to Bolivia includingly. Chile manages to quietly break free as an independent republic. So does Paraguay, but Argentina, destabilised considerably thanks to de Miranda, eventually falls to a third British invasion effort.

Now, this is unlikely to alter the outcome of the war in Europe too much, but afterwards a stronger, more stable and better-organised Viceroyalty of Peru would probably still return into the Spanish fold, and Ferdinand VII's wars of reconquest would probably go somewhat better. On the other hand, it might lead to a serious confrontation with Britain, in which case the Viceroy might decide to declare independence, or may be overthrown.

The only real result of this that I can see is a stronger New Granada. Peru would have seperated soon anyway, it was the hotbed of Amerindian, mestizo, and criollo hatred of the penisulares' rule. I did a short term paper on the Amerindian POV during the South American independence movement. I believe I posted it in the History Forum, so it should be too hard to find. IIRC the main title was "A Fire Burns in Cuzco".

 

[das]

So, obviously, Tvrtko would not have been a problem for the Hungarians and is, in fact, the missing precedent you speak of for a Catholic ruling over Orthodox/Kristjani people. (Also, do note that Tvrtko was only half a Slav and was indeed a member, matrilineally, of the native Magyar Arpad dynasty and thus had strong claims as a Magyar and as a rightful holder of the Hungarian throne.)

In that case the problem would be in Serbia, though admittedly that would be somewhat easier to deal with, presuming a stronger Hungary.

most just wanted to ignore the whole affair

A heresy is a heresy, and the Papacy was at the time trying to reassert its authority. A clash would probably still have occured. I recall that there were some plans for coordinated German (Imperial and Teutonic) action against Poland if it were to involve itself too much in Bohemia.

a gradual spread of Hussite religion

Where would it spread? I suppose that Hungary could be a reasonable direction, but apart from that the Hussites were way too ethnical. Although, some heresies might be inspired in western Europe. I doubt that this would cater much to the Germans though.

The only real result of this that I can see is a stronger New Granada. Peru would have seperated soon anyway, it was the hotbed of Amerindian, mestizo, and criollo hatred of the penisulares' rule.

In the long-term. Plus their hatred seems to be pretty powerless (as is, indeed, usual; some people here seem to overestimate the power of hatred), considering that they failed to make any real gains until Bolivar invaded.

 

[Dachs]

@Dachspmg- Any thoughts on all of this? You seem to have a pretty good knowledge of the region IIRC and any input at all would be valued.

The geography, perhaps, and certainly things beyond, say, 1683; unfortunately, I needed to check out a book on the Hussite Wars to fire off any real arguments of substance here.

Well, the Hussites' religious problems with expansion notwithstanding, I don't really think that they would be able to launch an invasion of any particular location, even screwing around in Hungary in Sigismund's absence. Ziska, the greatest of the Hussite generals (and a Taborite, even - one of those based on the idea of killing all of the "heretics"), formulated the brilliant wagenberg tactical theory...but that theory was in essence only a defensive one strategically as well as tactically. The Taborites, at least, were constrained at least militarily from attacking Hungary or even other locations. The fact that they were the most likely to go after anyone in an invasion (as opposed to Utraquists, anyway) sort of precludes offensive operations outside Bohemia.

A war with the Hussites on the defending end is however one of the most likely things; Martin V did declare a crusade against them in March 1420, after all. Even without Martin on the papal throne, I still think that the Catholics, in order to retain at least some form of legitimacy (after all, they were trying to get that union of the Churches with the Orthodox, too - too bad Constantinople fell with Constantine XI, or they would have had actual support in that sphere), would have launched some kind of operations against them. Perhaps the Wars wouldn't be pursued as stringently without someone of Sigismund's caliber in control of the Empire, especially with Ziska able to smash any attacks with the wagenberg, but as soon as Ziska dies from whatever cause, the Catholics will doubtless gain supremacy and smash the remaining Hussites, just as in OTL.

 

[das]

I don't really think that they would be able to launch an invasion of any particular location

Well, they could always launch those glorified raids of theirs, but I agree that a proper invasion is beyond them. The Hussite religion however could spread to Poland; as already mentioned, they had many sympathisers there.

Perhaps the Wars wouldn't be pursued as stringently without someone of Sigismund's caliber in control of the Empire, especially with Ziska able to smash any attacks with the wagenberg, but as soon as Ziska dies from whatever cause, the Catholics will doubtless gain supremacy and smash the remaining Hussites, just as in OTL.

Not at all. Firstly, the Hussites had many more leaders than just Zizka; hell, George of Podebrady was a Hussite, and he was the goddamn king even after the wars had ended. Secondly, here their strategic situation is much better; Hungary is more interested in conquering the Balkans, while Poland is an ally. How long can the Hussites fight a one-front war when supported by Poland? Indefinitely, I think, especially as in this world they won't be so bickering.

 

[Israelite9191]

In that case the problem would be in Serbia, though admittedly that would be somewhat easier to deal with, presuming a stronger Hungary.

Additionally, the Serbs at the time seem not to have really had any problem with a Catholic overlord. They did, after all, make Trvtka there king.

A heresy is a heresy, and the Papacy was at the time trying to reassert its authority. A clash would probably still have occured. I recall that there were some plans for coordinated German (Imperial and Teutonic) action against Poland if it were to involve itself too much in Bohemia.

I could imagine a minor clash between a number of the Germany states, possibly in combination with the Teutonic Knights, and Poland (possibly in union with Hungary). However, without Sigismund at the helm maneuvering the whole thing, a large, focused campaign as seen in the OTL Hussite Campaigns is unlikely in my mind.

