Alternate History Thread III

[das]

He did spend a lot of effort on Hungary already, and historically he was stubborn like that (as the Hussite Wars in particular show).

 

[Dachs]

Caligula, I'm still working on that update...having some difficulty thinking of butterflies for the Americas especially. Slogging away still, though, and ought be finished soon.

By the way, nice TL das. Setting more stage or cleaning up loose ends?

 

[das]

By the way, nice TL das. Setting more stage or cleaning up loose ends?

A little of both. Several tendencies mentioned will culminate in fairly epic wars before 1750; feel free to try and guess which.

 

[North King]

He did spend a lot of effort on Hungary already, and historically he was stubborn like that (as the Hussite Wars in particular show).

He had the support of several Catholic nations then. What does he have ITTL? His own lands. He might be stubborn, but I highly doubt he's stupid enough to go charging into a war that he can only lose.

 

[Israelite9191]

North King is exactly right. And besides, in OTL Sigismund actually didn't expend such great effort until the chance came to him. Sigismund was an opportunist who took advantage of situations already established, not someone who created opportunities. Also, there will be something of a backlash against the Hungarian monarchy in the next installation, though it will not involve Sigismund but rather another opportunistic relative.

 

[LittleBoots]

Caligula, I'm still working on that update...having some difficulty thinking of butterflies for the Americas especially. Slogging away still, though, and ought be finished soon.

No pressure, its all good. Care to throw out some of your ideas for American butterflies for discussion?

 

[Israelite9191]

Here is the next installment. Changes to previous installments are in green, the PoD is in blue. Comments, sugestions, criticisms, etc. are all welcomed. Also, I am having a hard time thinking of possible events regarding Lithuania, Russia, the Turks, and the Middle East. Any suggestions?

