Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
Its based on a Civ3 game on a world map 
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Alternate History Thread III
- Thread starter Luckymoose
- Start date
Since when? In mine, sure, but that's not much worse than OTL. das always seems to have a strong Ottoman Empire in his TLs - witness NES2 V and NES2 VI, as well as the DisNES II PoD, where the Ottomans were masters of the Indian Ocean and had control of almost all of the Balkans...and could easily outfight any one of their opponents, had they had only one. The Eurasian War TL has the Turks stronger than OTL this time, and the British Revolution TL - the only major exception in which the Turks are utterly destroyed - seems to me to be the only Ottomans-screwed-over TL.
Just sayin'.
North King
blech
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 18,165
No, what you're doing is like putting a French Monarchy's capital in Nantes. It just doesn't make sense. Richmond is where all the industry already is; it makes more sense for communication. And as for too far north, the real CSA didn't think so.
Dachs: I think the reason people get that impression is because a player Ottomans usually falls apart very quickly.
das
Regeneration In Process
Oh, France is very viable (otherwise it wouldn't have become a durable great power in the first place). It does tend to overcommit, however.
@das: In that earlier map why did Britain and Chile not go the whole hog on Argentina (the chile taking the northern mountain provinces and britain the rest) - that chunk Britain took is 50-60% of the total argentine population already and all of the industry and ability to fight back. If anything going the whole hog will make things more managable than not, esp if they bring in settlers.
I did consider that. Decided that it would be pushing things a bit too far, and that the British have many other commitments as it is, but I suppose that even had they not done it by 1900 they would do it by 1910.
Not at all. They are a weak and backwards German puppet, and much smaller than in OTL. You're probably thinking of Persia.
Still, wouldn't a "weaker" city as a capital make more sense in an unthreatened confederation? Like Washington D.C.
"Durable Great Power" and "World Hegemon" are two entirely different things; IMHO France is the one who's always overpowered. (Look at NES2 VI especially! They had no real rivals in anything at all ever, except for Symphony and Dis, who made much greater accomplishments in raising their nations the way they did..) I mean, fundamentally I don't have any particular liking for a superpowered France, that's all. (I also don't really much like a superpowered colonial Germany, either, but I can dismiss that one on nationalistic lines.
) There are many reasons why Napoleon, one of the greatest military minds in history, couldn't prop up France as the leader of Europe for very long (don't just give me the megalomaniacal bull****, France really wasn't going to win that one).Yeah, I am. Whoops. In any event, comparing the Republic of Turkey and the Ottomans is rather moot anyway.das said:
Richmond really was the only location that made any sense at all for the CSA capital after Virginia joined the war. "Too far north" and "proximity" really didn't have much of an effect on the decision - the works around Richmond worked well enough to stymie McClellan, and kept Grant at bay for a long time even during the period when the CSA was weakest. Conversely, the further back capital would allow less control over the military. The industrial and economic reasons are also fair - that area was the most developed in the CSA.das said:
das
Regeneration In Process
PoD-for-the-day (#12 - March 23rd, 2007): The 1801 conspiracy against Pavel I is thwarted, and the Tsar, now aware of his opposition, generally improves security and purges the court. Alexander I, whom Pavel suspected of conspiring against him and generally disliked in OTL, is removed from succession and imprisoned. In spite of a few rebellions, Pavel hangs on to power and pushes through various "enlightened" reforms, with the help of the Russian Freemasons, the Knights Hospitaller and the assorted Germans at his court. Law is codified, serfs are protected from excessive punishments and so forth. Also - again with the help of the Hospitallers - the fleet is built up considerably.
