Alternate History Thread III
- Thread starter Luckymoose
- Start date
Insane_Panda
Deity
America, in 1900, had like 10 Divisions.
In 2007, there are over 100. There is 150,000 men in Iraq alone.
In 2007, there are over 100. There is 150,000 men in Iraq alone.
Symphony D.
Deity
WRONG!!! [/Lex Luthor]
For frak's sake people, the United States uses a freaking volunteer military. It doesn't just miraculously have a million infantry sitting around. It has around two million people in the entire military, tops. And most of those do support, logistics, administration, maintenance... active ground combat (as in, those dudes who shoot guns at people) is not more than 400,000. In WWII it took 13 men just to keep one man in the field shooting a gun. That number isn't all that much better today, though it is smaller. My estimation of Reserves and National Guard might be on the low end, but with all of them active and fielded you would probably still not reach over 900,000. The reason the United States is powerful is all that additional junk it has (see the list) and its ability to call up tens of millions of people should it ever find itself in a really bad spot.
In this day and age massive infantry armies are ********. I dare say using a simple Division system to model them is likewise ********.
If you're going to bother to run a modern setting you should bother to do it well and accomodate for the things it requires, not just throw some generic ruleset for industrial settings onto it and call it a day.If you are resolved to use such something so simplistic you should at the very least introduce an "Equipment" level into the Military units (just like "Training") and make it about twice as expensive to upgrade as Training, because otherwise your military system pretty much ignores... all of the military technology of the past 50 years (OTL or ATL) and its rather uneven distribution patterns.
The Strategos
Thanatos
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2002
- Messages
- 1,175
The Eternal Wait: Religions
OCC: First part can be found here. Yes I realize Judaism receives a disportionate amount of space, but since it is my story, I will write about what I want, so there
. I also realize it isn't the smoothest prose in the world, for which I apologize. It is also choppy regarding what gets attention and what doesn't, so if there are any questions, feel free to ask and they will be answered.Judea
Unarguably one of the watershed moments in the history of Judaism was the Jewish Revolt. In hindsight, the revolt seems inevitable. Since the first occupation, Rome had never understood the Jewish mind, their cultural of tolerance and plurality never could grasp the Jewish fanatical monotheism. To these religious differences were added all kinds of other traditional ingredients for rebellion, ethnic pride, overbearing taxes, inept rule. Thus, the province of Judea seemed to be a lake of lamp oil, waiting only for a small spark to be entirely engulfed in flames.
The spark erupted when a group of Greeks sacrificed some pigeons before a Jewish synagogue in Caesarea. This act of defilement was used by the zealots to fan the flames of rebellion, so much so that even such a notable figure as the High Priest led an attack against the Romans. However, after winning early victories against the surprised Romans, the rebels were pushed from northern Judea by fresh Roman reinforcements, eventually being reduced to several strongholds, the most important being Jerusalem.
As the Romans besieged the city, several factions within it started fighting with each other, the most important of which were the Sicarii led by Simon Bar Giora, the zealots led by Eleazar ben Simon, the Giscalans led by John of Giscala, and the Pharisee party led by Yohanan ben Zakkai. Early on in the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans, the first three groups attempted to expel the Pharisee party, whose enthusiasm about the revolt had always been lukewarm at best. However, these three groups had underestimated the popular support of the Pharisees, and their attempted expulsion backfired as instead, the Pharisees barricaded themselves near the Temple Mount. As the other three groups continued to fight amongst themselves, the Pharisaical party continued to grow from those fleeing the brutal civil war waged between the other groups. In fact, there numbers swelled to such an extent, that they were able to launch a successful attack against the Temple Mount, completely occupying a significant portion of it. It was at this time, that Yohanan ben Zakkai was approached by Josephus, a Pharisee who was with the Romans, with a peace proposal. In this proposal, the area the Pharisees controlled, including the entirety of the Temple, would be spared if the Pharisees would let the Romans into the city. Tired of the war, the Pharisees agreed, and so, with Jewish support from inside Jerusalem, the Romans attacked and took the city, leaving the Temple and the Pharisees intact, but destroying and enslaving virtually everything else.
In the aftermath, the religious landscape of Judaism drastically changed. Previously, the three dominant religious parties of Judaism had been the Sadducees, the Essenes, and the Pharisees. The hardest hit by the revolt were the Sadducees who drew their support mainly from the aristocracy and priesthood. The wealthy aristocracy saw their wealth disappear, like water before the thirsty beast which was the Roman army, while the priesthood was reshuffled by the Romans after many of the priests, including Eleazar ben Simon, the rogue high priest, were killed for their part in the rebellion. With the Sadducees neutralized, the Essenes, who had defined themselves as fanatical opposition to the Sadducees, started to unradicalize, many merging back into the more mainstream Pharisees, with whom they held much in common, while others continued to practice their unique piousness, though this number increasingly dwindled.