The Age of Elisabeth – Timeline​

1343 –
1.) Robert the Wise Angevine, King of Naples, King of Jerusalem, Count of Provence-Forcalquier becomes seriously ill.
2.) Elisabeth, Queen Mother of Hungary, arrives in Italy campaigning on behalf of her elder son, Louis I the Great Angevine, King of Hungary, Croatia, and Dalmatia to take the throne in place of her younger son Andrew, Duke of Calabria, heir to the Neapolitan throne.
3.) Robert dies.
4.) Pope Clement VI takes the side of Louis and Elisabeth over Andrew.
1344 –
1.) Louis I the Great Angevine, King of Hungary, is crowned King of Naples, King of Jerusalem, and Count of Provence-Forcalquier.
2.) Louis I and Stefan II Kotromanić, Ban of Bosnia, invade Zara declaring war on Venice. Zara is conquered and the Banate of Dalmatia is united with that of Bosnia as a reward to Kotromanić. The Republic of Ragusa is founded under Hungarian hegemony.
1345 – 1347 –
1.) Louis I, with significant aide from Kotromanić, campaign in the Herzegovinan principalities and Cumania (Wallachia and Moldavia) with significant success.
1347 –
1.) Kotromanić invades Serbia on pretenses of aiding dynastic relatives in Montenegro gain independence. Louis I joins and the War of Montenegrin Independence begins officially on May 20.
2.) Albania rises in revolt under Charles Angevine, Duke of Durazzo, cousin to Louis I of Hungary, and legal claimant to the Albanian throne.
3.) The Battle of the Zeta takes place on July 3. Combined Hungarian, Bosniak, Montenegran, and Albanian forces crush the Serb military.
4.) The Treaty of Belgrade is signed ending the war. The treaty is signed by a collective of Serb lords in place of Stefan Dušan, who has fled to exile in Bulgaria. Serbia becomes a Banate of Hungary under Charles, who also becomes the Prince of Albania.
5.) Balša I is crowned king of the newly independent Montenegro.
6.) Balša I and his three sons and heirs die under mysterious contexts. Kotromanić becomes the logical heir and is crowned king of Montenegro.
1349 –
1.) An assassination attempt organized by Charles I, Prince of Albania on the life of Louis I, who had only female heirs which would have allowed Charles to place a claim to the throne, is uncovered by Kotromanić. Charles is seized and executed by Hungarian forces and Louis I, the logical heir, takes the Albanian throne.
1351 –
1.) Louis I re-releases the Golden Bull of 1222, guaranteeing the rights of Hungarian nobility.
1352 –
1.) The Moldavian Voivodeship is founded out of Cummania by Louis I. Dragoş of Béltek Maramureş is sent by Louis I to establish a line of boundary against the Golden Horde. Dragoş continues the campaign extending Moldavia to the Dneister River.
1353 –
1.) Tvrtko I becomes Ban of Bosnia and King of Montenegro.
1354 –
1.) Byzantine Emperor John V Palaeologos appeals to Hungary for aide against the Ottomans. Louis I responds by sending a moderate force under Tvrtko, marking Hungarian entrance into the War of Adrianople.
1355 –
1.) Kazimierz Wielki III, King of Poland names Louis I, his nephew, as his successor.
2.) The War of Adrianople stalls and John V appeals for more help. Louis responds by sending another small army followed by a second soon there after.
1356 –
2.) The War of Ardrianople turns in favor of the Byzantines with The Fourth Battle of Adrianople. Most of the Hungarian forces, including Tvrtko, return home.
1358 –
1.) The War of Adrianople turns again, this time in favor of the Ottomans, with The Sixth Battle of Adrianople. John V does not request aide.
1359 –
1.) The Ottomans win the seemingly decisive Battle of Pentikion. John V seeks aide from Louis I but is denied.
2.) John V seeks aide again, pledging to hand over all Byzantine territory as far south as Kavala in Greece excepting the Golden Horn and Gallipoli. Louis I responds by personally leading a large force.
3.) Bâlc Maramureş assumes the Voivodeship of Moldavia.
4.) Bogdan of Cuhea raises a revolt in Moldavia. Bâlc flees into Transylvania and requests help from Esztergom, which sends a small force to prevent Bogdan from entering Transylvania, but nothing more.
5.) Proclamation of the first Orthodox Romanian Metropolitan Church in Wallachia.
1359 – 1360 –
1.) A series of decisive battles takes place between the Magyaro-Byzantine forces and the Ottomans culminating in The Eighth Battle of Adrianople. The Ottomans return to Anatolia.
1360 –
1.) Louis I redirects his attention and leads a large number of troops into Moldavia, crushing the fledgling rule of Bogdan and reinstating Bâlc as Vovoid. Bogdan flees to Walachia.
1361 –
1.) The Hungarian capital is moved by Louis I to Buda from Esztergom (Gran).
2.) Louis I invades Bulgaria.
1362 –
1.) Louis I defeats and captures Ivan Sratsimir, Tsar of Bulgaria, securing northern Bulgaria.
2.) Pope Urban V succeeds Pope Innocent VI in Avignon.
1363 –
1.) Byzantium wins the naval Battle of Megara against the Ottoman Turks.
2.) Epirus revolts against Byzantium, establishing a greater level of independence while the Byzantines are distracted defending against the Ottomans.
3.) Tvrtko invades and conquers Epirus, crowning himself Despot of Epirus.
1365 – 1370 –
1.) Louis I initiates a series of successful wars against Wallachia and Bulgaria. Wallachia is conquered in 1368, Bulgaria remains independent.
1366 –
1.) Decree of Turda negates nobility rights of the Orthodox Romanians in Transylvania, Hungary.
1369 –
1.) Jan Huss is born in Bohemia.
1370 –
1.) Kazimierz Wielki III, King of Poland, dies and Louis I the Great Angevine, King of Hungary, Croatia, and Dalmatia is crowned King of Poland.
2.) Pope Gregory XI succeeds Pope Urban V in Avignon.
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1371 –
1.) Tsar Ivan Shishman is crowned as co-emperor with his brother Ivan Stratsimir by their father Tsar Ivan Alexander, the supreme emperor. Bulgaria is significantly weakened by the split.
