Alternate Leaders for VP project thread
- Thread starter Hinin
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Because GAge = +20 % culture + +50 % improvement rate, and that Rome have the Colosseum, which give a large amount of GA points on each kill. Combined, the UA and the Colosseum will make sure that Hadrian Rome will have plenty of GAges during the game.
Please, @pineappledan, @adan_eslavo, I know that you have other things to do (like answering to that can of worms that is now the panopticon thread), but do you have time for reviews of some of the concepts I've posted ?
I will try something tomorrow but I don't promise.
pineappledan
Deity
Nothin jumps out at me, except I'm still not sold on the Hadrian concept. the 15% production in non-capital cities for every building in the capital actually feels more Hadrian and Augustus. Maybe look at both and consider which one can be revamped more effectively
Star War looks an awful lot like a worse version of the Aztec UA.
Star War looks an awful lot like a worse version of the Aztec UA.
You've already been of great help, so don't feel forced to review the concepts if you don't have time.
By "nothing jumps at me", do you mean that no concept seems interesting enough, or that you are fine wiht all concepts except Hadrian and Muluc ?
For the Hadrian part, I understand what you are saying, and was waiting for something like this to be told. To me, there are three justifications to the fact I choose the conquest bonus over the production bonus for Rome :
- First and foremost, Hadrian was a curious man, respectful of (most of) the cultures he came into contact with without shying away from conquest when needed (so keeping the UB of conquered cities seemed quite on touch with that). At the same time, even if, under his rule, a lot of infrastructures were built, he wasn't very often in Rome, preferring visiting the frontier cities. Because of this, it seemed to me that it would have been a bit strange to give him a bonus focused on the capital (even though it benefits other cities, it is essentialy a bonus that say : everybody, copy Rome).
- On the other hand, Augustus, who "found a city of bricks and left it a city of marble", seemed much more akin to concentrate his efforts on Rome, and copy what was built in the capital in all his empire
- Finally, Hadrian's UA is much more geared toward a "wide" empire capable of conquering and integrating cities quickly through infrastructues, and less about actual production bonus (the fact that the first bonus of the UA helps you keep the buildings of the cities you've conquered is already quite a production bonus).
Well, it's an early concept, and I agree with you that it's quite bland and weak. As you surely have noticed, this UA take direct inspiration of the time you talked about Mayan decisions for the E&D VP compatibility mod : I wanted to make so that this leader is capable of sudden, but timed, bursts of agressivity, while also benefiting from the science/faith bonus from the Mayan UI, and the combat bonus from the Mayan UB2. I'm sure there are indeed ways to improve the concept, but I have difficulties finding them for now, hence why I asked help.
......Stop with NWonder/Culture Rome, it simply won't happen......If you want to do it, do it yourself....... You're getting on my nerves........
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Sorry not trying to get on anyone's nerves.
Will do it myself eventually (Cultured Rome).
Don't understand the contempt for my idea nor the hatred of me I have over 5000 hours on civ and really wasn't spamming. Cest nest pas apprécié.
The Mayan one is cool but why not production or food to nearest city? Mayans we're not supwr technically advanced but their cities were epic.
I'm surprised nobody wants to do legendary leaders like dragon emperor scorpion emporer Romulus etc...
Y not for India Ashoka?
Will do it myself eventually (Cultured Rome).
Don't understand the contempt for my idea nor the hatred of me I have over 5000 hours on civ and really wasn't spamming. Cest nest pas apprécié.
The Mayan one is cool but why not production or food to nearest city? Mayans we're not supwr technically advanced but their cities were epic.
I'm surprised nobody wants to do legendary leaders like dragon emperor scorpion emporer Romulus etc...
Y not for India Ashoka?
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pineappledan
Deity
What about this?
All military units receive star war promotion for 10 turns on every b’ak’tun
Star War promotion
science and faith from kills (1.5xunit strength)
Bonus HP and Food from pillage (+10hp, +20 food scaling with era)
+1 unit attack (like blitz or logistics)
Bonus CS and movement is already done by the Patz court and Darius’ golden age bonus. I would stay away from bonus attack modifiers
You would therefore need to make 3 promotions actually, a ranged, melee and air variant, since they all use different tables to grant bonus attacks
All military units receive star war promotion for 10 turns on every b’ak’tun
Star War promotion
science and faith from kills (1.5xunit strength)
Bonus HP and Food from pillage (+10hp, +20 food scaling with era)
+1 unit attack (like blitz or logistics)
Bonus CS and movement is already done by the Patz court and Darius’ golden age bonus. I would stay away from bonus attack modifiers
You would therefore need to make 3 promotions actually, a ranged, melee and air variant, since they all use different tables to grant bonus attacks
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pineappledan
Deity
I tried to change his mind from chandragupta to Ashoka, but he wouldn’t budge
Well, it's not hatred at all, more like irritation because of how you spam us with the same suggestions over and over again, on that thread or on the previous one. I don't question your experience, more your methods.
