Alternate Leaders for VP project thread

[pineappledan]

Between this name (Ottoman in origin, hence the -stan), and the Fidei defensor, I hesitate : the first is more focused on his battle prowess, and the second on the reasons of his battles

I figured the main issue is it might be too close to Sweden's "Lion of the North"

The idea is quite interesting, but I fear it could be too powerful... I'm considering keeping the second part of the bonus (-10 % bonus for every additionnal civ at war).

I don't know how -5% would make much difference, but it would feel bad if their UA depended entirely on joint wars, and had no bonus whatsoever if you were the aggressor.
I'm surprised to hear people think this would be OP. Joint wars are hard to convince the AI of. It would make Poland very opportunistic, so he jumps in on wars that are already happening. Thus, a Polish player loses much of his ability to pick his battles if we wants to use his UA.

The other side of the coin is that "to the victor goes the spoils", and so players might take advantage of an AI poland's ongoing war with a neighbour to act decisively against Poland's target. If Poland gets bogged down in a front then you can take advantage of the malus he gives for yourself, co-opting his UA.

This kind of bonus has already been seen many times in other times, and each time it has bothered me... I don't know exactly how to explain it, but it seems quite exploitable and artificial as a bonus (you can go back and forth just to increase the bonus before the striking...). I prefer that a bonus related to movement rewards you for not moving instead of this... I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced on this...

well the big thing is it would mean you can't retreat or reposition after combat. My other idea was to give all melee units the winged hussar's "heavy charge", but then Jan's winged Hussar would need a new bonus to replace that. Can't just give them all Charge I or else they will all get charge II at lvl 2 and that's huge.

Option 2:
All melee cavalry have the Heavy Charge Promotion
Winged Hussar: Towarzysze Promotion - Transfers movement to Great General. +50% vs units at full HP

That would make an initial charge with winged hussar decisive

I like how it is a reference to a now disappeared bonus of the Polish UA in VP, but I find this bonus quite anedotic and weak. It would have been more powerful if it was a boredom or poverty reduction bonus (since these are much more akin to be increased by the actions of other civilizations).

The main thing was I wanted something diplomatic which helps with non-war thingies. Jan had close ties to the HRE and France, to such a degree that it caused grumblings in his own court.
My other idea was this:
For every declaration of friendship, both civilizations gain +5% Faith and -5% Crime on Empire.

 

[Hinin]

Sobieski would be fit more an UA that gets +CS/yields/something when fighting guys who bullied or attacked your CS/Civ allies/guys with the same religion or you while also getting something annoying that makes AI more inclined to attack him. Maybe have him reduce or even nullify the pressure of religions he conquers cities of or kills units of (for a few turns), while doing the same simultaneously boosts his pressure and missionaries for the same duration, if it's possible that is. That on top of some Faith somewhere, like maybe a pseudo-founder based on his majority religion/pantheon followers so he gets to be founding a religion easier, benefits from his religion being strong (whether he founds or not?) and he's good to go. AI'd need to want to spread the religion and be recommended to take founders like Holy Law/Transcendence/etc. Still defensive, but he's defensive because he's annoying and worth attacking, and if you attack him or his friends, he's stronger for a few turns. It might be weak or overpowered, I don't know, but it seems more interesting if it's even possible.

The idea of making so that, under some conditions, Sobieski can annihilate the pressure of a religion seems a bit limited in terms of situation where it can be useful, but it is still very interesting.
The parameters must be clearly defined however :
- When does the effect trigger ? When a city is captured, or when a war is won ?
- Who/what is affected ? Only the majority religion in the empire of the loser, or the majority religion of the loser in all cities in the world (that would be quite nasty) ?
- How long ? A handful of turns, or more ?
- To what extent ? Are missionaries/inquisitors/GProphets of that religion also affected ?

After asking these questions, here is what I've come up with :
When winning a war, the pressure of the majority religion of the loser is nullified in the entire world and missionaries/inquisitors/GProphets of that religion can no longer convert citizens for 10 turns (scaling with game speed) if that majority religion is different from yours.
=> I don't think it can be coded... but if it could, it could be quite infuriating for those losing against Poland.
=> It would be nice if this bonus would also work against the Spanish UA : there would be no conversion of settled/conquered cities during the ten turns.