1372 –
1.) Louis I invades a weakened Bulgaria.
1373 –
1.) Ottomans defeat the Byzantines decisively at the naval Battle of Lesbos.
2.) Ottomans begin the invasion of Greece, landing forces on the mainland.
3.) Siege of Thesaloniki, John V Palaeologos requests aide from Louis I of Hungary, the request is denied as Hungary is tied up in Bulgaria.
1374 –
1.) Philip II of Taranto passes, leaving the Principality of Taranto and the Principality of Achaea to James of Baux.
2.) Mária of Hungary Angevine is betrothed to Sigismund of Luxembourg despite the wishes of Elisabeth of Bosnia Kotromanic, Queen Consort of Hungary and mother of Mária.
1374 – 1376
1.) Magyaro-Bulgarian War stalls with Hungary controlling the inner half of Bulgaria.
2.) The Ottoman invasion of Greece carries on with minimal Byzantine resistance but significant peasant uprising. John V requests help from Hungary several times but is denied. He also requests help from the West but is likewise denied.
1376 –
1.) Adronicus IV Palaeologos seizes the Byzantine throne, with the aide of Genoese merchants, from John V Palaeologos. Murad I Osman, Bey of the Ottoman Empire, intervenes restoring his ally John V to the throne.
1377 –
1.) The Avignon Papacy returns to Rome under the leadership of Pope Gregory XI at the behest of Catherine of Sienna.
2.) Treaty of Santorini signed ending the war between the Ottomans and Byzantines. Greece is handed over to the Ottomans and the Ottomans pledge to guarantee the independence of Constantinople under Byzantine rule.
3.) Pope Gregory XI condemns John Wycliffe.
4.) Władysław II Jagiello succeeds to the Lithuanian throne and becomes sole ruler.
5.) Polvdiv falls in late November. Bulgaria incorporated into the Hungarian Empire.
1378 –
1.) Johh Wyclif attempts to defend his theses before the English public.
2.) Holy Roman Emperor Charles IV of Luxembourg dies. His son Wenceslaus IV the Drunkard, Elector of Brandenburg, succeeds him as King of Bohemia and King of Germany. He is elected King of the Romans.
3.) Papacy permanently moved to Rome.
4.) Pope Urban VI elected Pope under pressure from the Roman mob.
5.) Antipope Clement VII elected at Fondi, establishes himself in Avignon. Western Schism begins.
6.) Louis I intervenes on behalf of Urban VI. He leads a large force into Italy while sending Tvrtko to lead a force in Provence, a holding of the Hungarian crown since merger with the Neapolitan crown, to besiege Avignon.
7.) France intervenes, sending a force to clash with the Hungarian one.
1379 –
1.) War of the Papal Schism continues with Hungarian and French forces clashing in Italy and Provence. Both sides make advances but neither is able to gain the upper hand.
2.) Radu I, titular Prince of Wallachia, and his son Dan I, titular heir to the Princedom of Wallachia, raise a revolt against Hungary. Forces under the loyal Bâlc Maramureş, Voivode of Modavia, are sent to suppress the rebellion. They meet moderate success before being forced to retreat by lack of supplies.
1380 –
1.) Battle of Milan takes place between Hungarian lead pro-Urban forces and French led pro-Clement forces. The battle ends in a draw with both sides retreating from Northern Italy to lick their wounds.
2.) The War of the Papal Schism continues in Provence with minor gains by Tvrtko.
1381 –
1.) The Peasants’ Revolt takes place in England. As a result Wyclif grows more unpopular among the elite.
2.) Kęstutis Alexander seizes the Grand Dukeship of Lithuania.
3.) The War of Chioggia comes to an end with Venice defeating Genoa.
4.) France launches a new offensive in Northern Italy. They are opposed by a weakened Venice.
5.) England enters the War of the Papal Schism in Northern France with a large invasion.
6.) Brittany revolts, siding with Pope Urban VI and joining England and Hungary.
7.) Second Battle of Milan takes place. French forces are soundly defeated by a Venice-lead alliance of pro-Urban Italian city states supported by Hungarian florins. France retreats from Italy.
8.) Battle of Kermartin takes place. Anglo-Breton forces defeat French forces.
9.) Battle of Évreux is fought between the English and French. French win a crushing victory through superior tactics. English retreat to stronger positions west of the Orne.
1382 –
1.) Battle of Orange is fought in Provence. Forces under the leadership of Tvrtko decisively crush French troops. Tvrtko marches on and lays siege to Avignon.
2.) Avignon falls. Clement VII and the rebel cardinals are executed en masse. Pope Urban VI is reinstated as the Holy Father for all of Catholic Christendom.
3.) Synod of London condemns the teaching of Wycliff.
4.) Treaty of Genoa signed by all involved parties. Provence is made a duchy independent of France, Brittany is made fully independent, and England takes control of much of northern France.
5.) Trieste donates itself to Hungary out of fear of being conquered by Venice.
6.) Louis I the Great Angevine, King of Hungary, Croatia, and Dalmatia, King of Naples, King of Jerusalem, Duke of Provence-Forcalquier, Prince of Albania, King of Poland, dies. His eldest daughter Mária inherits the throne. At the behest of her mother, Elisabeth of Bosnia, she immediately dismisses her betrothal to Sigismund. Elisabeth organizes Tvrtko’s placement as co-regent.
7.) Kęstutis Alexander, Grand Duke of Lithuania is taken prisoner and executed by the former Grand Duke, Władysław II Jagiełło, who regains the crown.
1383 –
1.) James Baux, Prince of Taranto and Prince of Achaea, dies. Mária seizes the principality of Taranto, a fief of Hungary. Charles II of Durazzo the Short Angevine inherits Achea.
2.) Stefan Tvrtko I Kotromanić, Ban of Bosnia and King of Montenegro and Mária wed at the urging of Elisabeth of Bosnia. Tvrtko receives the titles and holdings of Louis I.
3.) The Teutonic Crusades against Lithuania recommence.