The Pharisees, unlike the other two groups, flourished post-revolt, as a result of being looked upon favorably with Rome, who recognized their support in quelling the rebellion, as well as the people, who saw them as delivering them from the sectarian violence that the zealots brought. In addition, with much of the Sadducean priesthood dead or scattered, the Pharisees were the ones who took over the management of the Temple. However, unlike the Sadducees, who literally interpreted the written Mosaic Law, the Pharisees were more concerned with the oral law and the prophets. Thus, when the people were initially unable to fund the sacrifices as they had before the war, the Pharisees, drawing their support from the prophets, downplayed the need for sacrifice and promoted instead values such as mercy and repentance. It was not long before only national sacrifices, such as the Day of Atonement, were held in the Temple, and eventually, even these ceased in favor of a spirit of sacrifice.
As the Temple began moving away from primarily the center of cultic sacrifices, it became instead a center of religious instruction. Soon, in Judaism a man was not considered a reputable religious authority unless he studied at the Pharisaic school in the Temple. Eventually, people outside of Judea started to come to Jerusalem, attracted by the lure of the school, at first only Hellenistic Jews, but eventually even some Gentiles. The Hellenistic thought that these visitors brought to the academy at the Temple challenged the Pharisaical assumptions of most of the academy members, provoke two distinct responses. The first response, which was the popular response in Jerusalem and among the Jews of the Diaspora, was one of synthesis. Exploiting Philos dual distinction of the literal and allegorical meaning to its fullest, these Jews sought to integrate Greek science and philosophy while remaining steadfast monotheists committed to the law and the prophets. The second response, which was the dominant response of the countryside of Judea, was one of reaction, an attempt to completely purify Judaism from all outside influences.
As the horrors of the last revolt started to fade, this reactionary group started to have fringe elements that were even too reactionary for the reactionaries. These groups agitated, and plotted, and terrorized, or at least attempted to terrorize. Eventually, they attempted an actual revolt, attacking the Temple, believing that if they held that, then the rest of the country would join with them. Unfortunately for them, this plan was leaked, and so instead of unarmed pilgrims and scholars, they ran right into a Roman ambush which killed most of them, scattering the rest. With the mouthpieces of the ultra-radicals permanently quieted (at least until the next generation of ultra-radicals) Judaism, and Judea on the whole reached a peaceful equilibrium.
The Empire
With the creation of the Eastern Empire, a new religious force invaded the East, following the new Augustus, Mithras. Of course, it was not really a new religious force, for it had early on sprung up in the Eastern reaches of the Empire, perhaps even having been birthed in the lands of the Parthians. But while it might have been birthed in the East, it had metamorphosed in the West, like a caterpillar turning into a butterfly. Thus, when it returned to the East, it was like someone who had traveled on a journey far from home, only to return the same person as the one who left, yet different.
But despite having the favor of the Imperial court, Mithras was not really the dominant god of the East. In fact, outside of the capital only in the army and among the settled veteran colonies was the worship extensive. Despite this, many wealthy citizens, eager to curry favor with the court and in gratitude of the protection Mithras gave, built temples to Mithras, giving him some honor in virtually every city of the realm. Meanwhile in the West, with the exodus of the best troops to the East, Mithras became almost completely extinct, virtually its only presence in Britannia, where, combining with other Britannic/Roman religious strains, it enjoyed something of a renaissance.
This religion, if such incoherent mass of beliefs could be called such, was a mixture of various eastern mystery religions, local cults, and pseudo-science, especially astronomy, all with a vaguely defined attempt at a philosophical base. These cults tended to be localized, sometimes to a particular city, sometimes to a particular people group. As a byproduct of this localization, the religions tended to be synchronistic. Once a practitioner left the local area of worship to visit another land he was allowed, if not outright expected, to worship whatever god happened to be in the new location. Though some religions, following Platonic and Neo-Platonic thought, believed there to be one ultimate god or force, this god was seen as distant, unable to be reached, and so humanity had to content itself with the hosts of lesser deities.
Another popular religious expression was the mystery religions. In these religions, the initiated, and only the initiated held the keys to understanding the cosmos and worshiping the divine. Because this knowledge was usually conceived of in universal tones, these religions tended to have a more widespread appeal than the more localized folk religions.
The last main religious strand in the Empire was the Imperial cult. Whether in order to legitimize their rule, or bind the Empire together, whether because it was tradition, or because they actually believed it, many Emperors proclaimed their divinity, building temples so that their august personage might be freely worshiped throughout the realm. However, while many dutifully carried out their civil service of worship, few, if any actually believed the Emperor to be divine. After the division of the Empire, in fact, the Eastern Augusti abandoned the claim to divinity all together, preferring instead the religious title Pontifex Maximus. In the West, however, the Emperor still demanded all honors due to gods, though the actual acclaim they received, other than from their sycophants, was almost non-existent.
Thus, on the whole, the Empire at this time period was marked by a plurality of minor religions, none of which managed to gain dominance in the realm. As a result, syncretism and tolerance were the chief religious values cherished. In the end, with few exceptions, it did not really matter what religion one belonged to, as few would demand commitment or change in lifestyle. And so it was, that the citizens of Rome and the Empire, those pigs of Epicurus sty, sat around, eating and drinking until the ending of their world.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
We have over 300,000 in Reserve alone, I don't know about National Guard.
Over the number in your post are actually deployed world wide. So your numbers are incorrect.
Symphony D.
Deity
Two words: prove it. 
If you have some reliable statistics on the precise number of combat soldiers (not total numbers) in the various branches, I'd love to see them, because I looked high and low.