Where would it spread? I suppose that Hungary could be a reasonable direction, but apart from that the Hussites were way too ethnical. Although, some heresies might be inspired in western Europe. I doubt that this would cater much to the Germans though.

I would imagine that besides Bohemia and Moravia, the Hussite religion would likely spread into Poland, Lithuania, and Hungary. It might have particular success in Bosnia as the Kristjanis declined. The Ukraine and Bulgaria might also be possibly outlets, though I doubt it would spread much into northern Russia. Given the general discontent with the Church in parts of Northern Germany and the English countryside (see Lolladry) an emerging Hussite tradition might grab hold there. I could also see some potential in France, the Beneleux, and Spain, though in those cases it would most likely remain small persecuted. Finally, should the Hussite doctrine spread into the English countryside and from there into the Scottish lowlands and be suppressed by the English monarchy and nobility, it could be likely that a following would develop among the Scottish independentist nobles and Anglophobic peasentry.[/quote]

The geography, perhaps, and certainly things beyond, say, 1683; unfortunately, I needed to check out a book on the Hussite Wars to fire off any real arguments of substance here.

I was actually thinking more along the lines of developments in the Balkans and the Byzantine Empire, but if you can contribute to the Hussite tract, thank you!

A war with the Hussites on the defending end is however one of the most likely things; Martin V did declare a crusade against them in March 1420, after all. Even without Martin on the papal throne, I still think that the Catholics, in order to retain at least some form of legitimacy (after all, they were trying to get that union of the Churches with the Orthodox, too - too bad Constantinople fell with Constantine XI, or they would have had actual support in that sphere), would have launched some kind of operations against them. Perhaps the Wars wouldn't be pursued as stringently without someone of Sigismund's caliber in control of the Empire, especially with Ziska able to smash any attacks with the wagenberg, but as soon as Ziska dies from whatever cause, the Catholics will doubtless gain supremacy and smash the remaining Hussites, just as in OTL.

Martin V did declare a crusade, but that was mainly because of the urging of Sigismund. In general, Martin V was extraordinarily tolerant (the main reason he was elected pope at Constance). I mean, he granted rights to the Jews in his territories for heaven's sake! Without pressure from Sigismund, Mark V would most likely not have declared a Crusade, or at least would have waited so long that the Hussites would have grown powerful enough that most competition would be scared off.

 

[das]

However, without Sigismund at the helm maneuvering the whole thing, a large, focused campaign as seen in the OTL Hussite Campaigns is unlikely in my mind.

The Teutonic Grandmaster, or the Pope, or whoever becomes the Holy Roman Emperor can always coordinate efforts instead, you know.

I would imagine that besides Bohemia and Moravia, the Hussite religion would likely spread into Poland, Lithuania, and Hungary. It might have particular success in Bosnia as the Kristjanis declined. The Ukraine and Bulgaria might also be possibly outlets, though I doubt it would spread much into northern Russia. Given the general discontent with the Church in parts of Northern Germany and the English countryside (see Lolladry) an emerging Hussite tradition might grab hold there. I could also see some potential in France, the Beneleux, and Spain, though in those cases it would most likely remain small persecuted. Finally, should the Hussite doctrine spread into the English countryside and from there into the Scottish lowlands and be suppressed by the English monarchy and nobility, it could be likely that a following would develop among the Scottish independentist nobles and Anglophobic peasentry.

Well I suspect that any English or French movements would wither away with time; rather like the Waldenses (though these actually "survived").

 

[Israelite9191]

Not at all. Firstly, the Hussites had many more leaders than just Zizka; hell, George of Podebrady was a Hussite, and he was the goddamn king even after the wars had ended. Secondly, here their strategic situation is much better; Hungary is more interested in conquering the Balkans, while Poland is an ally. How long can the Hussites fight a one-front war when supported by Poland? Indefinitely, I think, especially as in this world they won't be so bickering.

I couldn't agree more. Also, if a Polish-Hungarian union did occur (I still believe it the most likely turn of events) the situation would be even more in favor of Hussite Bohemia surviving.

The Teutonic Grandmaster, or the Pope, or whoever becomes the Holy Roman Emperor can always coordinate efforts instead, you know.

Yes, they could coordinate the efforts, but no one would have been as effective as Sigismund. The whole success of the Hussite Wars in OTL depended on Sigismund's maneuvers. Anyone less capable, less, well, evil, and/or less driven would never have been able to do what Sigismund did. The wars would eventually take place, no doubt, they woud just be on a much smaller scale and with a much different sequence of events.

Well I suspect that any English or French movements would wither away with time; rather like the Waldenses (though these actually "survived").

Agreed. In France (and possibly Switzerland) I imagine it would look something like the OTL Heugenots; namely, a small but economically significant community persecuted and forced into exile with little lasting effect at home and much more abroad. In England, I imagine that it would bloom significantly in the countryside with the support of the Lolladrists, and the anti-clerical nobles in particular, before being crushed by some chain of events. The lasting effects in England itself would probably be minimal, but I imagine that Scotland might grab onto the sect as the Hussite doctrine really does seem to fit the Scotish persona. Further down the line the English king might revive Hussitism if something similar to the OTL Henry VIII events that lead to Anglicanism took place, but other than that I would think any influence in England would be minimal.

 

[LittleBoots]

Dachs, will you be working on the stats for the Anatolian Wars Alt-Hist? Thats the one I think I'll do. Either that or a fresh start random map with a secret backstory I've been thinking up, but I'm not yet certain which I want to run. Leaning heavily towards the alt-hist right now.

 

[Azale]

I know its a secret...but tell me the secret anyway. Is it neanderthals never went extinct or some nonsense like that?