4.) The Orthodox Romanian nobles in Transylvania are restored to their positions by Trvrtko.
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1384 –
1.) John Wyclif dies.
2.) Afyonkarahisar is secured. The Ottomans now rule all of western Anatolia.
1385 –
1.) Tvrtko sends Bâlc Maramureş, Voivode of Moldavia, to lead an invasion of Wallachia. After a serious of minor defeats he wins the decisive Battle of Târgovişte both Prince Dan I Basarab and his son Mircea I Basarab are killed in the fighting. The voivodeship is awarded to the Maramureş family for their service.
1386 – 1390 –
1.) Tvrtko and Maria institute a series of reforms, consolidating power in the Crown of St. Stephen and weakening the Hungarian nobility.
1388 –
1.) The Wyclif Bible completed.
2.) Mass persecution of Lollard followers of Wyclif’s teachings begins.
1389 –
1.) Pope Boniface IX succeeds Pope Urban VI in Rome.
1390 –
1.) Lords in southern Hungary raise a revolt demanding a re-issuing of the Golden Bull and an expansion of rights.
2.) Charles II the Short of Durazzo, Prince of Achea, begins secretly financing the rebels.
3.) Vytautas the Great Gediminaičiai, claimant to the Lithuanian Grand Dukeship the raises a revolt against the current Grand Duke, Jogaila Gediminaičiai Jagiellon in alliance with the Teutonic Order.
4.) Tvrtko leads an army into the south, engaging the rebels in several battles but makes little headway.
5.) Elisabeth of Bosnia, Queen Mother of Hungary, catches ill and dies.
1391 –
1.) The nobles secure several key positions.
2.) Charles of Durazzo reveals his intentions and begins sending Achaean troops to aide the rebels.
3.) Charles of Durazzo dies mysteriously, assassination is assumed and Elisabeth of Bosnia falls under suspicion.
4.) Vytautas allies with Muscovy.
5.) The Ottomans invade Achaea from their positions in the southern Peloponnesus. Achaea is slowly annexed into the Ottoman Empire, leaving all of Greece except the Duchy of Athens and some northern territory in Hungary under Ottoman rule.
1392 – 1393 –
1.) The nobles begin loosing ground to Royal forces under Tvrtko, until the last stand at the Battle of Hódvásárhely (modern Hódmezővásárhely, Csongrád, Hungary). The battle was short and the few forces that fought for the rebels in the battle mostly fled.
1392 –
1.) Vytautas defeats Jogaila and takes the Lithuanian throne.
1394 – 1396 –
1.) Tvrtko embarks on a second series of internal reforms eliminating defunct fiefs and reducing the number of noble titles. This includes the incorporation of Bosnia, Croatia, Dalmatia, and Montenegro into the holdings of the Crown of St. Stephen.
1396 –
1.) The uneasy peace between France and England of the Treaty of Genoa is shakily secured with the marriage of Richard II Plantagenet, King of England, Titular King of France, and Lord of Ireland to Isabella of Valois, Princess of France.
2.) Charles VI the Mad Valois, King of France invades Genoa.
3.) Genoa soundly defeats the invading French force. France is forced to pay significant reparations.
4.) Charles VI turns up dead in his bead in the royal palace, assassinated. He has no male heirs and only one living female heir, Isabella of Valois, Queen Consort of England.
1397 –
1.) War of French Succession breaks out upon the death of Charles VI. Louis de Valois, Duke of Orléans claims the throne as does Richard II, whose wife is the closest thing to an obvious heir.
2.) England invades France with the intention of securing the French throne for the Plantagenets. Burgundy and most of the French fiefs side with Louis de Valois, while Brittany and a few French fiefs, in particular ones with lesser power, side with Richard II. For the time being Provence, under Hungarian rule, remains neutral.
3.) Milan sends troops to aid Louis, who is married to the duke’s daughter.
4.) Genoa and Venice, in a surprise alliance, invade Milanese territory. Milan is destroyed and the alliance marches on to France
5.) English troops defeat Valois troops at the Battle Lisieux, securing northern France up to the Seine.
6.) The Ottoman Empire finishes the conquest of Anatolia up to the Black Sheep and White Sheep Turkomans.
1398 –
1.) English win the Battle of Diepe. All of Normandy is now under English control.
2.) Anglo-Breton forces are defeated by Burgundian forces in the Battle of Batz-sur-Mer. Breton borders are pushed up to Nantes itself.
3.) Genoese and Venetian troops march across the Alps to attack Orléans from behind. They are confronted by a Valois army and are soundly defeated.
4.) Teutonic Order raids into Lithuanian territory resume.
1399 –
1.) The war quiets down considerably for several months with both sides gathering forces.
2.) An extraordinarily large force of English, along with Genoese and Venetian supporters, arrives in Rouen’s docks. The force begins marching for Paris.
3.) Louis diverts vast amounts of troops towards Paris in order to confront English forces.
4.) The forces confront each other at The Battle of Argeneuil. The battle is long, the forces involved tremendous in number, and the list of casualties never-ending, but the English emerge victorious over the Valois by a seeming stroke of luck. The English march on to secure Paris.
5.) Provencal forces, under the leadership of Tvrtko, launch a surprise attack against Languedoc and southern French territory. Burgundy is simply to weak to defend itself and does not put up more than a small fight.
6.) After securing southern France Tvrtko happily offers to moderate a peace between the English alliance and the Valois faction.
7.) Mária Angevine, Queen Consort of Hungary, dies of natural causes.
8.) Battle of the Vorskla River won by the Golden Horde against Lithuania, which was led by Vytautas.
9.) Warlike John V the Conqueror Montfort, Duke of Brittany, dies, his peaceful son John VI the Wise Montfort ascends to the throne.