I don't know how -5% would make much difference, but it would feel bad if their UA depended entirely on joint wars, and had no bonus whatsoever if you were the aggressor.
I'm surprised to hear people think this would be OP. Joint wars are hard to convince people of. It would make Poland very opportunistic, so he jumps in on wars that are already happening. It's hard to convince AI to co-declare, so it means a Polish player loses much of his ability to pick his battles if we wants to use his UA.

These last weeks, I have quite often been confronted to joint wars, since the AI is now a lot more agressive than before. After attacking a neighbour, another adjacent civilization usually take advantage of the situation and also attack my enemy.
Also, I fear these situations where you can simply declare war to a opponent far away and do nothing, while the opponent gets a nasty combat malus...
I didn't say I'm not interested, only that I'm worried about the potential utilisations and effects. We are talking about an army-wide malus...

All melee cavalry have the Heavy Charge Promotion
Winged Hussar: Towarzysze Promotion - Transfers movement to Great General. +50% vs units at full HP
That would make an initial charge with winged hussar decisive

I like this more. I'll keep it.

 

[Hinin]

By the way, thank you for helping designing all of this. It's always nice to not feel alone on a project like this.

 

[Hinin]

Oups, I forgot to answer to some parts of your last post, pineappledan.

I figured the main issue is it might be too close to Sweden's "Lion of the North"

I agree. Let's keep Fidei Defensor.

The main thing was I wanted something diplomatic which helps with non-war thingies. Jan had close ties to the HRE and France, to such a degree that it caused grumblings in his own court.
My other idea was this:
For every declaration of friendship, both civilizations gain +5% Faith and -5% Crime on Empire.

I don't disagree with a peacetime bonus, but, as I said, I think that a bonus against crime is too anecdotic : to me, crime is one of the easiest sources of unhappiness to deal with. I would be much more akin to choose a bonus against boredom or poverty.

 

[pineappledan]

The name of the malus promotion placed on enemy units from joint wars could then be 'Lion of Lechistan'. Then all the names get to be retained.

I agree that having some bonus that proccs when your CS allies are bullied is incredibly specific. Too specific to be useful.

I don't disagree with a peacetime bonus, but, as I said, I think that a bonus against crime is too anecdotic : to me, crime is one of the easiest sources of unhappiness to deal with. I would be much more akin to choose a bonus against boredom or poverty.

Well reading a brief biography on Sobieski, it seems the only thing that kept his head attached to his neck was that he was a skilled general. He had an intense desire for friends, and to prevent Poland-Lithuania from becoming diplomatically isolated, but all his attempts at diplomacy ended up falling flat. Sweden couldn't keep their end of the bargain, France was just generally disinterested in being of any use, the HRE failed to bestow any honors or benefits to Sobieski, despite him having saved their entire empire from an existential threat.

What yield or effect would best represent this? I don't know. I think with the Barbican and Pancerny's bonuses to faith production, a small faith scaler makes a lot of sense (it's as if 4UC was more designed for Jan than Casimir), but I think a faith scaler alone would be seen as pretty ho-hum.

What about this?
+5% Faith on Empire for every Declaration of Friendship
+5% Military Supply cap on Empire for every Defensive Pact

I think it would be best to deal with Sobieski's diplomacy by looking at his aims, not his successes. His domestic policy being in shambles probably has more to do with him being too busy kicking Tatar and Ottoman tushy all the live-long day, as opposed to being incompetent.

Who could have guessed that being an omnipresent God-King is maybe not the most accurate portrayal of how real nations were run in the 17th century?

Also, I fear these situations where you can simply declare war to a opponent far away and do nothing, while the opponent gets a nasty combat malus...
I didn't say I'm not interested, only that I'm worried about the potential utilisations and effects. We are talking about an army-wide malus...

