An Independent Quebec?

RenegadeXH

Chieftain
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Mar 4, 2002
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Ok, now i really hope that this thread doesn't get anybody heated, because i understand there are a lot of French Canadians who are members here. In fact my great grandfather was a French Canadian.

Well anyways, heres my question. What is everyones opinion on Quebec? Should it be allowed to become an independent nation? Dose it have the resources to remain a leading power on its own with out Canada? How would Canada fend with the loss of this province? How would America be affected? How would North American Trade be affected? All opinions are welcome :) .
 
I have always been of the opinion that if Quebec votes a majority in favor of independence through a referendum, Canada would compromise it's democratic integrity to force them to stay.

Obviously, it's not as simple as "we voted yes, so when do get it?". What would happen with all the English-speaking people in, say, Montreal, for instance?

I have been to Quebec many times. I have family living outside of Montreal. I like the French. I find it rather amusinbg that those people who dislike Quebecers the most, those who think they are just a huge pain in the ass, are the most adamant that they are an integral part of Canada and shouldn't get special priveledges and shouldn't be allowed to go.

My only real beef is that referendums are expensive, but other than that, I want to repeat: If Quebec votes for independence, then who are we to stop them? Democracy in action. It sucks when it doesn't go your way. Duh.

And I can't really blame the French for wanting to go. Yes, they are full Canadians who have all the same rights and freedoms as the rest of us, but let's say Montcalm beat Wolfe, and the British colonies were turned over to France, I'd still feel like my home was "occupied", even after all these years.

I have to give America credit: They took French and Spanish colonies, and successfully absorbed them into an "American" identity. I don't know why Canada never could.

EDIT: Actually, I think in large part, it's because Canada remained so connected to the British (i.e. being included in the wars) while America obviously didn't.
 
Why does Quebec want independence I thought just like the Union of Scotland and England the agreement guarantees freedom and non persecution from protestants and from the English speakers.

I met some Canadians in Cuba from Quebec (a bit of tongue twister there) who were positively weird. They were very unsocialble and generally didn't leave there parents for a minute. I met a English speaking Canadian (though from China) they were normal. Maybe its just that Quebecians are too unfriendly too remain apart of Canada.

Also, how would a independent Quebec effect France. Would Quebec join France's commonwealth (I'm not sure what its could but they have similar thing to Britain) or would they still remain a part of the British Commonwealth [yes, i understand its not called that anymore]. Would it increase France's tiny influence in the Americas or would Quebec simply ignore its cultural linguistical [I bet your impressed with my spelling] comrades. What kind of foreign policy would an independent Quebec follow?

I understand that Quebecians were on the most advent supporters for Canada's involvement in the First and Second World War. [Thanks for Quebec]. Is this true?
 
Originally posted by redtom
Why does Quebec want independence I thought just like the Union of Scotland and England the agreement guarantees freedom and non persecution from protestants and from the English speakers.

I understand that Quebecians were on the most advent supporters for Canada's involvement in the First and Second World War. [Thanks for Quebec]. Is this true?

Three comments, on this post and on the thread in general:

#1 - there is already a "Quebec independancy" thread going on this forum, isn't this a bit much?

#2 - Yeah, Quebec is very autonomous, more so than Scotland. But why do they want more? Because, as you will soon learn with Scotland, that's what nationalists do; they ask for more. (And in Quebec's case, I can see some reasons to give it to them; not quite so in Scotland, and I'm half Scot by descent)

#3 - I assume you mean "ardent," as in "I understand that Quebecians were the strongest supporters for Canada's involvement in the First and Second World War."

If that's what you meant, sorry you were misinformed. Quebecers in general are very isolationist, and Quebec was for the most part OPPOSED to participation in either "English" war, so much so that the rules for conscription were different for Quebecers as a way of buying them off so they wouldn't break up the country over the war effort(s). While indifference to Europe's fate was the majority view, however, there were still large numbers of francophone Canadians who served in either war; the legendary "Vandoo" regiment (e.g. Vignt douze or Royal 22nd Regiment, forgive my french spelling) is one notable example.

And Quebecer or Quebecois are perfectly acceptable usages; I'm from BC and prefer to be called British Columbian; people from even the most federalist provinces (e.g. Manitoba) long ago stopped worrying about calling Quebecers "Canadians from Quebec," it's just pointless.

R.III
 
Originally posted by redtom
I met some Canadians in Cuba from Quebec (a bit of tongue twister there) who were positively weird. They were very unsocialble and generally didn't leave there parents for a minute. I met a English speaking Canadian (though from China) they were normal. Maybe its just that Quebecians are too unfriendly too remain apart of Canada.

It's hard to keep a conversation in english when you speak french for a common quebecer... but there are unsociable people everywhere maybe you were not lucky :)
 
Pesrsonally, I think Quebec has too many politcal implications.

First, It would subdivide the Reast of mainland Canda from Atlantic Canda.

Second: The way they're going about this is idiotic. Esentially, they beg the government to pay them to separate.