 

[Israelite9191]

1400 –
1.) Treaty of Nantes signed. Richard II secures northern France, including Paris, and the title of King of France. Louis is given the title Grand Duke of France and sovereignty over the remnants of the French Kingdom. Provence is expanded to include all of southern France excluding English Bordeaux. Brittany is returned to pre-war borders and the title of Duke of Brittany changed to Grand Duke of Brittany to reflect the fully independent nature of the state.
2.) Richard II returns to England, where an angry and officially exiled Henry Bolingbroke has him imprisoned and seizes his crown and titles.
3.) Welsh rebellion under Owain Glyndŵr begins.
4.) A series of squabbles over the Holy Roman Emperorship results with Wenceslaus the Drunkard Luxembourg, King of Bohemia, King of the Germans, and King of the Romans being deposed in favor of Rupert III, Elector Palatine, Count Palatine Zweibrücken, and King of the Germans.
5.) Timur defeats the Ottomans and Egyptians to capture Damascus.
6.) Timur conquers the Black Sheep Turkomans and Jalayirid Dynasty. The leaders of both seek safety among the Ottomans.

 

[Swissempire]

Good again but

1390- 5.) Elisabeth of Bosnia, Queen Mother of Hungary, catches ill and dies.
1391 –
3.) Charles of Durazzo dies mysteriously, assassination is assumed and Elisabeth of Bosnia falls under suspicion.

I'm glad i got to help

 

[das]

And besides, in OTL Sigismund actually didn't expend such great effort until the chance came to him. Sigismund was an opportunist who took advantage of situations already established, not someone who created opportunities.

I do believe that he did try and exploit his opportunities quite well. He did learn Hungarian (and Polish, when he wanted to take the Polish throne), and got accustomed with local traditions. That does imply some degree of patient preparation before the opportunistic action.

Hmm, what does the boldened text mean exactly? Was it supposed to be green?

1.) The uneasy peace between France and England of the Treaty of Genoa is shakily secured with the marriage of Richard II Plantagenet, King of England, Titular King of France, and Lord of Ireland to Isabella of Valois, Princess of France.

Err, so the French, exhausted, sign peace with the English... and attack an English ally. Fun. But I suppose that he is "the Mad" for a reason...

4.) Genoa and Venice, in a surprise alliance, invade Milanese territory. Milan is destroyed and the alliance marches on to France

Unlikely allies indeed... Plus: Venice has no borders with Milan, and Milan is by far the foremost Italian military power at the time. How would the Venetians and the Genoese defeat them so thoroughly?

And what could they possibly gain from "marching on to France"? Or from attacking Milan for that matter; though Venice is more involved in Italian affairs than in OTL, the maritime affairs still do hold primacy for both cities, I believe. There is simply too little to gain from very expensive and risky land campaigns.

5.) English troops defeat Valois troops at the Battle Lisieux, securing northern France up to the Seine.

Didn't they secure northern France already, during the Papal War?

5.) Provencal forces, under the leadership of Tvrtko, launch a surprise attack against Languedoc and southern French territory.

Why would they do that? I fail to see any real motivation for them - neither from the Hungarian nor from the Provencal perspective.

5.) Timur defeats the Ottomans and Egyptians to capture Damascus.

What would the Ottomans be doing in Damascus?

An interesting timeline nonetheless; eager to see what you would do in the early 15th century.

Also, I am having a hard time thinking of possible events regarding Lithuania, Russia, the Turks, and the Middle East. Any suggestions?

1) Lithuania having been defeated in the east as in OTL will likely turn west; the Jagiellons would do their best to try and reclaim Poland (and personally I estimate their chances to be good; Poland in general has a tendency of switching dynasties, and its nobles are likely to be concerned enough by the rebounding strenght of the Teutonic Order to cement an alliance with Lithuania by choosing a Lithuanian monarch after the present one days).

Alternatively, Lithuania could concentrate on the eastern direction, possibly signing some sort of a tributary agreement with the Teutons (or maybe assembling a coalition to hold them at bay). The eastern direction implies either renewed military expansion, either closer ties with Russia (intermarriage, possible conversion to Orthodoxy - not as unlikely as it sounds, Lithuanian Catholicism is young and a result of Polish influence, and the Russian influence was stronger at this point, if only because Orthodox Russians were the objective majority within the Grand Duchy - and possible personal union, as was seriously proposed on at least one OTL 16th century occasion in spite of Lithuania having by then switched towards a Polish orientation).

Those are just general tendencies. Basically Lithuania has to choose between the West and the East, and between diplomacy/intrigue and military campaigning. Ofcourse, in the end there shall be a little of all four.

2) Muscovy is already established as the predominant Russian power, but its perspectives are still uncertain. The other Russian states, such as Novgorod and Tver, are conspiring against the Veliky Knyaz with local feudals and foreign powers; the favour with the Golden Horde has been lost as Dmitriy Donskoy's antics, and only the former's instability and weakness had allowed Muscovy to get away comparatively scot-free; Lithuania is on the march eastwards, and still a likely competitor for the unification of Russia. Also there is the Teutonic Order, but it had mostly turned away from Russia by now. The ripple effect will naturally affect the relations with Lithuania first; the exact manner of that effect mostly depends on the Lithuanian actions. Note that at present Muscovy is a Lithuanian ally, as you had mentioned; if things are as in OTL, then Vytautas' daughter is the Knyazhna, though that doesn't really mean much.

3) The Ottomans are clearly busy consolidating their Balkan gains. Conflicts with the Italian powers, especially Venice, are possible; same with potentially discontent Byzantines. There might also be some problems with the Hungarians. HOWEVER, it would appear that conflict with Tamerlane has already begun, and if Tamerlane does not get distracted elsewhere then this shall become the priority for the Ottomans. The odds are ofcourse in Tamerlane's favour, but an althistorical outcome is not strictly impossible. The lack of the Ottoman troops in the northern Balkans (or besieging Constantinople, as in OTL) might work for them, as they would be less overstretched and will have less trouble redeploying troops to face the invader. I suppose it could go either way.

4) Not very althistorical beyond Turkey yet, unless you decide to alter the outcome of the Turkish-Timurid War, in which case the Timurd Empire would fall to infighting. Not sure if that will have too great an effect on lands outside of Anatolia (where the Ottomans would obviously be much better off than in OTL).

Just my "two cents", though this is probably longer than what you wanted.

 

[Swissempire]

Timur in the Levant! Timur in the Levant!!!!