Sorry, but to me that sounds baller as hell. That's a really interesting sort of "kingmaker" aspect to the civ which would make it completely unique. You could use that to try to balance-out a one-sided war, or to curry favor with other civs. Keep in mind that if the bonuses the civ gets to economy are strictly from friendship, then Jan will have to be really conscious about using wars diplomatically, and will still have to be very careful about his warmonger score.

 

[Hinin]

The name of the malus promotion placed on enemy units from joint wars could then be 'Lion of Lechistan'. Then all the names get to be retained.

Indeed.

What do you think of the "negate religious pressure" bonus ? Can it be done, and will it be useful ?

 

[pineappledan]

I really don't think that fits at all. First, it is too celtic/Spanish. Second, it is disjointed from the rest of the bonuses

 

[Hinin]

I really don't think that fits at all. First, it is too celtic/Spanish. Second, it is disjointed from the rest of the bonuses

Ok. I think it would be too difficult to code anyway, and it's too situational for something that complex. Thks.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Well adding +move to mounted is just what the mongols do already. He led the single largest cavalry charge in history, so I think a bonus to mounted melee is good, but maybe not +move. Something to play off a joint war mechanic would be more unique and hasn’t been done, since his greatest legacy is defending another country from attack, and his close ties to both the French and HRE courts.

Jan III Sobieski - Lion of Lechistan
Enemy civilizations at war with Poland lose combat strength for every civ also at war with them (-5% if at war with Poland, -10% for every additional civ in a joint war)
All melee mounted and armour units have the “Relief of Vienna” promotion
Reduced crime in all cities for every declaration of friendship

Relief of Vienna - +10% in open terrain. +5% attack for every movement point spent that turn. Transfers movement to great general

It's not a bad idea as a whole, but I think it's too Combat Strength focused. Poland with vassals would be pretty much impossible to beat. Let's assume 4 out of 8 players spawned on your continent and you beat them all up, that's +35% CS against all your enemies on the other one just in this part of the UA, that and +5% +XX% CS for horsies. Also I don't think the AI can ever use the movement into +CS effectively either. It seems like something that players can abuse very well, but AI will struggle with

The idea of making so that, under some conditions, Sobieski can annihilate the pressure of a religion seems a bit limited in terms of situation where it can be useful, but it is still very interesting.
The parameters must be clearly defined however :
- When does the effect trigger ? When a city is captured, or when a war is won ?
- Who/what is affected ? Only the majority religion in the empire of the loser, or the majority religion of the loser in all cities in the world (that would be quite nasty) ?
- How long ? A handful of turns, or more ?
- To what extent ? Are missionaries/inquisitors/GProphets of that religion also affected ?

After asking these questions, here is what I've come up with :
When winning a war, the pressure of the majority religion of the loser is nullified in the entire world and missionaries/inquisitors/GProphets of that religion can no longer convert citizens for 10 turns (scaling with game speed) if that majority religion is different from yours.
=> I don't think it can be coded... but if it could, it could be quite infuriating for those losing against Poland.
=> It would be nice if this bonus would also work against the Spanish UA : there would be no conversion of settled/conquered cities during the ten turns.
.

Thanks for considering, I thought it was impossible. It'd probably be too annoying if strong and too insignificant if weak, I don't want to put my hand to another civ as fun to fight against as Elizabeth is. I don't have more ideas for the time being, but I also like Heavy Charge for all the mounted idea.

Also I've looked at Tokugawa Ieyasu. I don't understand what his niche is. Internal trade routes will be very good, yes, but losing automatical, easy to gain GWAMs for specialist slots that have to be worked anyway seems a bit weak, even with twice as strong internal routes it'll be hard to compensate or work them all. Great Generals spawning can provide hundreds or later on thousands of GWAM points each and you can faithbuy them or get them with wonders, he's going to have problems competing with just the specialists when the rest of the civ is so focused on warmonger synergy, Dojo insists on going to battle so you get tons of Science. If you work all those tons of GWAM specialists, it'll be hard to maintain high Production/etc, so your war capability is ever so slightly diminished. The guy who gets stronger golden ages and golden ages each GG/GA fits Japan well, so maybe Ieyasu could also get +XP to his existing units every time a GWAM is born on top of all that? It'd have synergy with the Dojo and be slightly more peaceful, though going angry would still be rewarded just as much.