Also, thanks for the French sentence (always nice), but a more correct version in that situation would be : "C'est désagréable." or "Ce n'est pas appréciable" (what you said was more like talking about a drama, and saying that this drama hasn't become popular, even though you think it is good).
Good. It is quite violent, but it lasts only ten turns, so I think it's fine (you won't conquer much with this).
With Muluc, knowing the turns where b'ak'tun and will be even more important than for Pacal.
I tried to change his mind from chandragupta to Ashoka, but he wouldn’t budge
Well, I'm not against a more violent India nor Ashoka, but I wasn't convinced by what you proposed. That doesn't mean that I have something else right now.
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2013
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The civs seem pretty cool, I like how most leaders share parts of their UA with the existing UA. Hammurabi, Peter and Frederick are probably the ones I like the most, they seem pretty unique and convenient. I like the idea, hope to see it realised in the future.
I only don't like a few civs like Jan III Sobieski, he seems a bit weak, like a poor man's Spain with +1 mov horses that loses a ton of utility instead, what is nearly a guarantee of a religion (unless you're AI), easier city development, no need to spend faith on missionaries/inquisitors as much, faith boats etc. Maybe I'm underrating the +1 movement to horses, but he doesn't seem like something I'd ever pick over Casimir.
I only don't like a few civs like Jan III Sobieski, he seems a bit weak, like a poor man's Spain with +1 mov horses that loses a ton of utility instead, what is nearly a guarantee of a religion (unless you're AI), easier city development, no need to spend faith on missionaries/inquisitors as much, faith boats etc. Maybe I'm underrating the +1 movement to horses, but he doesn't seem like something I'd ever pick over Casimir.
Well, the bonus for Jan III Sobieski are less useful for expansion and conquest, but is better suited for a defensive/harassement playstyle : you don't have to conquer a city to trigger the bonus, so you can simply pillage and kill enemy units, using the fact that your mounted units (which aren't suited for attacking cities) will be very efficient at killing units, and can use their extra movement both to pillage more and to catch up or flee enemies. The goal is only gaining warscore, and crippling your opponents.
With this playstyle, you can gain a lot of faith and food without suffering much warmonger penalty : the food bonus will affect all you cities (so you'll have at least a few new citizens at the end), and the faith can help you create a religion (if you battle early) or create GProphets (a bunch of Holy Sites can bring a decent amount of tourism and culture).
In the end, it is a playstyle between the Aztecs and Spain, more suited for a defensive playstyle.
Think of Rohan. No conquest, only glory.
Spoiler Rohan silliness :
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pineappledan
Deity
I don't like the Jan stuff either, just my 2 cents... Got a lot of passionate pols here though, so I just keep my mouth shut.
What I meant with my comment about Hadrian is what if you just gave the base Rome UA to Hadrian and made a new UA for Augustus instead? Might have an easier time thinking of something for him
What I meant with my comment about Hadrian is what if you just gave the base Rome UA to Hadrian and made a new UA for Augustus instead? Might have an easier time thinking of something for him
If you are sceptic about the current Jan UA, have you a proposition for other bonus ?
Once again, have you an idea for Augustus ? I think the current Roman UA fits him well.
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2013
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- 2,387
Well, the bonus for Jan III Sobieski are less useful for expansion and conquest, but is better suited for a defensive/harassement playstyle : you don't have to conquer a city to trigger the bonus, so you can simply pillage and kill enemy units, using the fact that your mounted units (which aren't suited for attacking cities) will be very efficient at killing units, and can use their extra movement both to pillage more and to catch up or flee enemies. The goal is only gaining warscore, and crippling your opponents.
With this playstyle, you can gain a lot of faith and food without suffering much warmonger penalty : the food bonus will affect all you cities (so you'll have at least a few new citizens at the end), and the faith can help you create a religion (if you battle early) or create GProphets (a bunch of Holy Sites can bring a decent amount of tourism and culture).
In the end, it is a playstyle between the Aztecs and Spain, more suited for a defensive playstyle.
Think of Rohan. No conquest, only glory.
Spoiler Rohan silliness :
I just don't see it, they're poor man's Spain anyway. Nothing in their roster helps with being defensive, they get no great bonus or ability that pushes them towards defensive, they're not like Korea, Celts Assyria who could perhaps turtle as others attack or get outera'd, they don't have synergy like Spain so conquest = +pop in capital = +Gold + Faith on top of what UA provides, which is a ton of Faith already. Sobieski's bonus is gained only if they fight, Ducal Stable is only a really good building if you're lucky with the terrain. If you want to pillage to get war score, why not just play Harald Bluetooth to get Culture + Production for that while not paying with movement for pillaging (definitely way more useful than +1 mov for pillaging purposes)? You'll easily get hundreds per city come medieval/renaissance. By playing defensively while their UB is not great scientifically/culturally, they only ensure others with bigger bonuses get richer as Poland gets less so. They just feel like a mix of Spain and Aztecs with a questionably useful addon because +1 supply per great work doesn't help a civ pushed towards Authority + Fealty, because Castles + Armouries will be gotten fast and I think Ducal also helps with that, you won't get that many great works and +1 movement that, while possibly useful, doesn't seem all that much to me.