If you have some reliable statistics on the precise number of combat soldiers (not total numbers) in the various branches, I'd love to see them, because I looked high and low.
Insane_Panda
Deity
I fail.
*shoots self*
*shoots self*
das
Regeneration In Process
Actually, I suspect not; instead, when the Americans turned around for the Cold War with Germany, the Japanese remilitarised (obviously, with lots of German help; they needed a diversion. I suspect also that one of the die-hard right-wing groups that historically died out in the 1970s may have taken over the country, via a coup or even elections; that surely would've gotten German support as well) and went for a different economic solution, using Korean and Chinese internal tensions and instability to grab several resource- and manpower-rich regions (including Manchuria=oil; bet they really regretted having not discovered it earlier...).
EDIT:
Don't remember the details, but wasn't there an interdict or something on him? Also getting him into Jerusalem would be a tad bit complicated. It would probably have to be the other way around.
No real complaints about the rest; well done!
I just wonder if there is any way for the hellenistic strand of Judaism to become more proselytising.
Insane_Panda
Deity
Hrm. I dislike economic solutions like that (those which rely too much on foriegn conquered manpower and resources as a short term fix at the expense of a real, lasting economic model) - it only leads to future instability. Oh well, who says I can't have both an extremely effecient economic system AND cheap labor to exploit? 
Insane_Panda
Deity
Also, Azale, I am going to have to agree with Symphony about the rules:
Das rules, though easier to manage stats wise than some other systems used in modern NESes, are unsuited, IMHO, for a modern-era NES. Perhaps goober's rules, edited a little, would be more suitable.
Please don't kill this one.
Das rules, though easier to manage stats wise than some other systems used in modern NESes, are unsuited, IMHO, for a modern-era NES. Perhaps goober's rules, edited a little, would be more suitable.
Please don't kill this one.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Two words: prove it.
If you have some reliable statistics on the precise number of combat soldiers (not total numbers) in the various branches, I'd love to see them, because I looked high and low.
I am saying deployed. Even from the link in your post there in the first paragrpah it states.
I know not all are combat troops but they are all combat trained.
Symphony D.
Deity
Having been through portions of Basic, I can say quite simply that no, they're not. Teaching somebody how to shoot a rifle and telling them to shoot people while sustaining mortar and RPG fire are two entirely different things. Counting every member of the American military as if they were combat soldiers is just about the most ******** thing I can think of. Except using a simple Division / Wing / Ship system for modern militaries, maybe.I know not all are combat troops but they are all combat trained.
I should not have to explain why this is, and already have.Yea, ok, it's just that its rather difficult to tell how many of each plane or ship that each nation in this alternate history would have. Goober's rules are an option, since they worked pretty well. Fallout version or the version he used in his second NES though? There are some slight differences in the two.
The Strategos
Thanatos
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2002
- Messages
- 1,175
According to his own account, in OTL Josephus actually attempted to negotiate a surrender with Jerusalem at least once (possibly more, I'd have to look it up) but was wounded with an arrow sent as a present by the Jews. Thus, there is precedence for him as a negotiator and it seemed reasonable at the time I was writing it, that as a Pharisee himself, he would act as the go between for the Pharisees (who were already tired of this war) and the Romans. As for getting into Jerusalem, all it needs is for the Pharisees or Pharisee sympathizer to have access to a section of the wall. But it doesn't really matter, as long as the Pharisees and Romans collaborate somehow. Perhaps, Josephus, writing about the Jewish War took some artistic liberties to make his role in the saving of the Temple larger than it really was in order to help rehabilitate his reputation among the Jews. Then us historians reading him thousands of years later, with no other sources, believe his greater role was actually what happened.
No real complaints about the rest; well done!
Thank you. Yes. I thought I had mentioned that briefly in the second paragraph under "The Empire" but must have taken it out for some reason. The Pharisees seem suited for the task as they appeared to have been less Gentilephobic than other Jewish groups, some of them apparently even boasting of having proselytizes in their background in order to defend their assertion of "A learned mamzer [someone born of a forbidden relationship i.e. adultery, incest] takes precedence over an ignorant High Priest." In addition, with the increased emphasis on the prophets by the Pharisees in this timeline, you have all sorts of missional passages one could use to motivate proselytizing. The real test, I would think, however, would be whether they would be willing to give up the requirement of circumcision. If not, they might have several God-fearers who would believe in Judaism but not become officially Judaist. It isnt impossible to see someone eventually arguing along Pauline lines eventually (Abraham was justified before circumcision, thus it was unnecessary) or exploiting Jeremiahian language (circumcision of the heart) and the allegorical method to get past the literal requirement but, if the New Testament can be found to be reliable in this instance, one would assume it would be a hard fight. The problem from the Gentile side is the entire culture of tolerance which would be suspicious of the monotheistic exclusivist language of Judaism, as well as "normal" racism and biases.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Having been through portions of Basic, I can say quite simply that no, they're not. Teaching somebody how to shoot a rifle and telling them to shoot people while sustaining mortar and RPG fire are two entirely different things. Counting every member of the American military as if they were combat soldiers is just about the most ******** thing I can think of. Except using a simple Division / Wing / Ship system for modern militaries, maybe.
