Alternate Leaders for VP project thread

[Jarula]

Idea for Bank of England grants scaling with era gold and science for each trade route sent both to and from an English city...?

 

[Hinin]

I've read your Victoria ideas, and I like it, since I've been thinking of doing some sort of trade mechanic for GB because trade was important for the empire. As I am already planning to use Elizabeth's two UCs anyway, perhaps I can work with you for this. I think this will be good:

- All naval and embarked units gain +1 MP, Naval unis gold maintenance reduced by 25 %
- Gain +1 Trade Routes per X number of owned cities, X probably something like 4
- Can send Gold Internal Trade Routes, yields calculated as if it was International. (gives Culture and Science as if you're trading with an allied city state, I'm considering "yields not affected by distance" for this part as well, though I don't think its necessary)

3rd UC White Tower (thinking of doing something different here, perhaps Bank of England), but 4th UC will be Redcoat. Also will include JFD's Elizabeth changes, which can be disabled in a config file.

I am happy to see you interested here.

First, let me review what you are suggesting in term of UA :

- I don't think it is a good idea to make the number of bonus TRoutes scale with number of owned cities, because it would be very good no matter the situation (you would just have to expand a lot of obtain a bunch of TRoutes), while what I was suggesting (+1 per conquered capital and vassal) requires you to take a minimum of risk while also letting you play with a relatively small number of cities if you want (a bunch of directly controlled cities in the mainland and conquered capitals around the world to send TRoutes to Albion). I don't say that what I suggested is the best solution (far from it), but I think that, for now, we should stick to it (we don't want Victoria to be Enrico Dandolo, after all).

- Coding an entire new type of trade route seems a bit difficult to me (but, having no practical experience in coding, I would be happy to be proven wrong), but the idea is interesting. Also, I think making these TRoutes not affected by distance would be trespassing in Ahmad al-Mansur territory, and would be a bit counter-intuitive with the idea of having cities as far as possible from the mainland... Maybe instead we could do so that distance affects Victoria TRoutes 50 % more (so a short TRoute would bring even less yield, but a long, and so more risky, TRoute would bring a lot more) ?


Second, let's talk about the idea of a cooperative work (thank you for your proposition, by the way ). As I said in the first posts, except for technical reasons (ex. : Tokugawa Ieyasu, whose bonus is too long to be written within the UA window, so requires a unique palace), I'm against changing the UCs of a civilization for two entirely subjective reasons :
- It would go out of the original scope of the modmod, and I don't like the idea of beginning to modify what a project is mid-way. I would prefer creating a separate project instead.
- I like the concept itself of changing a civilization without touching to its UCs : it brings good design challenges but won't be (I hope) too complex and time-consuming for those who will try to code the leaders.
However, it doesn't mean that I'm against a cooperation. It simply means that I am more for the creation of two versions of Victoria : one with only UA/art/AI personality changes (integrated within this modmod), and the other with additionnal UCs changes (and maybe UA modifications compared to the first one to synergize with the new UCs). This modmod would be coded so that, when the second, "UC version", of it is present, the "UA-only version" is replaced by it.

What is you opinion on all of this ?


Also, what do you all think of what I suggested for Tokugawa Ieyasu in the previous page ?

 

[HungryForFood]

- I don't think it is a good idea to make the number of bonus TRoutes...

Making it applicable to more situations was the purpose though, since from observation it is rare for the AI to conquer more than 1 or 2 capitals. And Victoria is still not the same as Venice. Say in the late game you get 12 trade routes, Venice will get 12 more, while Victoria will need 48 cities to match that (if 1 per 4). If you can manage to hold on to that many cities, you have probably won already.

Also, Venice can stay tall while having those extra trade routes, so the yields are not diluted, while Victoria necessarily has to expand.

- Coding an entire new type of trade route seems a bit difficult...