Third: The US wouldn't recognize them without Candian support, unless it was a perfect referendum, which probalby aint gonna happen.

fourth: Nobady would trade with them. They would be desparate for money, so prices for Quebecois goods would be higher. Nobody would trade with tthem, the economy would colapse.

Fifth: They dont have anybody to lead them.p The party quebecois has no real leader anymore, and has almost dropped off the political stage, execpt for "This Hour has 22 minutes", and "Royal Candian Air Farce".

Sixth: They have no real goal, except for soverienty. If they got it, they would probably never no what to do next.

Seventh: ALot of Quebecois workers are English. They'de probably leave Quebec if it separated. So the work force would colapse.


Thats all I can think of right now, I'll be back though.
 
First, It would subdivide the Reast of mainland Canda from Atlantic Canda.
That's not actually a problem for us :D

Second: The way they're going about this is idiotic. Esentially, they beg the government to pay them to separate.
What do you mean? I'm not paid because I want to secede! :confused:

Third: The US wouldn't recognize them without Candian support, unless it was a perfect referendum, which probalby aint gonna happen.
If it is more than 50% they will... Majority is the key in democracy and USA protect democracy...

fourth: Nobady would trade with them. They would be desparate for money, so prices for Quebecois goods would be higher. Nobody would trade with tthem, the economy would colapse.
Nobody will trade with us? Where did you find these thing... We're not Cuba lol :D

Fifth: They dont have anybody to lead them.p The party quebecois has no real leader anymore, and has almost dropped off the political stage, execpt for "This Hour has 22 minutes", and "Royal Candian Air Farce".
Leaders come with time... There are a lot of countries that lack of real leaders but they are doing great anyway... "This Hour has 22 minutes", and "Royal Candian Air Farce": What?! I don't understand what you mean...

Sixth: They have no real goal, except for soverienty. If they got it, they would probably never no what to do next.
LOL, we'll just do nothing unless there is something that need to be changed ;)

Seventh: ALot of Quebecois workers are English. They'de probably leave Quebec if it separated. So the work force would colapse.
Oh well, if they wish to leave so unemployed persons (something like 10% of the working force) will find a job :)

Thats all I can think of right now, I'll be back though.
And I'll be there :crazyeye:
 
First off, to inforrm my fellow Québécois Frosti that This Hours has 22 minutes and Royal Canadian Air Farce are Canadian humor shows. I believe the first were behind that famous petition to get a referendum to force Stockwell Day, should he be elected, to change his name to Doris Day, based on his promise to have a referendum if a petition of over 100 000 names was handed to the govt for anything.

Last I checked they had far more than their 100 000 requirement. Just too bad Day didn't get elected >=).

Anyway, back on track, to answer your questions in turn

"Well anyways, heres my question. What is everyones opinion on Quebec?"

If you mean the matter of Québec's independance, absolute "who cares"ism. It is about the opinion of most of the province of Québec, which explains why the Parti Québécois is being hit so hard in the partial elections to replace resigning representatives). They still can't get off their high horse about making Québec independant, and the most of the rest of us are just plain getting bored of hearing about it once every two weeks.

Down with Landry! Bring back Bouchard! He knew how to let that idea not be mentioned too much.

"Should it be allowed to become an independent nation?"

If a majority of the population vote in support of the notion, then the Canadian government should negociate with them on finding appropriate terms for separation. While it is not stated anywhere that provinces are allowed to leave the federation, it would be unreasonable to try to hold on - and against the idea of democracy. If a majority of inhabitants from a territorial entity part of a larger one no longer wishes to be part of the larger one, then trying to ignore their wish and force them to stay in is the kind of thing Milosevic and the like would be known for (of course they actually went and used violence).

"Dose it have the resources to remain a leading power on its own with out Canada?"

Perhaps not a leading power ; but an independant Québec could probably make-do not too badly. There would have to be changes, of course, and certain of them would be hurtful, but Québec isn't exactly a resource-poor province.

"How would Canada fend with the loss of this province?"

Aside from the already mentioned breach between the atlantic provinces and the mainland Canada, it probably wouldn't affect them so much ; especially if a reasonable form of economical partnership was developed, something which the very powerful Ontario is almost certain to push for, given their economical interest in trade with Québec.

"How would America be affected?"

America proper would be little affected, unless either side pushed it down from political niceties into open civil war. How America is affected is really up to Canada, though - if they play fair in the negociations and try to keep things stable in North America, there would be no realy effect on the US of A. On the other hand, if they play dirty, the effect may hardly be as nice.

"How would North American Trade be affected?"

It depend on a number of factor, especially how the split is made. If it includes guarantees for trade without border import rates wars, it probably would affect little. This would be especially true if America quickly and efficiently negociated including Québec in the major trade agreements of North America. Again, all this is dependant on how Canada and the US choses to play their cards.

With Jean Chrétien as Prime Minister, I wouldn't be too optimist about it.