I can argue this point. A large portion of my family is in the military and they are all combat trained. Everyone gets the same basic training, you only differentiate when you go to AIT, or whatever its called. To call the troops not ready is ridiculous. Your numbers are low admit it. I know not all of them are combat soldiers but a large number of them are. Not everyone has to be a infantryman to go into combat. You have artillery, vehicle drivers and all of that. They do experience combat and are under fire regularly.
Symphony D.
Deity
No, they don't. But turn that around. Do you send truck drivers and supply managers out to assault enemy positions with rifles on a regular basis? No, you don't.
Any reasonable unit system for a modern NES would differentiate vehicles and infantry, in which case all of those are covered elsewhere. As I said, using generic Divisions to describe the vast array of vehicles under the control of a modern army is dumb.
Supposedly the cook on an Aircraft Carrier is ready to shoot people when called upon, and so is the bellhop at an Air Force base's hotel, and the supply clerk at a Marine depot. They're ready for combat, but it's not their job, and they're unlikely to encounter it unless they're forward deployed to a combat zone (like Iraq). Counting all of them as infantry is stupid, which is effectively what rolling them into "Divisions" does.
Even the People's Liberation Army of China (which includes all their Services) only has a combined total of 2.3 million personnel. And that's to do everything from cook meals to fly planes to drive forklifts to shoot people. The United States has 1,371,533 active duty personnel, and an additional 858,500 reserve. Now if you want to pretend that 1,000,000 of those 1,371,533 (72.91%
are ground combat capable for specifically that job, you can. But you'd be wrong.Most military jobs are support for the portions actually going into combat. That is logistics, administration, command and control, intelligence, on and on. Counting all those people as being in fighting occupations is silly, and inaccurate. The fact is modern militaries have relatively small fighting components, and that's just the way it is. It isn't bloody WWII where you just happen to have 2,000,000 infantry sitting around and another 200,000 fighter pilots or what have you.
das
Regeneration In Process
OOC: I would particularily appreciate alex994's insight on this.
IC:
The Background.
In 1626 all seemed lost. Though the Emperor still had many allies, the Empire's enemies were strong and well-organised, having undergone grand military reforms and led by a visionary, ambitious leader, while both the Empire and its allies were rotten from the inside; weakened by pirate raids, poor policies, corrupt, divided courts and unceasing plots and rebellions. Still, the Empire's army fought on, and there were some good news there; the Empire still had some great generals to defend it. It soon became clear that the greatest of these generals was... Yuan Chonghuan.
He was not of noble birth, nor did he do well at his initial examinations. But he had good eyes, and an excellent military mind to go with them. He was known to take interest in the barbarians who came from beyond the farthest seas; more specifically, in their powerful and accurate cannons. Meanwhile, he finally passed the examinations in 1619; at first he was a magistrate, but, still feeling his true calling to be a military one, he joined the Board of War in 1622, making quick progress and befriending commander-in-chief Sun Chengzong. He fought in the crucial theatre of Liaoning, and soon distinguished himself.
Liaoning came under the persistant attacks of the Later Jin Jurchens, ever since they were united by Nurhachi Khan in 1616. The Jurchens may have been mere barbarians, but they were good at fighting, they had vast numbers, excellent military organisation (the Eight Banners) and assistance from Chinese military defectors; they also weren't as far behind the Ming Dynasty Chinese in military technology as the latter would have hoped. The Later Jin seeked to ensure their independence, to secure frontier provinces (especially Liaoning, where Nurhachi established his capital in the city of Shenyang, or Simiyan hoton as the Jurchens called it) and to defeat the stubbornly independent pro-Ming Jurchen tribe of Yehe; and in the long term, they looked forward towards the conquest of Ming Dynasty China (as implied by the dynasty's name, "Later Jin") and its lesser ally, Joseon Dynasty Korea. The Jurchens raided incessantly in Liaoning while consolidating Shenyang; in 1619 they attacked the Yehe, provoking the Ming. The Yehe, Chinese and Koreans took the bait and launched a grand united military expedition against the Manchus, but in a series of battles, most notably the Battle of Sarhu, that army was humiliatingly routed by the well-prepared Khan. Emboldened, he went on a more ambitious offensive in Liaoning (right after finishing off the Yehe in the same year), which Sun Chengzong struggled to halt, with uneven success.
Court machinations removed Sun Chengzong in 1625, and Gao Di, the new commander, ordered a general retreat from Liaoning. Yuan Chonghuan disobeyed, and instead remained with a small but well-trained and well-armed force in his forward fortress of Ningyuan. Eager to remove this last vestige of provincial resistance, Nurhachi personally led an assault with an overwhelming force - but it stumbled, Yuan Chonghuan having taken every measure in his power to maximise his defenses. Of particular importance was his use of the powerful and accurate "red-barbarian cannon", which, in a particularily well-calculated shot, fatally injured Nurhachi on the second day of the assault. The Jurchens have already taken severe casualties and retreated, utterly demoralised; the Ming forces improved the result by attacking some of the retreating Jurchens and turning the retreat into a rout. And as a final blessing of Heaven, Nurhachi died soon after. The Ming and Joseon dynasties were suddenly granted breathing space, while the Jurchens sorted out matters of succession amidst highly-suspicious suicides and so forth. The hoped-for civil war did not come, however, and instead Hung Taiji took power, initiating military reform and regroupping, and leading campaigns to subjugate the "Inner Khalkha" (southern) Mongols, forcing them to join the Banners. In 1627 the Jurchens proved that they were far from out of the war; a brief invasion of southern Liaoning was defeated, but it was merely a diversion, while a quick Jurchen invasion of Korea, in the wake of a devastating military rebellion back in 1624, forced King Injo to back out of the Ming coalition, remove all association with the Ming (including changing the Joseon dynasty's Ming era name) and sign a trade agreement (the Jurchens too were beginning to have economic problems). Having thus secured all his flanks and rebuilt his army both materially and spiritually, Hung Taiji was ready for the 1628 campaign...