You don't have to worry too much about the coding aspect. I can edit the DLL, though I haven't looked at the trade route codes before. And being similar with Morocco is precisely why I put the yield from distance thing as a maybe. I think scrapping that is fine. Also, I think the distance by yield thing in the DLL works by reducing yields if the trade route is too short, so it will not work the way you describe it.

Second, let's talk about the idea of a cooperative work...

Two versions is simple, that's not a problem.

 

[Hinin]

Making it applicable to more situations was the purpose though, since from observation it is rare for the AI to conquer more than 1 or 2 capitals. And Victoria is still not the same as Venice. Say in the late game you get 12 trade routes, Venice will get 12 more, while Victoria will need 48 cities to match that (if 1 per 4). If you can manage to hold on to that many cities, you have probably won already.

Also, Venice can stay tall while having those extra trade routes, so the yields are not diluted, while Victoria necessarily has to expand.

In that case, maybe we could a sort of compromise/hybrid : "Gain an additionnal TR for every 6 owned cities and every vassal"
=> since capitals will count as conquered cities, I scrapped that part
=> I increased the number of cities required for each TR, for I think TR are already so powerful in the right hands that having too much of them without downsides (like Venice) would make Victoria overpowered.

I'm wondering though : how would the game react if you lose a vassal or cities, and so your number of available trade routes becomes lower than you number of trade units ?

You don't have to worry too much about the coding aspect. I can edit the DLL, though I haven't looked at the trade route codes before. And being similar with Morocco is precisely why I put the yield from distance thing as a maybe. I think scrapping that is fine. Also, I think the distance by yield thing in the DLL works by reducing yields if the trade route is too short, so it will not work the way you describe it.

I'll scrap this idea then (moreover, it could cause problems on the smallest maps).
Question : Is it possible to modify the range of only one type of TR (international/internal TR) ? As you know, one of my ideas was to make internal TR have unlimited range for Victoria, but, even if I don't think that's a good idea anymore (since there is a point in the game when this bonus becomes superfluous, simply because a lot of techs and buildings increase the range of TR), I wanted to know if having selective effects on TR is possible.

Two versions is simple, that's not a problem.

Let's do this then.

 

[HungryForFood]

Idea for Bank of England grants scaling with era gold and science for each trade route sent both to and from an English city...?

One of the big reasons the British Empire got so big was the easy access to finance. The British government could easily borrow to fund whatever adventures they want, so this UC should do something along that lines.

In that case, maybe we could a sort of compromise/hybrid...

Including vassals seems good. Balance can always be tweaked by varying X in per X owned cities later on.

I'm wondering though : how would the game react if you lose a vassal or cities, and so your number of available trade routes becomes lower than you number of trade units ?

I am guessing that it is not too big of a deal, since there is already a case like this in game: having a wonder that grants trade routes, then losing it. Google gives me this, so it seems you'll be over the limit until it gets pillaged or your limit increases.

Question : Is it possible to modify the range of only one type of TR (international/internal TR) ?

No idea, never looked at that part of the code before, but I don't see why not.

Let's do this then.

I'm finishing my Roosevelt update, this will be next.

 

[Hinin]

New UAs for Sobieski and Victoria.

Spoiler Jan III Sobieski Poland => Being Reworked :

(with the help of adan_eslavo, Enrico Swagolo, pineappledan)

Poland – Jan III Sobieski – Fidei defensor

- When you complete a favorable peace treaty, gain a small amount of Faith and Food, scaling with era. Multiply that amount by the number of civilizations fighting against the same opponent (+100 % by civilization, +100 % if the opponent has a different Majority religion than yours).

- All Melee Mounted units have the “Movement to General” and "Heavy Charge" promotions.

- +10 % Faith and +5 % Supply cap from population per Declaration of Friendship.

Spoiler Victoria Britain (uses England UCs ; collaboration with HungryForFood) :

Britain - Victoria - Sun never Sets
- All naval and embarked units gain +1 MP, Naval unis gold maintenance reduced by 25 %

- Gain +1 Trade Routes for every 6 cities owned and every vassal.