 

[Hinin]

Thanks for considering, I thought it was impossible. It'd probably be too annoying if strong and too insignificant if weak, I don't want to put my hand to another civ as fun to fight against as Elizabeth is. I don't have more ideas for the time being, but I also like Heavy Charge for all the mounted idea.

Also I've looked at Tokugawa Ieyasu. I don't understand what his niche is. Internal trade routes will be very good, yes, but losing automatical, easy to gain GWAMs for specialist slots that have to be worked anyway seems a bit weak, even with twice as strong internal routes it'll be hard to compensate or work them all. Great Generals spawning can provide hundreds or later on thousands of GWAM points each and you can faithbuy them or get them with wonders, he's going to have problems competing with just the specialists when the rest of the civ is so focused on warmonger synergy, Dojo insists on going to battle so you get tons of Science. If you work all those tons of GWAM specialists, it'll be hard to maintain high Production/etc, so your war capability is ever so slightly diminished. The guy who gets stronger golden ages and golden ages each GG/GA fits Japan well, so maybe Ieyasu could also get +XP to his existing units every time a GWAM is born on top of all that? It'd have synergy with the Dojo and be slightly more peaceful, though going angry would still be rewarded just as much.

Well, the idea was more to synergize with what the Kabuki theater brings in the MUCfVP modmod, but, without it, it is indeed quite weak compared to what Nobunaga has.
(one of the core ideas of the Kabuki theater was to make culture specialists worth more than the GWorks they create by giving them additionnal yields).
Since Tokugawa is still an early concept, I was expecting changes. I'll make so that using specialists is more rewarding with him (they'll still cost a lot of food, but will bring a variety of yields).

Thanks for the answer. I'll go sleep and think about what came from these discussions.

 

[Jarula]

Why not free faith and golden age points for every wars won? Whoops for Jan.

Coupled with movement combat buff.

For Spain Phillip 2 25% bonus production for naval units when at war with different religion plus bonuses upon bankruptcy
And Portugal ALPHONSO 1 upon completion of a victory bonus culture science and gold scaling with era.

 

[Hinin]

Why not free faith and golden age points for every wars won? Whoops for Jan.
Coupled with movement combat buff.

We already talked about the movement buff. I prefer pineappledan's idea.
For the faith/FA points... Do you even think about what you write ? The Aztecs gain an automatic GAge when they win a war, so gaining GAge points is not even considered for the Polish UA.

For Spain Phillip 2 25% bonus production for naval units when at war with different religion plus bonuses upon bankruptcy

There are already different combat bonus for fighting against an enemy of another religion. I won't add more combat bonus of this kind (only bonus yields)...

And Portugal ALPHONSO 1 upon completion of a victory bonus culture science and gold scaling with era.

By victory, you mean winning a war, right (use the correct denomination : in civ 5, a victory ends the game...) ? No, I'll keep yield bonus when winning wars for civilization which have the UCs to actually win wars in the early game, and Portugal isn't on the list...

 

[Hinin]

So, I'll do a list of the ideas and reviews for Sobieski :

Spoiler List :

- replacing the movement bonus by a combat bonus
=> bonus for each MP spent before attacking (pineappledan) => sorry, but I don't like it
=> bonus when attacking not-wounded units (pineappledan) => I'll keep this idea

- replacing the bonus (food/faith) when winning war
=> by a malus on religious pressure for the majority religion of the loser (Enrico Swagolo) => I like it a lot, but it will require a lot of efforts for too few situations where this could be useful...
=> by a faith/GAge bonus (Jarula) => too similar to what the Aztecs have, and too weak compared to it
==> I keep the current version for now

- combat malus for opponents depending on the number of civilizations in a joint war with Poland (pineappledan) => as ESwagolo pointed out, having vassals make the effect op, and I already had doubts about it before, so unfortunately no...