As for Yuan Chonghuan, he was immediately appointed Governor of Liaoning. From now on, the Ming Dynasty's fate depended on him.
The Point of Divergence.
Determined to eliminate the Jurchen threat and unwilling to let court intrigues stop him like they stopped Sun Chengzong, Yuan Chonghuan did his best to tread carefully; fortunately, the all-powerful eunuch Wei Zhongxian, who had brought down Sun Chengzong, was himself no more; the new Emperor, Chongzhen, got rid of him and of his allies immediately, determined to govern for himself and to root out all treason and corruption; problematically, his determination turned into a mania, or rather into paranoia, that was fed by gossip and by the reports of the remaining eunuchs.
So, yes, Yuan Chonghuan had to tread carefully. This implied watching what he said, and avoiding confrontations with the mighty except when absolutely necessary. That included abstaining from executing Mao Wenlong, an amoral commander who nonetheless had good connections at the court; he was quite competent anyway, and only needed some... guidance, and control, and observation. Yuan Chonghuan didn't always control his indignation too well, but that one time he did, and merely reprimanded Mao instead.
It is hard to say what would have happened had he actually killed Mao instead; what did happen was that, in spite of some opposition, the Chongzhen Emperor granted Yuan Chonghuan full command over all the Ming forces in the northeast in 1628, and publicly proclaimed that he shall support all of his decisions. With his back more-or-less afe, Yuan Chonghuan could now concentrate on winning the war. He had some plans for that, yes...
The Confirmation of Divergence.
With the Ming Dynasty now leading an anti-Jurchen coalition of one (at least for now), the actual theatre of action narrowed down considerably - at first. Hung Taiji's half-brother Dorgon led a large army into Liaoning; Yuan Chonghuan retreated to the gate of the Shanhai Pass, on the province's southwestern border, and there minimised the advantage the Jurchen numbers gave Dorgon. The stand was succesful, the enemy was repulsed... but this too turned out to be a diversionary operation, while the core of the Banners was under Hung Taiji's command. The Jurchen Khan had effectively outflanked the Ming, avoiding Liaoning in favour of a more direct path to Beijing. That maneuver was seemingly succesful, and in the winter of 1629 the Jurchens appeared north of the capital, as if out of nowhere. Yuan Chonghuan and Mao Wenlong had to halt the reconquest of Liaoning and instead travelled with the best and the swiftest of their troops southwest, receiving reinforcements along the way. The Jurchens were attacked by Yuan's army and by the city garrison; exhausted by the forced march and by the bad weather, the Banners budged and were routed, the Ming once more giving chase and harrying Hung Taiji, though failing to destroy his army altogether. Increasingly irritated, Hung Taiji attempted to arrange a conspiracy at the Ming court, aimed against Yuan Chonghuan; it failed, but new victories were clearly needed, and some officials openly criticised Yuan Chonghuan for his slow progress.
For now, Yuan Chonghuan merely requested reinforcements; such were granted, and several cities in Liaoning were retaken from mid-1629 to early 1630. Meanwhile, negotiations were being conducted; an attempt to incite a Mongol rebellion had failed, due to the large degree of autonomy Hung Taiji had granted to the Khalkha, but King Injo, whose court was dominated by die-hard neo-Confucianist Mingophilic revanchists, couldn't but show enthusiasm for renewal of the war; in preparation, the Koreans openly and flagrantly reclaimed the Ming era name, granted sanctuary to Later Jin fugitives, sabotaged trade and had their messengers refuse to kowtow before Hung Taiji. That was a clear provocation, and was probably intended as such, if not by the gullible Injo then by Yuan Chonghuan and his Korean allies. Hung Taiji ignored that for now, instead concentrating on rebuilding his army and harrasing the Ming in Liaoning. It would appear that he had succesfully discerned the Ming ploy in Korea... but made the mistake of assuming that they had no plan B. In accordance with that plan, in 1631, Yuan Chonghuan launched a strong new offensive, attacking Liaoyang, the Jurchen-occupied provincial capital. Having brought up some more Portuguese cannons (most of them actually better than Portuguese - based on Portuguese designs, but modified by Yuan Chonghuan and actually made in China) and Chinese rockets, plus a formidable artillery corps that he had personally trained, Yuan Chonghuan managed to quickly break the city's defenses, overwhelm the garrison with the help of a popular uprising and then garrison the city by himself, fighting off a Jurchen attack with his masterful use of artillery (the Japanese didn't call him "砲戦の神" for nothing). With such a prominent outpost - about 120 li away from Shenyang - in Ming hands, the Jurchens naturally concentrated their attention there, while in Korea, generals Mao Wenling, Yu Hueng-chi and their Korean collegue Im Gyeong Eop readied a massive expeditionary force which suddenly crossed the Yalu, looting the Jurchen trade outposts there, and went on to besiege Anshan. Though the best of the Chinese artillerists were with Yuan Chonghuan, the Koreans did specialise in artillery and brought their Hwachas, Hwangjas and Chonjas along. Long story cut short, Anshan fell too, and the rest of Liaoyang south of Shenyang - most notably the Liaodong Peninsula - soon surrendered as well. Mao Wenling waged a ruthless campaign to eliminate all Jurchens and sympathisers in the occupied territory. Meanwhile, Yuan Chonghuan fortified Liaoyang and several other strategic cities, and captured Chifeng, which was crucial to Jurchen communications with the Mongols.