- Can send Gold Internal Trade Routes, yields calculated as if it was International. (gives Culture and Science as if you're trading with an allied city state ; yields affected by distance).

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

New UAs for Sobieski and Victoria.

Spoiler Jan III Sobieski Poland => Being Reworked :

(with the help of adan_eslavo, Enrico Swagolo, pineappledan)

Poland – Jan III Sobieski – Fidei defensor

- When you complete a favorable peace treaty, gain a small amount of Faith and Food, scaling with era. Multiply that amount by the number of civilizations fighting against the same opponent (+100 % by civilization, +100 % if the opponent has a different Majority religion than yours).

- All Melee Mounted units have the “Movement to General” and "Heavy Charge" promotions.

- +10 % Faith and +5 % Supply cap from population per Declaration of Friendship.

Spoiler Victoria Britain (uses England UCs ; collaboration with HungryForFood) :

Britain - Victoria - Sun never Sets
- All naval and embarked units gain +1 MP, Naval unis gold maintenance reduced by 25 %

- Gain +1 Trade Routes for every 6 cities owned and every vassal.

- Can send Gold Internal Trade Routes, yields calculated as if it was International. (gives Culture and Science as if you're trading with an allied city state ; yields affected by distance).

Victoria seems interesting and I'd like to give her a try, and this Jan seems relatively cool, or at least his first two parts are. I don't think the DoF bonus is worth much though. +10% Faith is not much and if the game will round it down to lower number, it's going to give 0 Faith in most cities for most of the game. AI might be confused with what it should be doing, too, with one bonus rewarding pure friendship (but not much), the other to reward warmongering.
The third part could be changed to have him gain a small amount of bonus Faith (and/or some other yield) every time he adopts a policy, scaling with the policy number. It'd add some sort of a similarity with Casimir.

 

[Hinin]

The third part could be changed to have him gain a small amount of bonus Faith (and/or some other yield) every time he adopts a policy, scaling with the policy number. It'd add some sort of a similarity with Casimir.

I agree that DoF isn't a stable enough source of bonus to make a UA depend on it (the first bonus already rewards you if you managed to form alliances)... But I don't think giving a bonus scaling with the number of policies would be appropriate : it is it a faith bonus, it would be either anecdotic or too powerful for a civilization who has only a minor focus on religion... Maybe a supply cap from population percentage bonus (like, +2 % per policy, so it would become more and more potent troughout the game) ?

 

[pineappledan]

You could have it also scale with defensive pacts. I wouldn't make it only defensive pactgs, because then that part of the UA wouldn't get unlocked until medieval, but yeah

 

[Jarula]

Any thoughts on my portugaP and Spain?

Full of uc jk Spain bonuses for conquering overseas colonies and Portugal naval units get similar to bandierante except mostly gold.

 

[Hinin]

Any thoughts on my portugaP and Spain?

Full of uc jk Spain bonuses for conquering overseas colonies and Portugal naval units get similar to bandierante except mostly gold.

Isabella Spain already gain yields from conquering things, so it would be redundant.
For Portugal, check out the 3/4 UCs for VP modmod, and you'll understand.

You could have it also scale with defensive pacts. I wouldn't make it only defensive pactgs, because then that part of the UA wouldn't get unlocked until medieval, but yeah

If added to the DoF bonus, this could indeed lead to more important bonus, and would synergize with the first bonus in case of defensive war.

AI might be confused with what it should be doing, too, with one bonus rewarding pure friendship (but not much), the other to reward warmongering.

The first bonus rewards winning wars, not conquering cities, which is the first source of warmongering penalty. Because of this, Sobieski can stay friendly with most civilizations while openly fighting against one (so his personality would be friendly, but bold and unforgiving).