- bonus faith and crime reduction from declarations of friendship (pineappledan) => I don't think it brings much to the table, and so would prefer something else, since we have a limited number of bonus per civilization

- military supply from GWorks (originaly adan_eslavo's idea) => feels a bit out of place for a civilization so geared toward conquest (ESwagolo) => I agree, but have nothing else to propose for now

- general idea from pineappledan : make Sobieski geared toward opportunistic wars => I think we should try to keep this idea in mind

Also, new UA for Tokugawa Ieyasu :

Spoiler Tokugawa Ieyasu Japan :

Japan - Tokugawa Ieyasu - Edo-jidai
- The Palace is replaced by the Chiyoda-jo
- All internal trade routes to the capital have their yields increased by 50 %
- Every time a GWork is spawned, all military land units gain 10 xp (scaling with game speed)

Chiyoda-jo (replaces Palace)
Unique to Tokugawa Japan
Has the same yields as the Palace
- At the beginning of the Classical era, Renaissance era, Modern era and Information era, gain one cultural specialist of each type in the city (through free buildings replace every two eras)
- Give bonus to all specialists in capital (using dummy buildings) :
=> Engineer : gain +7 % Gold from city connections per worked
=> Merchant : +1 Science to international TRoutes (to and from Japan) per worked
=> Scientist : gain +1 Culture to international TRoutes (to and from Japan) per worked
=> Writer : gain +1 Faith per building in capital per worked
=> Artist : +1 Production to GWorks in capital per worked
=> Musician : gain +1 Happiness and +2 Tourism per worked
=> Civil servant : gain +3 Food per worked

Of course, there are things to say about this :

- first, it is indeed an additionnal UC for Japan (and I know Jarula won't be happy about his after what I told him some days ago), but it is only a way to add a bunch of bonus with a limited space for the UA, and there will be no particular bonus toward national wonders for this leader, so it's only a national wonder for technical purposes

- second, that's a lot of text, I know, but I wanted to make so that specialists are worth more with this leader, and doing so just by adding a bunch of yields to each seemed a bit cheap to me, so I decided to give full effects to each specialist (except for the civil servants and the musicians, but, food and unhappiness being the main problems when working specialists, they will have enough effect)

- Third, these yields seem a little random... well, they aren't that much, since I wanted to make references for each/most of them (Engineers make inter-city trading more efficient, like what they did after the Sengoku-jidai, making commerce flourish again ; Merchants were the one who made Western science enter Japan during Sakoku ; Artists made a lot of artisanal professions flourish because of all the unique process they required for their work ; Musicians were particularly appreciated in the Shogunal court, where Gagaku orchastras played during ritualistic events ; civil servants made rice transport between provinces more efficient etc). Also, I wanted to try associating each specialist to yields they aren't usually associated to (with limited success)

- Fourth, choosing which specialists are worked affects Japan gameplay : by using Merchants and Scientists, Japan makes more civs want to trade with it, but it'll also strenghten these nations with science and culture (and also itself, so it's a win-win situation, if Japan is ready to use its TRoutes for international trade, and not internal trade) while also giving bonus to tourism ; by using Writers, Artists and Engineers, Japan is inward-focused, playing tall with Writers and Artists by strenghtening the capital, playing wide with Engineers by strengthening city-connections ; finally, by using Musicians and Civil servants, the negative effects of using specialists are lessened.

I know it a bit complex, but I like the idea of a civilization who uses specialists to influence how their entire economy works.

Also, I scrapped the bonus from Oda's UA, since I consider it favors a gameplay which I think don't go well with the rest of the bonus (but these are only concepts, so it could come back).

 

[adan_eslavo]

For Sobieski:

• Friendship/DP thing would be similar to Sachems Council bonuses and I kinda like it. It also tries to keep the flavor. If you want to substitute main ability it has to have something else. Now it looks bland. I really like to add some religious aspect. Maybe if countries share the same religion then the bonus is bigger?
• I agree that mp bonus to horses was temporary and can be changed. Bonus to first attack seems powerful.
• Msc for every GP expended (not great work) was meant to be some mix of culture and warfare focus (extra flavor). I dont mind making full culture focus as third ability. What I wanted to avoid is full military focus.
• If you want to use Lion of Lechistan which is is good catch, then it would be good to show why he was a lion. Mix of 3 passives in its UA doesn't fit to the description.

