"'American Rambo' goes berserk" in Lahore, Pakistan

[Formaldehyde]

Are you serious?

How would you like it if chinese spys rolled in and busted up your neighbourhood...

Or Israeli spies assassinating your scientists.

 

[Karalysia]

What about the entirely hypothetical situation where a "diplomat", who is actually just a common mercenary and doesn't even have a diplomatic passport, murders two innocent people while his friend runs over and killed a third? Diplomatic immunity?

If he doesn't have diplomatic immunity then serve up the sacrificial lamb. The US government can't protect its citizens from everything they do abroad if they're not acting in official capacity.

Are you serious?

How would you like it if chinese spys rolled in and busted up your neighbourhood...

My neighborhood? Would probably be an improvement.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Why should the US government ever protect its citizens from acts of murder and other serious felonies in foreign countries?

I think the only time the US, or any country, should intercede in such a way is when they think the charges are clearly false. In those rare cases, they should also take other drastic diplomatic action against the country for making false accusations against US citizens. Any other time they should willingly and openly suspend diplomatic rights, as they expect other foreign countries to do in the US.

When you decide to live in a foreign country you still should be responsible for your acts, even if you have a diplomatic passport which essentially acts as a "get out of jail free" card. Diplomatic credentials should never be a license to kill. I think that is clearly misusing them.

A good case in point are the 13 CIA agents who kidnapped an Imam in Italy in 2005. Kidnapping should never be tolerated by a country that claims to be just and honorable. They should be returned to face criminal charges.

 

[Silurian]

I'm not sure why we should shield diplomats from minor offenses that common citizens are not shielded from. If you jaywalk in a country that is strict on jaywalking... well, then you're taking a calculated risk and best of luck to you.

So what about farting in public.

Would you be happy for one of your diplomats to be arrested for doing that.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Doesn't 'American Rambo' impy this isn't murder?
I mean, Rambo didn't commit murder. That was manslaughter, and self-defense at that. That guy in the helicopter was trying to shoot him.
Unless you count Brian Dennehy...

 

[Japanrocks12]

So what about farting in public.

Would you be happy for one of your diplomats to be arrested for doing that.

Diplomats should no more be protected from stupid laws than any common citizen under the jurisdiction of that law.

 

[Silurian]

Diplomats should no more be protected from stupid laws than any common citizen under the jurisdiction of that law.

They are not common citizens of the country with the stupid law they are representatives of another country.

So would you be happy for your diplomats to give up having diplomatic immunity and refuse to allow diplomats to your country to have immunity: other countries can continue with diplomatic immunity as they wish.

 

[BSmith1068]

I'm not sure why we should shield diplomats from minor offenses that common citizens are not shielded from. If you jaywalk in a country that is strict on jaywalking... well, then you're taking a calculated risk and best of luck to you.

Because the diplomats are guests in this country, here at our invitation. As such, we hold them in higher regard than a random individual. They are here representing their country. The VAST majority of people with diplomatic immunity do not abuse the laws of the host country. For the few individuals that do, there are other methods of dealing with the transgressions besides the judicial system. Up to and including the permanent deportation of that individual and their family from the country.

Coming from a country that has a well established and quite fair judicial system, it is easy to complain that some people “don’t have to follow the law”. But remember that diplomatic immunity protects our people overseas just as much as it protects foreign diplomats here in this country.

Many, many countries that our diplomats live and work in every day do not have as well established justice systems, and having our good, hard working diplomats exposed to the potential negativities that running afoul of these systems entail would be quite counter productive to their jobs and lives.

It is hard to say what the real story is here in Pakistan. The individual involved may not even have diplomatic immunity, making the point moot. If the dude was indeed protecting himself, then I think we should do what we can to protect him. If he was acting in a less than noble manner, then we should consider letting him face justice in the Pakistani courts.

 

[BSmith1068]

And for the record, for all of my childhood I owned two passports. One was blue. The other was black.

 

[GhostWriter16]

On Diplomatic Immunity: I agree with it mostly to a point. I agree with it since all justice system are not righteous and fair, most are not. That said, for SERIOUS felonies (Bolded, since smoking pot isn't a serious felony) such as murder or rape, lock 'em up and to heck with international law.

 

[Silurian]

On Diplomatic Immunity: I agree with it mostly to a point. I agree with it since all justice system are not righteous and fair, most are not. That said, for SERIOUS felonies (Bolded, since smoking pot isn't a serious felony) such as murder or rape, lock 'em up and to heck with international law.

So you would be happy with a single US diplomat being arrested for rape after they had had sex with a single foreigner (I put single because I do not want to confuse the issue with adultery which is illegal in some countries but there again so is having sex when single in some countries). Then afterwards the foreigner is forced to make an accusation of rape.

So would it be ok for the US diplomat to be arrested then.

 

[emzie]

I'm not sure why we should shield diplomats from minor offenses that common citizens are not shielded from. If you jaywalk in a country that is strict on jaywalking... well, then you're taking a calculated risk and best of luck to you.