 

[pineappledan]

The first bonus rewards winning wars, not conquering cities, which is the first source of warmongering penalty. Because of this, Sobieski can stay friendly with most civilizations while openly fighting against one (so his personality would be friendly, but bold and unforgiving).

Indeed, high flavors towards military buildup, loyalty and low tolerance for warmongers. It's funny how discussion of this 1 civ has overtaken this thread. I'm amused that the Americans have nothing to say about Roosevelt.

 

[Hinin]

Well, since so much people have been invested in designing Sobieski, why not make it the first leader on which we work on ?

Just so we can measure up the task at hand, here is a list of the parts of a civilization leader :
- a leaderscreen
- a leader loading screen + a loading screen map
- a Dawn of Man loading text
- a civilopedia article
- unique dialogue lines (introduction + defeat + some unique lines here and there)
- an AI personality
- a UA
- a city list
- a spy list
- a civ attributes list (culture, prefered religion, starting bias, etc)
- a peace theme and a war theme
- a civ color
- a civ icon

In this list, I've underlined the parts that are available for Sobieski :
- leaderscreen + leader loading screen + loading screen map here
- city list + spy list : we can use the one used by Casimir, but feel free to do modifications if you want
- for now, here are the peace theme and the war theme that I have selected, but feel free to propose other things
- for the civ colors and icon, I propose that we keep the Polish eagle Casimir III has, but change the colors to brown-dark red background with off white icon (similar to the ones in the mod by LastSword)
- the mod by LastSword contains some intro and defeat lines, but I don't think it contains the amount of unique lines each leader in VP has ; we can decide to add some or not

If you are interested, then tell, so that we can decide who do what. Since you all have your own projects, this first leader wouldn't have to be done quickly, but it would allow us to see how much work each leader requires.

Also, one question : do the leader personalities in VP contain more variables (like "Like to generate GAge points" for example) than in vanilla Civ V ? If that's the case, do you have a list on which I can work on for future leaders ?

P.S. : Also, if we want to add leaders, finding the mod that allows multiple leaders to be associated to the same civilization is essential.
It was quite a known mod some years ago, but I have not been able to find its name for now. Here is a picture of how it looks ingame with the mod activated...
I hope this mod is compatible with the EUI (from the few things I know, I think the chances it isn't aren't low)...

Spoiler Picture :

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Maybe war theme

(could work as Peace I guess) or

or

, but the war theme you present seems okay
Peace

or

or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

City list can be the same, but the capital should be Krakow, not Warsaw.

 

[Hinin]

I like Piesn Jana more for a peace theme (what I proposed evoked wilderness too much for a leader whose leaderscreen is "indoor"), but I think the war theme I found fits a bit better than what you proposed (and it seems you don't dislike it), so, for now, I'll keep it.

Also, I agree with your city list, but I'm not Polish, so my vote doesn't really count here.

Thanks.

 

[Hinin]

Celtic patch

Changes for Vercingetorix of the Arverni, and new Celtic leader, Brennus of the Prausi.

Spoiler Vercingetorix Celts :

Celts – Vercingetorix – Pride of Gergovia

- Has a unique set of Pantheon Beliefs.

- When killing an enemy unit, gain GEngineer and GMerchant points in your capital (1x CS of the killed unit)

- All Military land units have the "Carnyx" promotion (whenever the unit dies, all adjacent allies gain the “Battle Fury” promotion (+15 % RCS/CS) for 10 turns).

=> Changes the names of the Scythed Chariot promotions
=> Changes the name of the Pictish warrior to Galatis

While retaining the unique Celtic pantheons, Vercingetorix is less faith focused (although the Pictish warriors can still create a religion by themselves) and cannot contain the effects of his pantheon among his converted neighbours, which can be dangerous.

The second bonus allows you to strengthen your economy by fighting in offensive or defensive wars (or by killing barbarians). In the early game, use your unique units to harass your neighbours and kill as much units as possible to quickly gain GPeople. Settling just next to your opponent is also a way to provoke attacks against you and generate more GP points while benefiting from "anti-warmonger" combat bonus.