Hung Taiji was not about to surrender, though; rather, he once again rebuilt his army, reinforcing it with the Chahar Mongols to his north, and had his spies acquire for him some of the lighter Korean cannons, which were soon copied. Saboteurs placed explosives; spies went into position to open gates; assassins terrorised the Ming and Joseon ranks, Yuan Chonghuan himself being wounded, albeit lightly. In 1632, the Banners defeated Mao Wenling at Heishan and assaulted Liaoyang. The initial assault was barely repulsed, and one of the "red-barbarian cannons" was neutralised during the Jurchen bombardment. Yuan Chonghuan hastily marched to fight off the Jurchens, but was unable to secure advantageous ground. Yu Hueng-chi and Im Gyeong Eop, approaching from the east, pinned the Jurchens down at the city, however, and used the same artillery tactics that worked so well against the Japanese in the Seven Year War, inflicting very heavy casualties on the Jurchen horde. Yuan Chonghuan, meanwhile, linked up with Mao Wenling and recommenced his attack. Forced to fight back against a vigorous assault while besieging a city and coming under severe bombardment, the Jurchens nonetheless resisted vigorously until Hung Taiji himself died. With the Sino-Korean forces on the right flank going to offensive, the Jurchens were routed, but this time were chased down even more thoroughly than before, a task made even easier when the Mongols defected to the Ming side. Dorgon survived the battle and briefly took power as regent for his nephew Fulin, but soon had to kill him and then commit suicide as the Ming, in spite of growing supply problems and news of expanding rebellions back at home, laid siege to Shenyang. The city surrendered; the surviving Later Jin dynasty members were rounded up and sent to Beijing, the men to be executed, the women and children to live out the rest of their lives as slaves. Lesser Jurchen nobles were let be for the moment. In the countryside, some of the remnants of the Banners and simple Jurchen tribes fought on, often led by those of the Later Jin princes that were smart enough to keep out of the cities; most tribes, however, soon fled north, blending in with the Chahar Mongols, or northeast, mixing with their less civilised brethren.
The Ming Dynasty, in 1634, was still beset by pirates, corruption and intrigue; as for the rebels, they only got stronger, the secret societies lurked everywhere, the peasants roamed and plundered everywhere, riots shook the cities and the Shanxi Province was virtually out of control. Perhaps it still was going to die. But now it would not die by Jurchens.
IC:
The Background.
In 1626 all seemed lost. Though the Emperor still had many allies, the Empire's enemies were strong and well-organised, having undergone grand military reforms and led by a visionary, ambitious leader, while both the Empire and its allies were rotten from the inside; weakened by pirate raids, poor policies, corrupt, divided courts and unceasing plots and rebellions. Still, the Empire's army fought on, and there were some good news there; the Empire still had some great generals to defend it. It soon became clear that the greatest of these generals was... Yuan Chonghuan.
He was not of noble birth, nor did he do well at his initial examinations. But he had good eyes, and an excellent military mind to go with them. He was known to take interest in the barbarians who came from beyond the farthest seas; more specifically, in their powerful and accurate cannons. Meanwhile, he finally passed the examinations in 1619; at first he was a magistrate, but, still feeling his true calling to be a military one, he joined the Board of War in 1622, making quick progress and befriending commander-in-chief Sun Chengzong. He fought in the crucial theatre of Liaoning, and soon distinguished himself.
Liaoning came under the persistant attacks of the Later Jin Jurchens, ever since they were united by Nurhachi Khan in 1616. The Jurchens may have been mere barbarians, but they were good at fighting, they had vast numbers, excellent military organisation (the Eight Banners) and assistance from Chinese military defectors; they also weren't as far behind the Ming Dynasty Chinese in military technology as the latter would have hoped. The Later Jin seeked to ensure their independence, to secure frontier provinces (especially Liaoning, where Nurhachi established his capital in the city of Shenyang, or Simiyan hoton as the Jurchens called it) and to defeat the stubbornly independent pro-Ming Jurchen tribe of Yehe; and in the long term, they looked forward towards the conquest of Ming Dynasty China (as implied by the dynasty's name, "Later Jin") and its lesser ally, Joseon Dynasty Korea. The Jurchens raided incessantly in Liaoning while consolidating Shenyang; in 1619 they attacked the Yehe, provoking the Ming. The Yehe, Chinese and Koreans took the bait and launched a grand united military expedition against the Manchus, but in a series of battles, most notably the Battle of Sarhu, that army was humiliatingly routed by the well-prepared Khan. Emboldened, he went on a more ambitious offensive in Liaoning (right after finishing off the Yehe in the same year), which Sun Chengzong struggled to halt, with uneven success.