Sobieski would be fit more an UA that gets +CS/yields/something when fighting guys who bullied or attacked your CS/Civ allies/guys with the same religion or you while also getting something annoying that makes AI more inclined to attack him. Maybe have him reduce or even nullify the pressure of religions he conquers cities of or kills units of (for a few turns), while doing the same simultaneously boosts his pressure and missionaries for the same duration, if it's possible that is. That on top of some Faith somewhere, like maybe a pseudo-founder based on his majority religion/pantheon followers so he gets to be founding a religion easier, benefits from his religion being strong (whether he founds or not?) and he's good to go. AI'd need to want to spread the religion and be recommended to take founders like Holy Law/Transcendence/etc. Still defensive, but he's defensive because he's annoying and worth attacking, and if you attack him or his friends, he's stronger for a few turns. It might be weak or overpowered, I don't know, but it seems more interesting if it's even possible.
AI would also need to know they should be mad if it affects them, though - if, let's say, Poland founds Catholicism, Arabia founds Islam and spreads it to Germany, then Germany fights Poland and Jan not only reduces pressure for a few turns by killing German units, but then also takes a German city with majority Islam and because of that Islam's pressure everywhere is stopped for a few turns while Catholicism suddenly gets a huge boost, Harun should be mad if he wants to spread.
I'm Polish and I don't like this UA because he seems sort of weak and a bit boring. I see the flavour, but it could be realised in a way that doesn't feel like Spain that requires more effort, while losing a few very good traits. It's a bit boring as it is currently, too, being basically a mishmash of Aztec and Spanish UAs that loses much of what makes them strong (probably past-tense in Aztec's case, they seem overnerfed to me but that's a different matter altogether).
pineappledan
Deity
Well adding +move to mounted is just what the mongols do already. He led the single largest cavalry charge in history, so I think a bonus to mounted melee is good, but maybe not +move. Something to play off a joint war mechanic would be more unique and hasn’t been done, since his greatest legacy is defending another country from attack, and his close ties to both the French and HRE courts.
Jan III Sobieski - Lion of Lechistan
Enemy civilizations at war with Poland lose
combat strength for every civ also at war with them (-5% if at war with Poland, -10% for every additional civ in a joint war)
All melee mounted and armour units have the “Relief of Vienna” promotion
Reduced crime on empire for both civs for every declaration of friendship (10% for both civs)
Relief of Vienna - +10% in open terrain. +5% attack for every movement point spent that turn. Transfers movement to great general
Jan III Sobieski - Lion of Lechistan
Enemy civilizations at war with Poland lose
combat strength for every civ also at war with them (-5% if at war with Poland, -10% for every additional civ in a joint war)All melee mounted and armour units have the “Relief of Vienna” promotion
Reduced crime on empire for both civs for every declaration of friendship (10% for both civs)
Relief of Vienna - +10%
in open terrain. +5% attack for every movement point spent that turn. Transfers movement to great general
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Love pinapples...
Turns Poland into a terror...
As a short 1/4 polish 1/4 Italian I love it. Games with a terrifying Poland.
Problem is it makes them scarier than mongolia
Why not leave crime as is and give them small cultural or faith bonus and make them lil more defensive.
Turns Poland into a terror...
As a short 1/4 polish 1/4 Italian I love it. Games with a terrifying Poland.
Problem is it makes them scarier than mongolia
Why not leave crime as is and give them small cultural or faith bonus and make them lil more defensive.
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But... but... I thought you were a groovy Venitian with twice the swag of people from other nations... My life is a lie...
Between this name (Ottoman in origin, hence the -stan), and the Fidei defensor, I hesitate : the first is more focused on his battle prowess, and the second on the reasons of his battles...
Enemy civilizations at war with Poland lose
The idea is quite interesting, but I fear it could be too powerful... I'm considering keeping the second part of the bonus (-10 % bonus for every additionnal civ at war).
All melee mounted and armour units have the “Relief of Vienna” promotion
Relief of Vienna - +10%
This kind of bonus has already been seen many times in other times, and each time it has bothered me... I don't know exactly how to explain it, but it seems quite exploitable and artificial as a bonus (you can go back and forth just to increase the bonus before striking...). I prefer that a bonus related to movement rewards you for not moving instead of this... I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced...
I like how it is a reference to a now disappeared bonus of the Polish UA in VP, but I find this bonus quite anedotic and weak. It would have been more powerful if it was a boredom or poverty reduction bonus (since these are much more akin to be increased by the actions of other civilizations).
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