In foreign affairs, Pavel I finally secures his alliance with Napoleon, reaching an agreement to "dominate Europe between St. Petersburg and Paris"; in exchange for Pavel I's help against Britain, Austria and Prussia, Napoleon recognises Russian claims to Malta and promises to help against the Ottoman Empire. The Indian plan is mostly scrapped for now (as the Russian corps was annihilated in Central Asia); instead, preparations are made for a grand war in Europe. When the British attempted to ally with Sweden, the Russians invaded Finland, eventually overcoming the defenders. It was hoped that this, and some very explicit letters sent to Berlin and Vienna, would intimidate the rest of Europe into supporting the "entente", but it backfired, and a general European war commenced in 1805 with Britain, Sweden, Prussia, Austria, lesser German states and the Ottoman Empire on one side and France, Russia, Denmark-Norway, Spain, Bavaria and French satellites on the other. Although the Russian armies performed somewhat inadequately - in part because the Prussians and the Austrians had decided to defeat them first - they distracted the German rulers from the French threat long enough for Napoleon to rampage through the soon-to-be-obsolete Empire and sack Berlin. Soon after, the last Prussian and Austrian forces were broken in Poland, and the German states all surrendered. Sweden had crumbled as well by then, Russo-Danish forces having taken Stockholm. Lastly, Franco-Russian (and coerced Austrian) armies invade the Ottoman Empire, taking advantage of the rebellions rife there. Greece declares independence under a Bonaparte and Serbia under a Romanov, while the Russians take Constantinople (with French help).
The naval campaign was more complicated. While the Russo-Danish fleet succesfully protected Copenhagen, the British carried the day in the Atlantic and the Mediterranean, defeated Spanish, French and Russian fleets and protecting the Asian parts of the Ottoman Empire.
After that the war had somewhat died down, until 1808 when the Franco-Russian forces finally invaded the Middle East. They again failed to advance beyond Anatolia, but the Ottoman Empire crumbled and the British allied with Egypt and Qajar Persia (which expanded into Mesopotamia) instead, assisting them in landgrabs in their respective vicinities. Meanwhile, back in Europe, a continental blockade was introduced, and a general reordering occured as a result of a series of French and Russian treaties. A Bonaparte was put on the Spanish throne, prompting a civil war and a British intervention in Latin America in the support of local rebels; likewise in Netherlands ("the Kingdom of Holland"), though the British didn't know what to do about that one as they had already seized all the Dutch colonies they could find. The smaller German states were reorganised into a French client Confederation of the Rhine. Prussia, greatly diminished (all the lands west of the Elbe went to the Confederation), became a Russian client state, with large Russian garrisons. Austria lost much land as well, including Tyrolia (to the Confederation, or, more specifically, to Bavaria which incidentally assumed the predominant role with French assistance) and Voevodina (to Serbia), though it did get to keep its Illyrian possessions and to annex most of Bosnia. Serbia and Greece were consolidated as mentioned, dividing the parts of the Balkans not yet claimed by other powers among themselves. Both Prussia and Austria also lost their Polish lands as Poland was restored in pre-First Partition borders and in a "personal union" with Russia, though it was more of a very limited autonomy under St. Petersburg's control. Finland, the Danubean Principalities, Bulgaria, Anatolia and Thrace were annexed by Russia as well, though such a huge empire was virtually unmanageable and the Russians had to deal with a lot of revolts. The king of Sweden was forced to abdicate in favour of Denmark-Norway's Frederick VI. Italy was divided between the French, the French marshals-turned-kings and a few Bonapartes-turned-kings. Yet another unemployed relative of Napoleon's became King of Helvetia, though fortunately he had little to no power.
The British initiated a blockade of their own and grabbed what colonies they didn't grab yet (including Alaska and Argentina).
However, this new order was extremelly unstable. Social tensions grew; between the increasingly-popular conservative, nationalist and republican movements, the governments lost much of their support in just about all the social stratas; and the blockade was doing wonders to the economy of both Europe and Britain alike. The great powers were terribly overstretched, while corruption increased and the army, anxious yet inactive, detiriorated. By the end of the decade, the situation had become completely unbearable.
Early in 1811, Pavel I died. Then it all begun falling apart...