Court machinations removed Sun Chengzong in 1625, and Gao Di, the new commander, ordered a general retreat from Liaoning. Yuan Chonghuan disobeyed, and instead remained with a small but well-trained and well-armed force in his forward fortress of Ningyuan. Eager to remove this last vestige of provincial resistance, Nurhachi personally led an assault with an overwhelming force - but it stumbled, Yuan Chonghuan having taken every measure in his power to maximise his defenses. Of particular importance was his use of the powerful and accurate "red-barbarian cannon", which, in a particularily well-calculated shot, fatally injured Nurhachi on the second day of the assault. The Jurchens have already taken severe casualties and retreated, utterly demoralised; the Ming forces improved the result by attacking some of the retreating Jurchens and turning the retreat into a rout. And as a final blessing of Heaven, Nurhachi died soon after. The Ming and Joseon dynasties were suddenly granted breathing space, while the Jurchens sorted out matters of succession amidst highly-suspicious suicides and so forth. The hoped-for civil war did not come, however, and instead Hung Taiji took power, initiating military reform and regroupping, and leading campaigns to subjugate the "Inner Khalkha" (southern) Mongols, forcing them to join the Banners. In 1627 the Jurchens proved that they were far from out of the war; a brief invasion of southern Liaoning was defeated, but it was merely a diversion, while a quick Jurchen invasion of Korea, in the wake of a devastating military rebellion back in 1624, forced King Injo to back out of the Ming coalition, remove all association with the Ming (including changing the Joseon dynasty's Ming era name) and sign a trade agreement (the Jurchens too were beginning to have economic problems). Having thus secured all his flanks and rebuilt his army both materially and spiritually, Hung Taiji was ready for the 1628 campaign...
As for Yuan Chonghuan, he was immediately appointed Governor of Liaoning. From now on, the Ming Dynasty's fate depended on him.
The Point of Divergence.
Determined to eliminate the Jurchen threat and unwilling to let court intrigues stop him like they stopped Sun Chengzong, Yuan Chonghuan did his best to tread carefully; fortunately, the all-powerful eunuch Wei Zhongxian, who had brought down Sun Chengzong, was himself no more; the new Emperor, Chongzhen, got rid of him and of his allies immediately, determined to govern for himself and to root out all treason and corruption; problematically, his determination turned into a mania, or rather into paranoia, that was fed by gossip and by the reports of the remaining eunuchs.
So, yes, Yuan Chonghuan had to tread carefully. This implied watching what he said, and avoiding confrontations with the mighty except when absolutely necessary. That included abstaining from executing Mao Wenlong, an amoral commander who nonetheless had good connections at the court; he was quite competent anyway, and only needed some... guidance, and control, and observation. Yuan Chonghuan didn't always control his indignation too well, but that one time he did, and merely reprimanded Mao instead.
It is hard to say what would have happened had he actually killed Mao instead; what did happen was that, in spite of some opposition, the Chongzhen Emperor granted Yuan Chonghuan full command over all the Ming forces in the northeast in 1628, and publicly proclaimed that he shall support all of his decisions. With his back more-or-less afe, Yuan Chonghuan could now concentrate on winning the war. He had some plans for that, yes...
The Confirmation of Divergence.
With the Ming Dynasty now leading an anti-Jurchen coalition of one (at least for now), the actual theatre of action narrowed down considerably - at first. Hung Taiji's half-brother Dorgon led a large army into Liaoning; Yuan Chonghuan retreated to the gate of the Shanhai Pass, on the province's southwestern border, and there minimised the advantage the Jurchen numbers gave Dorgon. The stand was succesful, the enemy was repulsed... but this too turned out to be a diversionary operation, while the core of the Banners was under Hung Taiji's command. The Jurchen Khan had effectively outflanked the Ming, avoiding Liaoning in favour of a more direct path to Beijing. That maneuver was seemingly succesful, and in the winter of 1629 the Jurchens appeared north of the capital, as if out of nowhere. Yuan Chonghuan and Mao Wenlong had to halt the reconquest of Liaoning and instead travelled with the best and the swiftest of their troops southwest, receiving reinforcements along the way. The Jurchens were attacked by Yuan's army and by the city garrison; exhausted by the forced march and by the bad weather, the Banners budged and were routed, the Ming once more giving chase and harrying Hung Taiji, though failing to destroy his army altogether. Increasingly irritated, Hung Taiji attempted to arrange a conspiracy at the Ming court, aimed against Yuan Chonghuan; it failed, but new victories were clearly needed, and some officials openly criticised Yuan Chonghuan for his slow progress.