Also, just don't have Timur turn his attention to China and let him build up his Empire in Central Asia and the Middle East. And then have him define a CLEAR sucessor, preferably the Samarkand line, because they were better.

 

[ThomAnder]

Timur in the Levant! Timur in the Levant!!!!

Also, just don't have Timur turn his attention to China and let him build up his Empire in Central Asia and the Middle East. And then have him define a CLEAR sucessor, preferably the Samarkand line, because they were better.

Wouldn't it be interesting if Timur actually survived his campaign against China and recreate a north/south situation in Asia again?

 

[Israelite9191]

I do believe that he did try and exploit his opportunities quite well. He did learn Hungarian (and Polish, when he wanted to take the Polish throne), and got accustomed with local traditions. That does imply some degree of patient preparation before the opportunistic action.

Yes, but obviously, I am of the opinion that it is not enough.

Hmm, what does the boldened text mean exactly? Was it supposed to be green?

No, it's just a screw up from the computer reformating the word file to display in CFC.

Err, so the French, exhausted, sign peace with the English... and attack an English ally. Fun. But I suppose that he is "the Mad" for a reason...

Exactly. He is, and I don't say this lightly, perhaps the most schizophrenic ruler in European history (which is, of course, a case study in large scale incest among the leadership).

Unlikely allies indeed... Plus: Venice has no borders with Milan, and Milan is by far the foremost Italian military power at the time. How would the Venetians and the Genoese defeat them so thoroughly?

Luck, and the fact that, if you noticed, Milan sent most of their forces to aid the Valois alliance.

And what could they possibly gain from "marching on to France"? Or from attacking Milan for that matter; though Venice is more involved in Italian affairs than in OTL, the maritime affairs still do hold primacy for both cities, I believe. There is simply too little to gain from very expensive and risky land campaigns.

In this NES Venice has been largely pushed out of the Adriatic much earlier by an expanding and powerful Hungary. They thus must turn towards Italy even more. As for France, they were trying to gain the favor of the next French king, and thus greater power in the Western Mediterranean, something they would have wanted desperately after being pushed out of the Adriatic. As for Genoa, they would also have wanted any chance to gain more power in the West Med, especially after experiencing the begining of a gradual decline after Venetian victories over them (in OTL these would be permanent and fatal).

Didn't they secure northern France already, during the Papal War?

Only up to the Orne, which is significantly west of the Seine running through Caene flowing into the ocean just barely east of the Cotentin Peninsula. Strategically and Geopolitically, this is a vastly important distinction.

Why would they do that? I fail to see any real motivation for them - neither from the Hungarian nor from the Provencal perspective.

Tvrtko was a very ambitious man, and not one to sit idle. If he saw any real way of gaining power, he would have taken almost any path. If you notice, Provence initially remains out of the war specifically because of hesitations, but eventually the lure is simply to great.

What would the Ottomans be doing in Damascus?

Don't ask me, go back in time and ask them. This was an OTL event that I mention because it is relevant, as the Ottomans are a directly affected player.

An interesting timeline nonetheless; eager to see what you would do in the early 15th century.

Thank you. I'm looking forward (kind of) towards shifting through all of the many religious, and political problems of the early 1400's

1) Lithuania having been defeated in the east as in OTL will likely turn west; the Jagiellons would do their best to try and reclaim Poland (and personally I estimate their chances to be good; Poland in general has a tendency of switching dynasties, and its nobles are likely to be concerned enough by the rebounding strenght of the Teutonic Order to cement an alliance with Lithuania by choosing a Lithuanian monarch after the present one days).

I actualy don't believe Poland has been ruled by Jagiellons yet, especially as Jagiellon has only died very recently and the marriage between Jadwiga and the Lithuanians has never occured in TTL, and in fact Jadwiga never takes the Polish throne in TTL. As for the Teutons, they may may be at their height, but they are on the road towards decline at this point, and I definately do not see the animosity between the two subsiding any time soon.

Alternatively, Lithuania could concentrate on the eastern direction, possibly signing some sort of a tributary agreement with the Teutons (or maybe assembling a coalition to hold them at bay). The eastern direction implies either renewed military expansion, either closer ties with Russia (intermarriage, possible conversion to Orthodoxy - not as unlikely as it sounds, Lithuanian Catholicism is young and a result of Polish influence, and the Russian influence was stronger at this point, if only because Orthodox Russians were the objective majority within the Grand Duchy - and possible personal union, as was seriously proposed on at least one OTL 16th century occasion in spite of Lithuania having by then switched towards a Polish orientation).

This I like. I was thinking something along the eastward expansion lines, but that puts it in better perspective. Also, for adoption of Eastern Orthodoxy, it should be noted that in TTL the Lithuanians are still Polytheistic as the marriage and resulting mass baptism between Jadwiga and the Lithuanians never occurs. Thus, I would see a Lithuania-Russia even more likely. Now, I must ask, which of the Russian principalities do you think most likely for union with Lithuania? I am no expert on Russian history, while you seem to have an expertise in it, so please, your advice is highly regarded.