In foreign affairs, Pavel I finally secures his alliance with Napoleon, reaching an agreement to "dominate Europe between St. Petersburg and Paris"; in exchange for Pavel I's help against Britain, Austria and Prussia, Napoleon recognises Russian claims to Malta and promises to help against the Ottoman Empire. The Indian plan is mostly scrapped for now (as the Russian corps was annihilated in Central Asia); instead, preparations are made for a grand war in Europe. When the British attempted to ally with Sweden, the Russians invaded Finland, eventually overcoming the defenders. It was hoped that this, and some very explicit letters sent to Berlin and Vienna, would intimidate the rest of Europe into supporting the "entente", but it backfired, and a general European war commenced in 1805 with Britain, Sweden, Prussia, Austria, lesser German states and the Ottoman Empire on one side and France, Russia, Denmark-Norway, Spain, Bavaria and French satellites on the other. Although the Russian armies performed somewhat inadequately - in part because the Prussians and the Austrians had decided to defeat them first - they distracted the German rulers from the French threat long enough for Napoleon to rampage through the soon-to-be-obsolete Empire and sack Berlin. Soon after, the last Prussian and Austrian forces were broken in Poland, and the German states all surrendered. Sweden had crumbled as well by then, Russo-Danish forces having taken Stockholm. Lastly, Franco-Russian (and coerced Austrian) armies invade the Ottoman Empire, taking advantage of the rebellions rife there. Greece declares independence under a Bonaparte and Serbia under a Romanov, while the Russians take Constantinople (with French help).
The naval campaign was more complicated. While the Russo-Danish fleet succesfully protected Copenhagen, the British carried the day in the Atlantic and the Mediterranean, defeated Spanish, French and Russian fleets and protecting the Asian parts of the Ottoman Empire.
After that the war had somewhat died down, until 1808 when the Franco-Russian forces finally invaded the Middle East. They again failed to advance beyond Anatolia, but the Ottoman Empire crumbled and the British allied with Egypt and Qajar Persia (which expanded into Mesopotamia) instead, assisting them in landgrabs in their respective vicinities. Meanwhile, back in Europe, a continental blockade was introduced, and a general reordering occured as a result of a series of French and Russian treaties. A Bonaparte was put on the Spanish throne, prompting a civil war and a British intervention in Latin America in the support of local rebels; likewise in Netherlands ("the Kingdom of Holland"), though the British didn't know what to do about that one as they had already seized all the Dutch colonies they could find. The smaller German states were reorganised into a French client Confederation of the Rhine. Prussia, greatly diminished (all the lands west of the Elbe went to the Confederation), became a Russian client state, with large Russian garrisons. Austria lost much land as well, including Tyrolia (to the Confederation, or, more specifically, to Bavaria which incidentally assumed the predominant role with French assistance) and Voevodina (to Serbia), though it did get to keep its Illyrian possessions and to annex most of Bosnia. Serbia and Greece were consolidated as mentioned, dividing the parts of the Balkans not yet claimed by other powers among themselves. Both Prussia and Austria also lost their Polish lands as Poland was restored in pre-First Partition borders and in a "personal union" with Russia, though it was more of a very limited autonomy under St. Petersburg's control. Finland, the Danubean Principalities, Bulgaria, Anatolia and Thrace were annexed by Russia as well, though such a huge empire was virtually unmanageable and the Russians had to deal with a lot of revolts. The king of Sweden was forced to abdicate in favour of Denmark-Norway's Frederick VI. Italy was divided between the French, the French marshals-turned-kings and a few Bonapartes-turned-kings. Yet another unemployed relative of Napoleon's became King of Helvetia, though fortunately he had little to no power.
The British initiated a blockade of their own and grabbed what colonies they didn't grab yet (including Alaska and Argentina).
However, this new order was extremelly unstable. Social tensions grew; between the increasingly-popular conservative, nationalist and republican movements, the governments lost much of their support in just about all the social stratas; and the blockade was doing wonders to the economy of both Europe and Britain alike. The great powers were terribly overstretched, while corruption increased and the army, anxious yet inactive, detiriorated. By the end of the decade, the situation had become completely unbearable.
Early in 1811, Pavel I died. Then it all begun falling apart...
das
Regeneration In Process
In the second part, yes. In the first part, wouldn't say, though they did get a lot of lucky breaks.
Given the right strategy, it could have. I do agree that in the long-term odds were definitely stacked against it. The great world-wide conflicts - especially NW and WWII - are boring that way.
There was no war in the timeline in question; if anything, virtually all the CSS operations were conducted in the Carribean, so a more southern capital makes more sense for those reasons.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
PoD-for-the-day (#12 - March 23rd, 2007)
I liked this one.
I liked this one.