For now, Yuan Chonghuan merely requested reinforcements; such were granted, and several cities in Liaoning were retaken from mid-1629 to early 1630. Meanwhile, negotiations were being conducted; an attempt to incite a Mongol rebellion had failed, due to the large degree of autonomy Hung Taiji had granted to the Khalkha, but King Injo, whose court was dominated by die-hard neo-Confucianist Mingophilic revanchists, couldn't but show enthusiasm for renewal of the war; in preparation, the Koreans openly and flagrantly reclaimed the Ming era name, granted sanctuary to Later Jin fugitives, sabotaged trade and had their messengers refuse to kowtow before Hung Taiji. That was a clear provocation, and was probably intended as such, if not by the gullible Injo then by Yuan Chonghuan and his Korean allies. Hung Taiji ignored that for now, instead concentrating on rebuilding his army and harrasing the Ming in Liaoning. It would appear that he had succesfully discerned the Ming ploy in Korea... but made the mistake of assuming that they had no plan B. In accordance with that plan, in 1631, Yuan Chonghuan launched a strong new offensive, attacking Liaoyang, the Jurchen-occupied provincial capital. Having brought up some more Portuguese cannons (most of them actually better than Portuguese - based on Portuguese designs, but modified by Yuan Chonghuan and actually made in China) and Chinese rockets, plus a formidable artillery corps that he had personally trained, Yuan Chonghuan managed to quickly break the city's defenses, overwhelm the garrison with the help of a popular uprising and then garrison the city by himself, fighting off a Jurchen attack with his masterful use of artillery (the Japanese didn't call him "砲戦の神" for nothing). With such a prominent outpost - about 120 li away from Shenyang - in Ming hands, the Jurchens naturally concentrated their attention there, while in Korea, generals Mao Wenling, Yu Hueng-chi and their Korean collegue Im Gyeong Eop readied a massive expeditionary force which suddenly crossed the Yalu, looting the Jurchen trade outposts there, and went on to besiege Anshan. Though the best of the Chinese artillerists were with Yuan Chonghuan, the Koreans did specialise in artillery and brought their Hwachas, Hwangjas and Chonjas along. Long story cut short, Anshan fell too, and the rest of Liaoyang south of Shenyang - most notably the Liaodong Peninsula - soon surrendered as well. Mao Wenling waged a ruthless campaign to eliminate all Jurchens and sympathisers in the occupied territory. Meanwhile, Yuan Chonghuan fortified Liaoyang and several other strategic cities, and captured Chifeng, which was crucial to Jurchen communications with the Mongols.
Hung Taiji was not about to surrender, though; rather, he once again rebuilt his army, reinforcing it with the Chahar Mongols to his north, and had his spies acquire for him some of the lighter Korean cannons, which were soon copied. Saboteurs placed explosives; spies went into position to open gates; assassins terrorised the Ming and Joseon ranks, Yuan Chonghuan himself being wounded, albeit lightly. In 1632, the Banners defeated Mao Wenling at Heishan and assaulted Liaoyang. The initial assault was barely repulsed, and one of the "red-barbarian cannons" was neutralised during the Jurchen bombardment. Yuan Chonghuan hastily marched to fight off the Jurchens, but was unable to secure advantageous ground. Yu Hueng-chi and Im Gyeong Eop, approaching from the east, pinned the Jurchens down at the city, however, and used the same artillery tactics that worked so well against the Japanese in the Seven Year War, inflicting very heavy casualties on the Jurchen horde. Yuan Chonghuan, meanwhile, linked up with Mao Wenling and recommenced his attack. Forced to fight back against a vigorous assault while besieging a city and coming under severe bombardment, the Jurchens nonetheless resisted vigorously until Hung Taiji himself died. With the Sino-Korean forces on the right flank going to offensive, the Jurchens were routed, but this time were chased down even more thoroughly than before, a task made even easier when the Mongols defected to the Ming side. Dorgon survived the battle and briefly took power as regent for his nephew Fulin, but soon had to kill him and then commit suicide as the Ming, in spite of growing supply problems and news of expanding rebellions back at home, laid siege to Shenyang. The city surrendered; the surviving Later Jin dynasty members were rounded up and sent to Beijing, the men to be executed, the women and children to live out the rest of their lives as slaves. Lesser Jurchen nobles were let be for the moment. In the countryside, some of the remnants of the Banners and simple Jurchen tribes fought on, often led by those of the Later Jin princes that were smart enough to keep out of the cities; most tribes, however, soon fled north, blending in with the Chahar Mongols, or northeast, mixing with their less civilised brethren.
The Ming Dynasty, in 1634, was still beset by pirates, corruption and intrigue; as for the rebels, they only got stronger, the secret societies lurked everywhere, the peasants roamed and plundered everywhere, riots shook the cities and the Shanxi Province was virtually out of control. Perhaps it still was going to die. But now it would not die by Jurchens.
The Strategos
Thanatos
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2002
- Messages
- 1,175
das you have made me lament the fact that I know next to nothing about China's history.
alex994
Hail Divine Emperor!
Hmm... intriguing, I'll comment on it when I get back from class 
das
Regeneration In Process
Well, most of the information I used for this part of the althist came from the Wikipedia; I don't really know all that much about it neither, or at least about the war with the Jurchens/Manchus. That's why I'm asking for alex994's opinion.
EDIT: By the way, alex, I can't find any information about Chongzhen's sons (as opposed to his other relatives) - could you help me here? Not sure if they will actually be of any importance, but still, some info would be useful.
EDIT: By the way, alex, I can't find any information about Chongzhen's sons (as opposed to his other relatives) - could you help me here? Not sure if they will actually be of any importance, but still, some info would be useful.
