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An alternative Deity Tier List (a.k.a. 'Don't Forget About Conquest')

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by consentient, Mar 13, 2015.

  1. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    Ancient and Classical Era naval units are way too underpowered and situational to be said to make the game easier to win. Sure if I build Dromons I can later upgrade them. But why would I?

    I want what I built in the early game to give me immediate rewards, otherwise it's a waste of hammers. On water maps the rating could change, but for the three types this list covers, they are too situational. Play 20 games as Byzantium or Carthage and see how often these units make it easier to win. I still think Dromons are worse than Triremes because I use the basic unit of the Neutrals for exploration. The advantages Quinqeremes have are negligible.


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  2. Matthew.

    Matthew. Deity

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    Overall I like your list, probably because I think we have similar approaches to the game: the idea that a strong military to simply take what you want, when you want, is often undervalued against turtle small empire type of play.

    I, of course, have some slightly different opinions on the placement of a few of the Civs, but pretty minor. Except for two. America and Greece as Tier 2???! Maybe I can get behind some arguments for them and consider them as Tier 3, maybe, but Tier 2 is too much IMO.

    Greece: Being artificially boosted by that gimmick 8 rating. It is true Deity AI Alexanders do well. It is also true Siam, and any other AI who focuses on city-states do well. i.e., city-state alliances are good, but this is apart from Greece's UA. The difficulty has never been holding on to city-states, it is getting the initial alliance. Greece gets a minor boost to finishing city-state quests to help bridge the gap between the lucky free alliance and getting the gold/spy to maintain it, but that is not worth an 8. Too situational, and any other Civ under those same favorable conditions would do nearly as well.

    I would rate Sweden's ability to drop the spare GG for the quick CS alliance to be at least as good (you rated it that way as well), if not better, and even in that scenario I think a rating of 8 is too generous. (On a side note, I find the rating of Caroleans to be surprisingly low. Generally it is easier to add more melee to your armies the later the game goes on, and being able to pick up double cover with march right out of the gates seems like it deserves higher than a 1)

    If the 8 were dropped down to a reasonable level, Greece's overall rating would plummet and they'd be no where near Tier 2.


    America: I've argued for them often enough (as they are usually towards the bottom of many tier lists), but at some point they just stop measuring up against some of the more powerful Civs. No argument on tile purchases (I purchase a lot of tiles myself, especially with hyper aggressive settling and stealing resources which should have been for another city/CS). The rating on the rest seems a tad too high.

    +1 sight is decent, but it has limits. I get the impression you are only rating it this high to try and get it over Shoshone, which is often regarded as "America but better". So you may get a few extra gold (30 instead of 15 for CS discovery) and an extra ruin or two (of which one will likely be something like barb camp location), shave a few turns off of uncovering the map, but is all this worth a 3? Ehh... I personally don't think so.

    Minutemen as well seem to be rated rather high for what they are. I don't value the +1 drill all that highly, nor do I think the GA points are that useful on the long-term. I do agree the movement bonuses can be good overall. Still, all this rates as a 3? I could agree on a 2.

    B17... meh. Yes, I know about the instant air repair promo if you have enough XP buildings, but bomber stacks are bomber stacks. The neutral version is powerful as is, a minor increase isn't a game changer. It would be similar to a UU battleship getting +1 range... okay great, but a regular battleship still rolls over everything with ease, the +1 isn't dramatically changing their effect on the game.

    And of course this is ignoring that your great war bombers will already be stacking promos for air repair, and if the game reaches full out bomber warfare, you are most likely in a winning position anyway. A 1/5, no different than your ratings on Cossacks, Panzer, and anything else with simply a minor, insignificant stat increase.

    So 7.5/10. Right behind Shoshone, exactly where they should be :p
     
  3. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    You can use the Dromon just fine for exploration. It is even better actually because it can take pot shots at barbs on land -- so it gets the +1 vision faster the trireme.

    Agreed, but still you give the UU a point. Which I think is fair -- as it is better.
     
  4. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    Ok, so a lot to discuss.