The third bonus allow you to create sorts of temporary GGeneral ersatz throughout your frontline by sacrificing units : it can allow some comebacks, diminish the dangers of focusing on powerful enemy units with less powerful ones, but requires the production of additionnal troops to stay useful (also, don't sacrifice your elite units for that, use your shirtless warriors ! ).

In term of personality, he will be focused on expansion and infrastructure. He will try to form alliances and defensive pacts when possible, but will also attack his weakest neighbours. When at war, he will use a lot of mobile and defensive units, but will have difficulties in sieges.

Also, he will have the sickest war theme (a rearranged version of the soundtrack of an Asterix movie by the creators of the MC's Gallic civilization).

Spoiler Vercingetorix war theme :

Spoiler Brennus Celts :

Brennus - Journey to Galatia

- Has a unique set of Pantheon Beliefs

- Civilian land units have the "ignore terrain cost" promotion

- When settling or conquering a city, gain a Military land unit and a Worker

This Brennus isn't the one who attacked and pillaged Rome during the the 4th century BC. He was one of the chiefs leading the Gallic invasions of the Balkans (leaving Gauls to settle other lands), and is famous for his attack on Delphi. Although he failed and was killed in the aftermath, his men were the one who later founded the kingdom of Gallatia, in central Anatolia.

In term of bonus, this leader is all about expansion : his civilians will be able to travel as fast as his scouts, and so settling faraway is much easier in the early game. By obtaining a military unit and a worker whenever settling, Brennus can also quickly improve and protect his new holdings, and maybe launch expeditions against neighbours, using his unique units.

Like Vercingetorix, Brennus will benefit from the unique Celtic pantheons, but without the "protective" bonus Boudicca has. It means that foreign pressure can become an issue, even more for Brennus, who'll have faraway cities, more exposed to conversion and attacks.

Beware of isolation unhappiness and excessive growth. You'll have to find ways to connect, protect and develop your territories, or the benefits of your bonus will come back to bite you.

 

[HungryForFood]

It's alive!

Now hopefully I can finish up the DLL stuff before the next VP version.

Also, @Hinin, can you start the ModBuddy project? I need a mod ID soon for the two version stuff.

 

[Hinin]

It's alive!

Thank you for your hard work !
Just to be sure, what are the elements influencing the yields of these internal gold TRoutes (the amount of gold the TR gives in your pictures frightens me a bit) ?

Also, @Hinin, can you start the ModBuddy project? I need a mod ID soon for the two version stuff.

I'm working on that, but I'm not experienced in that domain and I don't want to make mistakes, so...

 

[HungryForFood]

Just to be sure, what are the elements influencing the yields of these internal gold TRoutes (the amount of gold the TR gives in your pictures frightens me a bit) ?

Same as normal international trade routes, with small differences: gets bonuses as if trading with allied city state, and always gets the full open borders modifier. Value in screenshot seems high because because there's a Caravansary and Custom House in both cities.

I'm working on that, but I'm not experienced in that domain and I don't want to make mistakes, so...

All I need is a mod ID, so all you need to do is create new project (and then stick with that project). You don't have to do any code at all.

 

[Hinin]

Same as normal international trade routes, with small differences: gets bonuses as if trading with allied city state, and always gets the full open borders modifier. Value in screenshot seems high because because there's a Caravansary and Custom House in both cities.

This is the answer I was expecting, but I wanted to be sure. Thks.

All I need is a mod ID, so all you need to do is create new project (and then stick with that project). You don't have to do any code at all.

You mean something like this (sorry in advance if that's not what you meant... I can be quite slow...) ?

NB : pineappledan suggested that, since Victoria will gain a lot of gold with her unique internal TR, we should maybe scrap the "reduced maintenance cost by 25 % on naval units" bonus. I agree with him, but I wanted to know your opinion.