2) Muscovy is already established as the predominant Russian power, but its perspectives are still uncertain. The other Russian states, such as Novgorod and Tver, are conspiring against the Veliky Knyaz with local feudals and foreign powers; the favour with the Golden Horde has been lost as Dmitriy Donskoy's antics, and only the former's instability and weakness had allowed Muscovy to get away comparatively scot-free; Lithuania is on the march eastwards, and still a likely competitor for the unification of Russia. Also there is the Teutonic Order, but it had mostly turned away from Russia by now. The ripple effect will naturally affect the relations with Lithuania first; the exact manner of that effect mostly depends on the Lithuanian actions. Note that at present Muscovy is a Lithuanian ally, as you had mentioned; if things are as in OTL, then Vytautas' daughter is the Knyazhna, though that doesn't really mean much.

Hmm, so a Moscow driven into an alliance/union with Lithuania in order to defeat the surrounding principalities? Very interesting...

3) The Ottomans are clearly busy consolidating their Balkan gains. Conflicts with the Italian powers, especially Venice, are possible; same with potentially discontent Byzantines. There might also be some problems with the Hungarians. HOWEVER, it would appear that conflict with Tamerlane has already begun, and if Tamerlane does not get distracted elsewhere then this shall become the priority for the Ottomans. The odds are ofcourse in Tamerlane's favour, but an althistorical outcome is not strictly impossible. The lack of the Ottoman troops in the northern Balkans (or besieging Constantinople, as in OTL) might work for them, as they would be less overstretched and will have less trouble redeploying troops to face the invader. I suppose it could go either way.

Well, I would think that the loss of the Jannisaries, as well as Timur's nearly unbeatable status as a conquerer, might balance out the lack of overstretching in Europe. Although, conflict with Venice does seem very likely, especially in Crete. Hmm, perhaps an Ottoman Empire redirected towards Mediterranean naval power eventually coming into direct conflict with Northern Italy and Mamluke Egypt?

4) Not very althistorical beyond Turkey yet, unless you decide to alter the outcome of the Turkish-Timurid War, in which case the Timurd Empire would fall to infighting. Not sure if that will have too great an effect on lands outside of Anatolia (where the Ottomans would obviously be much better off than in OTL).

Hmm, good point. I don't think I will change the outcame of the Timurid War, though, as I really don't see the Ottomans finding the power to change Timur's course.

Just my "two cents", though this is probably longer than what you wanted.

The longer the better when it comes to answering my questions.

 

[das]

Timur in the Levant! Timur in the Levant!!!!

Also, just don't have Timur turn his attention to China and let him build up his Empire in Central Asia and the Middle East. And then have him define a CLEAR sucessor, preferably the Samarkand line, because they were better.

Wouldn't it be interesting if Timur actually survived his campaign against China and recreate a north/south situation in Asia again?

NO! Let him die a needlessly graphic death at Ankara!

I may generally like Tamerlane, but that is getting way too cliche.

Luck, and the fact that, if you noticed, Milan sent most of their forces to aid the Valois alliance.

That too is obviously a bit unmotivated (on such a scale - not the intervention itself). Either way, do notice that Milan is an extensive realm, with several large and very well-fortified cities. The population would naturally form levies. I don't think that the Genoese and the Venetians have any chances of taking so many cities. They just aren't land powers.

As for France, they were trying to gain the favor of the next French king, and thus greater power in the Western Mediterranean, something they would have wanted desperately after being pushed out of the Adriatic.

How would the much-weakened France be of influence in the Mediterranean? If they want to strenghthen their hold on the Western Mediterranean, wouldn't Aragon be far more important (whether as an ally or as a threat)?

Tvrtko was a very ambitious man, and not one to sit idle. If he saw any real way of gaining power, he would have taken almost any path. If you notice, Provence initially remains out of the war specifically because of hesitations, but eventually the lure is simply to great.

But intervention in France makes no sense at all. Why won't he campaign in Italy instead, which would provide for a much more integrated empire (a vital concern for many rulers in this age)? The conquest of Southern France would greatly harm the empire as a whole, as it would be an extensive and at the same time virtually untenable territory.

Don't ask me, go back in time and ask them. This was an OTL event that I mention because it is relevant, as the Ottomans are a directly affected player.

Why would they still do that here?

I actualy don't believe Poland has been ruled by Jagiellons yet, especially as Jagiellon has only died very recently and the marriage between Jadwiga and the Lithuanians has never occured in TTL, and in fact Jadwiga never takes the Polish throne in TTL.

Still, they obviously have many ties with Poland.

Now, I must ask, which of the Russian principalities do you think most likely for union with Lithuania?

At present things are more than a bit unclear. However, Muscovy is a natural target; the monarch there, as already mentioned, has a Lithuanian wife, and in OTL after his death a confusing succession war begun. For a Lithuania more interested in eastern expansion, a more ambitious stance in the "Feudal War" would be a probability.

If Muscovy remains unconquered, then we would have Novgorod; as its situation in the struggle with Muscovy grew increasingly desperate, the Republic did try to turn towards Lithuania (I think there was even a vassalship agreement, later in the 15th century), and the Novgorodian tradition of inviting other Russian nobles to act as princes in time of trouble could be made to work for Lithuania as well. Then, if a Novgorodian-Lithuanian personal union is arranged, an unified campaign against Muscovy could be launched. That would have natural allies in Tver and possibly the Golden Horde, both traditional enemies of Moscow. The exact time is hard to determine, but there wre multiple opportunities throughout the 15th Century.