    1. CS alliances. These are the core of my strategy regardless off my degree of conquest. When I actually find spare time I will add a section on CS alliances to my Domination strategy guide, because I think that everyone, even players much better than me overall, are still undervaluing CS alliances. When going conquest, I drop most of my spare money into them, so have very little difficulty acquiring the alliance in the first place. And playing as Alex I find that I simply don't have to worry about them being usurped, especially with Patronage. Greece's UA is a very decent ratio multiplier, that's why it's rated so high.

    2. Caroleans. March is nice, but double Cover?? Where does that come from?

    3. Extra sight. You're ignoring the military applications of the UA, the boost to worker steals, and you're undervaluing the number of ruins and CS meetings you can get. I'm not rating them to put them above the Shoshone. The latter's bonuses are all early game, and these advantages have been given fair treatment, I believe. But extra sight lasts all game, long after Native Tongues has become irrelevant and your scouts are parked in cities.

    4. You might have a point about Minutemen and B17s. I'll investigate.




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  5. Bimblecrumbs

    Bimblecrumbs Warlord

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    Double cover on a Carolean comes from 60 experience from 4x xp buildings/social policies/wonders. Normally you must have 3 rough/open terrain bonuses to get march, so people usually go for cover beforehand. Standard rifles must wait until 210 xp for march and double cover.
     
  6. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    Interesting that people go for Cover. If I train a Carolina with 3 XP buildings (or more with HE, Brandenburg, etc.) then I'll go for rough/open and then Blitz. I'm a big fan of melee, and blitz in particular (assuming March beforehand).

    Cover is nice, but I actually want my melee units to get a bit damaged, and whether or not the city attack + 1 ranged attack kills them is more dependent on my tech pace. I think tech pace is still, wearyingly, a sizeable part of Domination on Deity :(
     
  7. Bimblecrumbs

    Bimblecrumbs Warlord

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    Well I said usually but that's mostly taken from the LPs I've watched, so not such a big sample size of players. I'd be interested to hear other peoples' opinions about cover vs. blitz vs. march.
     
  8. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    I used to take Blitz first before March, but now I take March, then Blitz, then Cover. I guess it suits my sloppy play style where most melee units are quite expendable, and my economy can easily support replacing them.

    But yes, this is definitely something I'd like to hear different opinions on, I second that.
     
  9. peddroelm

    peddroelm King

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    blitz above all :) Especially for when extra mobility is concerned (minuteman, woodsman, incan hill , ski infantry , Kilimanjaro, Darius) or life leech (Janissary &jaguar) .. Even on the most vanilla version can move out of position to finish foe on flat land and come back to safety out of range of most retaliation ..

    Then March then Cover ...

    Also it depends is playing a infantry line civ or getting them as gifts for militaristic CS to be used as disposable meat shields ..
     
  10. Matthew.

    Matthew. Deity

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    I'm just adding my opinion, like I said it was one 1 of 2 Civs where I thought was off enough to add a comment.

    1. I think we can at least agree that, minus this CS bonus, Greece overall is extremely lackluster. Hoplites I think are the worst of the spear UU's. Okay, a decent classical era horse, but it is still a classical horse. It just feels this Civ is rated artificially high. As I said earlier, if the CS bonus rating was dropped down, this Civs overall rating would go way down, and they'd be lucky to even reach T3, let alone T2.

    2. My point on the CS bonus was not necessarily that CS play shouldn't be rated that highly, but that Greece's perks towards it are not that great. Partly why I mentioned Sweden. I value the ability to gain CS's way higher than the ability to keep, because I never seem to have a problem maintaining the rep once I get it.

    Certainly it helps Greece maintain crazy high rep to prevent the possible scenario of another faction overtaking you, but it is kind of like... if that competition isn't there to begin with, does it matter if you have 150 rep or 350 rep?

    A lot of that is dependent on games and sample sizes though. Maybe I just get lucky in a lot of my games and I don't get a lot of competition over CS's in terms of that back and forth alliance trading.


    I love double cover promo's. The AI is so predictable, you can guess which unit they are going to attack. If you can bait enemy attacks onto high defense, fortified units, it wastes a lot of its potential.

    It isn't just for city and garrisons, but for later when you are eventually going to take hits from arty, air, naval, or just absorbing regular ranged attacks easier.