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
das
Regeneration In Process
They didn't figure it out yet, plus relations with the USA at least are difficult, while Latin America is war-wrecked. The British economy was seriously hurt by the blockade in OTL. The loss of trade with Russia alone was damaging.
Okay, Germans I have some issues with, Danes are a little out there, but BONAPARTES? If this is ever made into a NES and I take Greece before LittleBoots, then I'm definitely doing the same thing I did as Spain in NES2 IV....
You know, Pavel I was a bit megalomaniacal, but he wasn't mad...I don't think, anyway (does being scarily chivalric count as "mad"?). He also wasn't a complete fool - annexing all that land seems a tad...unrealistic, I suppose. I guess playing as the Hellenes in this game would be very interesting indeed...das said:
You really do need to return to modding, das - things really aren't the same without an NES2 somewhere around here. Definitely one of these TLs...
Abaddon
Deity
Is this thread for people to throw out potential alt hists, in order for other peopel to scrutinize if they are at all logical? Do many get beyond people proposing them.. and other people saying they are stupid?
Have you read the threads in their entirety, or are you simply criticizing those who spend time here?
Loads of althists have been made into NESes, although that seems to be dropping off of late. (DisNES II was absolutely fantastic - das seems to make most of his althist NESes out of Guess-the-PoD maps, and Thlayli made his TNES out of a later-fleshed-out idea that the althisting thread came up with - and a few current NESes are running off of das althists, like LuckNES. HarlNES is also running off one of his personal althists.) Nobody seems to want to use mine, though...makes me sad.
Oruc
Reactionary
Don't yours usually revolve around greece kicking everyones arse?
Abaddon
Deity
Im not criticizing anyone! Just pondering at the frequency in which they develop to fuition.
das
Regeneration In Process
His character is a matter of much debate, but large-scale annexations are definitely his style, and pretty much all of his grand plans involved large-scale untenable conquests (my favourite is the one with Madagascar).
One day possibly maybe. Nothing more definite yet, sorry.
Well, you didn't exactly carry any of your althists too far. Plus they were mostly set in less popular time periods (which is a darn shame, their unpopularity I mean).
It sometimes seems that way. (Yes, because no one else seems to want Greece winning anything at all.) The first one did have a stronger Roman Empire than OTL, but definitely less powerful than the Khwarezmians and the Holy Roman Empire - they needed Sadaqid help to even try to fight Khwarezm successfully, and still lost to the HRE even with Norman help. Macedon did end up quasi-losing to Rome in the second TL, which I never really finished; the Romans were definitely more powerful than OTL, though, while Macedon managed only to maintain the status quo. The Hellenistic Empire TL was basically a way to ensure more rapid Roman rise with the obvious eventual collapse of that Empire and the creation of a few Greek successor states in the East. This most recent one has Greece winning something else, too - World War I. I actually wrote it with a view to a more powerful Germany and Russia, though; Greece was just one of the best ways to get there.
I'm almost scared to write something pro-German with all of the people on this forum, actually. People also seem to have already linked me with Greco-Roman culture, so I might as well just go with it, despite definitely wanting to do more German stuff.
I did the first one for a hundred years!das said:
Yeah, I know...bloody weird of me.
LittleBoots
The Bloody Banner
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2006
- Messages
- 1,979
Dachs, I am (obviously) a fan of your alt-hists and have been planning to take one into a game this summer if I decide to try out modding (which is likely). So don't worry too much.
What you *should* worry about is me getting Greece before you in the Bonaparte alt-hist
Also, I say, write the pro-German stuff and everyone else be damned. Thats my personal opinion on these things. I would personally like to see it, especially given the myriad work done on a more successful France (which I appreciate as well, just be nice to see something new).
Just as long as the Turk isn't ever successful unless its for the purpose of overextending them making them ripe for a Greek victory, I'll be happy
What you *should* worry about is me getting Greece before you in the Bonaparte alt-hist
Also, I say, write the pro-German stuff and everyone else be damned. Thats my personal opinion on these things. I would personally like to see it, especially given the myriad work done on a more successful France (which I appreciate as well, just be nice to see something new).
Just as long as the Turk isn't ever successful unless its for the purpose of overextending them making them ripe for a Greek victory, I'll be happy
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
Who is anti-german on the forums? can't say I've noticed much of that...