Hmm, so a Moscow driven into an alliance/union with Lithuania in order to defeat the surrounding principalities? Very interesting...

Well, that is also a possibility. Lithuania would either unite with Muscovy to defeat its neighbours, either unite with Novogorod and ally with Muscovy's neighbours to defeat Muscovy. All doable as long as the Lithuanians maintain their eastwards focus.

Well, I would think that the loss of the Jannisaries

That alone would drive the Ottomans to strenghthen other kinds of troops. Especially timarli cavalry. I'd say that these might prove more effective against Tamerlane than the Janissaries (who made a pretty poor showing in OTL).

 

[Azale]

Ok das, as a backup plan incase panda continues to take forever, what PoD's of yours would you like someone ELSE other than yourself to do?

 

[das]

Eurasian War, as usual.

 

[Dachs]

I dibs Austria.

 

[Israelite9191]

Good again but


I'm glad i got to help

Hmm, that was a mistake. Elisabeth should not be dead yet, as her OTL death was most likely an asassination aranged by Sigismund. Thanks.

NO! Let him die a needlessly graphic death at Ankara!

I may generally like Tamerlane, but that is getting way too cliche.

Agreed

That too is obviously a bit unmotivated (on such a scale - not the intervention itself). Either way, do notice that Milan is an extensive realm, with several large and very well-fortified cities. The population would naturally form levies. I don't think that the Genoese and the Venetians have any chances of taking so many cities. They just aren't land powers.

Things in history, especially in this period of dynastic and city rivalries, don't always make obvious sense, so bleh. Anywho, there victories in Milan can be attributed to luck, and to the fact that Venice's vast fortunes over the past many years since being forced into a much lesser position in the Adriatic have had to be spent somewhere, and land power is always a good start.

How would the much-weakened France be of influence in the Mediterranean? If they want to strenghthen their hold on the Western Mediterranean, wouldn't Aragon be far more important (whether as an ally or as a threat)?

The bet is that by weakening France and finding favor with whoever is the king of the weakened France Genoa and Venice will be able to come in and take France's place in the Western Mediterranean. You are right that Aragon might be a bigger concern, but if you notice Aragon is not having a dynastic crsis at this moment.

But intervention in France makes no sense at all. Why won't he campaign in Italy instead, which would provide for a much more integrated empire (a vital concern for many rulers in this age)? The conquest of Southern France would greatly harm the empire as a whole, as it would be an extensive and at the same time virtually untenable territory.

Like most rulers at this point, and really most rulers in general, Tvrtko is an opportunist (if an oddly moral opportunist). France is in crisis and the vast wealth of its south are easily within his grasp. Tvrtko is merely recognising an opportunity and taking it. Now, don't worry, the next Hungarian king is not going to be quite as effective as either Tvrtko or Louis, and this little overextension into France will come back to haunt him.

Why would they still do that here?

Because the Ottomans are still interested in the Mid East (maybe even more so), still friends with the Egyptians (though perhaps not for long), and still vastly threatened by Timur.

Still, they obviously have many ties with Poland.

There are ties with Poland, but these ties aren't nearly as great as in OTL. Basically, the lack of a Jadwiga on the throne and the continuation of Hungarian-Polish union has prevented a Poland-Lithuania union in TTL, at least for now.

At present things are more than a bit unclear. However, Muscovy is a natural target; the monarch there, as already mentioned, has a Lithuanian wife, and in OTL after his death a confusing succession war begun. For a Lithuania more interested in eastern expansion, a more ambitious stance in the "Feudal War" would be a probability.

Hmm, I must read up on this "Feudal War".

If Muscovy remains unconquered, then we would have Novgorod; as its situation in the struggle with Muscovy grew increasingly desperate, the Republic did try to turn towards Lithuania (I think there was even a vassalship agreement, later in the 15th century), and the Novgorodian tradition of inviting other Russian nobles to act as princes in time of trouble could be made to work for Lithuania as well. Then, if a Novgorodian-Lithuanian personal union is arranged, an unified campaign against Muscovy could be launched. That would have natural allies in Tver and possibly the Golden Horde, both traditional enemies of Moscow. The exact time is hard to determine, but there wre multiple opportunities throughout the 15th Century.

I was contemplating a Novgorod-Lithuania union, but I hadn't thought it likely (not sure why anymore). I suppose I will have to reconsider that.

That alone would drive the Ottomans to strenghthen other kinds of troops. Especially timarli cavalry. I'd say that these might prove more effective against Tamerlane than the Janissaries (who made a pretty poor showing in OTL).

Very true, but I don't think the timarli cavalry could ever overcome Timur's hordes, and more importantly I don't think any Ottoman military leader, or really any military leader, of the time could overcome Timur.

 

[Azale]

Eurasian War, as usual.

Ahhh....ok, I'll look for it and read it again.

I know your probably to busy to do stats....I'll do them and just require you to look over them real quick like

 

[Israelite9191]

I have changed the Italian alliance slightly to be based around Florence and Bologna, traditional land powers and enemies of Milan, joined by Genoa and Venice who hope to join the war and reap the benefits in Italy and the Western Mediterranean.