 

[Jarula]

I do think when I write I just haven't played game for a few months. Not seriously since being kidnapped.

I don't memorize all UAs. Just trying help brainstorm. Last project I was down to help but one by one of my ideas were shot down but don't get me wrong y'all did an awesome job.

Some ideas for Spain and portugal.
Maybe Portugal or Spain a discovery bonus for ships similar to carthages quin or Brazil's scout.

Maybe for one of them gold per tile discovered scaling with era. And fot Spain bonuses to cities on other continents.

Portugal each tile yields ... 2 c 2 g 2 f 2 science maybe up to all ships...

For Spain each city conquered on another continent yields massive faith gold and culture yields... 50 faith 100 gold 20 culture.

For Japan I thought no more UC?

 

[pineappledan]

I guess I just see things very differently.

If someone suggested that a civ could get +10% CS for every vassal on empire you would likely say that is too weak. Having a mechanic which interacts with vassals like this makes Jan the only leader with a vassals mechanic, and a unique joint war mechanic all in 1. The more issues you find, the more attractive this sounds to me; Maybe it’s just an issue of framing?

If you end up using a joint war mechanic mainly as a vassal mechanic, then at most it is counterbalancing your warmonger penalty. All I feel it needs is a cap, maybe 35% (so 3 allies in a joint war max).

I have also reconsidered my proposal to have the debuff called ‘lion of lechistan’. The name of the debuff needs to be clear to a player who is hit by it, so it should be called something explicit like “at war with Poland”.

maybe I’m taking crazy pills. I dunno. I think a joint war mechanic is too good an idea to just discard

 

[Hinin]

maybe I’m taking crazy pills. I dunno. I think a joint war mechanic is too good an idea to just discard

Well, when you see what my new proposition for Ieyasu is... I think we all take the crazy pill once in a while...

I agree that a joint war mechanic is quite a good idea, but a malus doesn't seem to be the good way of handling it (as I said before, you can simply declare war on a far away player and ruin its day while doing anything just because of this). I think an effect that requires you to intervene directly into conflicts would be acceptable... but Sobieski already has a combat bonus for his mounted units, and giving a combat bonus would be quite similar to Hellenic league anyway, don't you think ?

 

[pineappledan]

A Mali’s Justus Linder Malus is more interesting to me, but if a bonus to poland’s Own units prevents what others see as unacceptable abuses, then that would be fine too

Well, that sounds like all the more reason to have heavy charge as the promotion for all melee mounted, instead of a % bonus vs full hp. Heavy charge gives no extra dmg, unless the unit can’t be pushed. Instead of a straight % boost, Jan would be playing horsey-billiards all game.
Furthermore, a % bonus on full hp for all units is at odds with the “charge” promotion line, which is especially odd because Jan is known for the greatest charge in history. The bonus being given to ALL mounted melee would feel like it’s just covering for the charge promotions

At any rate. That’s my thoughts. I will defer to Enrico or Adan, ultimately.

 

[Jarula]

Any thoughts on my ideas for Portugal Spain?

As far as gameplay they sound really cool.
Portugals makes a Navy and exploration into a chance at economic prosperity through discovery the later the better.

Spain's rewards conquest of other continents like they did historically MASSIVELY.

And I don't play with vassals do any of y'all?

 

[HungryForFood]

I've read your Victoria ideas, and I like it, since I've been thinking of doing some sort of trade mechanic for GB because trade was important for the empire. As I am already planning to use Elizabeth's two UCs anyway, perhaps I can work with you for this. I think this will be good:

- All naval and embarked units gain +1 MP, Naval unis gold maintenance reduced by 25 %
- Gain +1 Trade Routes per X number of owned cities, X probably something like 4
- Can send Gold Internal Trade Routes, yields calculated as if it was International. (gives Culture and Science as if you're trading with an allied city state, I'm considering "yields not affected by distance" for this part as well, though I don't think its necessary)

3rd UC White Tower (thinking of doing something different here, perhaps Bank of England), but 4th UC will be Redcoat. Also will include JFD's Elizabeth changes, which can be disabled in a config file.