There are some very strange laws in the world, many that can be a hindrance to diplomacy. Diplomatic immunity is essential for diplomacy, lest you want American consular staff in Venezuela being arrested for... I dunno... being American.

Bring the "diplomat" back to the USA, an try him under US laws. If he found guilty then send him back. I don't like the idea of hiding behind immunity for serious crimes. But I do agree with a degree of immunity to prevent abuse of diplomats.

Diplomatic immunity doesn't mean one is above the law, it means one is exempt from the law of the country he or she is in. A decade or so ago, a Russian embassy official hit and killed a pedestrian here in Ottawa. The Russians wouldn't waive his immunity and we had little choice but to expel the man. When he returned to Russia he was tried and convicted of the DUI / deaths and went to prison there.

 

[Formaldehyde]

It sounds more like the Russians didn't trust the Canadians to be able to conduct a fair and impartial trial.

And how often are US citizens who don't have diplomatic immunity arrested in Venezuela for no apparent reason?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Pakistani police reject the self-defense claims. They are recommending that Davis be charged with murder.

http://www.voanews.com/english/news...S-Diplomats-Self-Defense-Claim-115869329.html

Pakistani police have rejected a detained U.S. diplomat's claim that he acted in self-defense when he shot dead two men last month in the eastern city of Lahore. Police are recommending the diplomat face murder charges.

Lahore Police Chief Aslam Tareen said Friday an investigation revealed Raymond Davis committed what the chief called "cold-blooded murder."

"The eyewitnesses [statements] and forensic reports showed that it has not been the self-defense case. So has tried to fire on them [and] 10 bullets were fired. Therefore, his self-defense plea was considered and that has been rejected by the investigators," Tareen said.

Washington's stance

Speaking to VOA on the latest developments in the case, U.S Embassy spokesperson Courtney Beale reiterated Washington's stance on the issue.

"We regret that this incident resulted in the loss of life. However, eyewitness accounts report [on the day of the incident] that the American acted in self-defense," Beale said. "There is no doubt that he has diplomatic immunity and we are working with the government of Pakistan to resolve this issue."

The United States insists its diplomat killed the Pakistanis because they were trying to rob him at gunpoint. The American has been in police custody since the shooting incident took place on January 27.

Tension increases

Davis's detention has strained relations between Washington and Islamabad. Washington is demanding the American be freed immediately, saying his continued detention is illegal under international agreements covering diplomats.

Pakistani leaders maintain it is for the country's courts to determine the fate of the American. They have avoided clear statements on whether he is a diplomat.

On Friday, a Lahore court ruled that Davis will remain in custody for an additional 14 days for further questioning and ordered the government to determine whether he has diplomatic immunity or not.

Members of a U.S. congressional delegation said earlier this week they told Pakistani leaders on a recent visit that the detention of the diplomat could affect U.S assistance to Pakistan.

A U.S. embassy spokesperson, however, denied reports the Obama administration threatened to expel Pakistan's Washington envoy, Hussain Haqqani, scale down diplomatic missions in Pakistan and cancel an upcoming U.S visit by President Asif Ali Zardari, if the diplomat is not freed.

 

[BuckyRea]

Xe makes me want to blow the dust off of the Neutrality Act of 1794 and lock up the lot of them. Unfortunately every violent act they perpetrate is part of US shadow policy & thus not an actual violation of the letter of the law. The violence they perpetrate without accountability is about keeping the gasoline flowing into my car. They're a big part of why the world hates the US.

They make it harder for the military to conduct the actual mission we have in Pakistan, stopping the spread of the Taliban, which hosted the people who attacked this country. At this point, allowing Xe to operate in south Asia is essentially rendering public support to the enemy.

 

[Formaldehyde]

It is just too bad that Iraq turned out to be too spineless and too much of a puppet of the US to do the same. What I don't get is why the US is claiming that an apparent mercenary has diplomatic immunity in the first place.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Where does it say he was working for Blackwater?

 

[BuckyRea]

Where does it say he was working for Blackwater?

One of the articles cited said either "alleged" or "was reported to be" or something like that. I just assumed the two articles I read on the matter were accurate and ran with it from there.

I've met quite a few foreign service officers in my time. None of them packed heat even during their more dangerous billets--FSOs believe in leaving professional work to the specialists.

 

[Formaldehyde]

There was an early report that he worked for Blackwater/Xe. But as I posted on page 2, he actually works for Hyperion Protective Consultants. But they may have very well subcontracted him to Blackwater/Xe since he apparently just another mercenary.

Either way, it is apparently a manfestation of the same problem. We have hired guns prancing around the world ruining our reputation in very sensitive areas.

 

[MobBoss]

There was an early report that he worked for Blackwater/Xe. But as I posted on page 2, he actually works for Hyperion Protective Consultants. But they may have very well subcontracted him to Blackwater/Xe since he apparently just another mercenary.

Either way, it is apparently a manfestation of the same problem. We have hired guns prancing around the world ruining our reputation in very sensitive areas.

I blame all those silly George Clooney movies that hype this kind of thing up.