    The best way I could probably show why I love these promo's is to play as Zulu and get both double cover and their regular buffalo promo's. It is sad how it completely shuts down the tactical side of the AI (ok, so that was always easy to do, but even more than usual). The AI cannot move its melee around well enough to use them, and you shut down any range attacks as well, and it is powerless.

    Anyway that is getting a bit off the original topic. I don't think Caroleans are on the same level as the obvious UU game-changers, but I do think they are one of the best, if not the best unit on that warrior ~> infantry upgrade line. I really like upgraded Jaguars, but if you lose them you cannot replace them (or add more). Caroleans come at a time where you can supplement your army with as many as you want, and the ability to pick up march right away I think is pretty nifty, even if you don't go cover and instead go for blitz or more open/rough bonuses.
     
  11. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    With Alex, those early alliances you took out of the barb camp quests/returned workers go a lot further, and early snowballing is the best. He doesn't have any advantages to getting them over the Neutrals, but the total amount of advantage he is going to have by keeping them for much longer for the same amount of money, is huge. Game-long Cultural CS alliance is game changing.
     
  12. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams

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    I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. It's got me playing Civs I ignored in entirely new ways. The logic makes sense to me; even if you aren't trying for a Dom victory it's likely that you'll have to fight sooner or later, and besides, the ability to capture key wonders and resources makes ANY victory type easier. What I've really taken away from it is that although a few Civs are much stronger (Poland, Babylon) and some are demonstrably weaker (The Byzantines) most or the civs are pretty well balanced and just depend on your play style.
     
  13. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    An-yeong-haseyo Mr. Shadows!

    Welcome to the thread and the forum in general. :)
     
  14. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams

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    Thanks, I'm currently winning reliably at Emperor, and I'm close to getting my first win at Immortal. I'll be spending a fair amount of time in the strat forum at least until I crack Deity.
     
  15. GenuineRisk

    GenuineRisk Warlord

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    You could say that about pretty much every civ with a strong UA, not to mention that being able to heal in any CS at the friendly territory rate can be very useful for all styles of play.
     
  16. superresistant

    superresistant Chieftain

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    I am not sure I understand your criteria for this tier list but...
    Assyria win in few turns almost all the time rushing on Deity on small maps.
    3 Siege-Towers alone take down any capital (if there is space around to attack of course).
    Sometimes 2 Siege-Towers with some archers are enough.
    You actually only need to build 2 of them because you should have enough money to buy the 3rd.

    I tech straight to Siege-Tower, get about 3 of them with some archers and/or warriors, take the capital and that's it.
     
  17. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    Ok so let me reiterate that this list is for Standard sized maps


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  18. superresistant

    superresistant Chieftain

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    Alright I get it.
     
  19. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams

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    I'm in the process of rereading this thread because it has a lot of insight into the way different people play different civs. One thing I've been trying to reconcile is why Venice is rated so highly in the other thread whule being dead-last in this one, and now I think I know why. There's no question in my mind that Venice's limitations make them weaker then even the neutrals in the hands of a good player. The same is not true for a mediocre player- like myself. Venice takes a lot of the hard decisions out of the game. NWs are a snap because you only need one building. That means you no longer have to plan your early game around the NC- just build it as soon as you hit philosophy. You're no longer building settlers so you don't have to prioritize granaries vs. libraries vs. monuments and so forth. The extra trade routes also take an important decision out of the game. Venice has so many of them that they can ensure growth/production with internal routes while raking in cash (and diplomatic benefits) from external routes. All of this removes the possibility of doing something brilliant but it's also idiot-proof. With so many choices removed it's not hard to see what you need to do next with Venice. In my experience this makes it easier to get it right (for a mediocre player) and thus easier to win with then many (most) other civs. That's a medicore player. A good player knows how to squeeze the maximum benefit out of all the choices Venice doesn't get to make. This makes them definitively weaker then the other civs but, counter-intuitively "easier" to win with for a lot of people. This isn't meant to challenge your rating, it's just a thought on why the other tier list loves them and this list has them at the bottom of the pile.
     
  20. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    yeah with Venice you're basically playing an OCC game, which takes a lot of effort out, build order in expos, timing your NC and stuff like that
     

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