"Obviously, it's not as simple as "we voted yes, so when do get it?". What would happen with all the English-speaking people in, say, Montreal, for instance? "

They would be allowed to do as they please. I'd say they'd still be allowed to learn their language in school (as first language), and since everyone learns it and it is the "world language" at present, well, there's no real problem of them no longer being part. Of course should they wish to leave, they would be allowed too, but I would be extremely surprised if things becamse all that worse for the English Québecers than they are now - and they aren't bad, in general opinion.

The only people complaining about the situation fo the english québecers are those who look in Ontario and are jealous that they can't control nearly everything there as the english people do there. Of course they don't realize that they are far better off than the French in Ontario and Acadia, but heh. Imbeciles are everywhere.

"I met some Canadians in Cuba from Quebec (a bit of tongue twister there) who were positively weird. They were very unsocialble and generally didn't leave there parents for a minute. I met a English speaking Canadian (though from China) they were normal. Maybe its just that Quebecians are too unfriendly too remain apart of Canada. "

WTH? Maybe it has to do with them not speaking english, especially if they were kids? As for not leving their parents, well, *shrugs* It happens. Not everyone is a social animal - there are people like that in every society in the world.

Too unfriendly to remain a part of Canada? That sounds like an open insult to all Québecers out here...Frankly, if you base your opionions of Québec on one little encounter with Québecers, that's rather pathetic.

"What kind of foreign policy would an independent Quebec follow? "

Closer ties with France are a given. However, while we might leave the Commonwealth, we certainly wouldn't sever all ties with it, and would of course be friendly to our massive southern Neighbor we all know and love. We'd also probably try to maintain strong economic ties with the rest of Canada.

"I understand that Quebecians were on the most advent supporters for Canada's involvement in the First and Second World War. [Thanks for Quebec]. Is this true?"

Involvement in the war, not really - they didn't really go out to protest against it, but they didn't go out to support it. They just weren'T really interested either way - though not to the US of A point of not interested. What they did get out to protest against in both case was conscription. Québec as a whole did not want to go out there to let themselves be butchered as Cannon fodder in a british war. (as both were seen ; there wasn't all that much love for France until Charles de Gaule shot off his famous comment, given that they had abandoned us way back).
 
For the record, while I would visit an independent Quebec as often as I could and wish you guys all the best, on a straight financial level, Ontario has zero interest in trading with an independent Quebec, or a Canadian Quebec. Almost all Ontario trade (90%) is now north-south, and most of our trade with Quebec consists of your construction workers working in our province while Quebec laws effectively ban our construction workers from working on Quebec jobsites.

Hence Mike Harris' infamous "Fairness is a Two-Way Street Act," which, if successful, will mean that the only remaining trade of significance other than billions in transfer payments will be Johnny Olsen crossing the river from his home in Nepean to drink underage in the fine, fine bars of Hull and bring home a cold beer from the depanneur.
 
Originally posted by Oda Nobunaga
"How would America be affected?"

America proper would be little affected, unless either side pushed it down from political niceties into open civil war. How America is affected is really up to Canada, though - if they play fair in the negociations and try to keep things stable in North America, there would be no realy effect on the US of A. On the other hand, if they play dirty, the effect may hardly be as nice.

Ah, but with Quebec independent, might not the United States seek to "integrate" English speaking Canada as states 51 through 54? After all, through much of its early history, the U.S. has always coveted its northern neighbor.
 
When it comes to Quebec, I always think of Brendan Behan's quote to the effect that: "Montreal is the only city in the world where a good French accent is not considered a social asset"
 
If Quebec succeeded in gaining independence, I doubt that trade with the United States would suffer. The New England area of the U.S. buys a lot of power from Quebecs hydro plants, and that wouldn't change. I can't imagine Quebec being shut out of NAFTA. However, Quebec would very quickly be drawn into the US economic orbit. It would be a small economy sitting right next to the world's biggest. As part of Canada, Quebec has some clout. On it's own, it would have precious little.

I also think that a united Canada would not long survive the loss of Quebec. I could see Canada probably fracturing, with Ontario possibly remaining an independent nation, but with the rest of Canada eventually joining the United States.
 
I don't think so.Canadians are proud of not being american,more peaceful,not imperialists supporting some dictatorships in the 3rd world,socialists,bound with the mother country etc....
As i said in other threads about Quebec,i think it's bad that many Quebecers wanna secede.While they focus on the secession,they don't focus on other issues(isn't it benefitial for the govt?).

Y do they wanna secede?It's said that Anglos fought n expelled Quebecers n called Quebecers "white negers" n broadcast a "Speak white,speak english"propaganda.It's said that Brits considered all the people not speakin english(even whites) as inferior.They raised taxes on Quebecers for the Canada Pacific(railroads) n settled Anglos in the West.After the american independance,loyalists settled in New-Brunswick n Nova-Scotia n expelled Acadians.They settled in Newfoundland too.
But what now?Do 24 million english-speaking canadians c Quebecers as second-class citizens?
40% of the Canadians are of British descent,27% of french descent,6%of german descent,14%of other euro.descent,10%asian,3%Amerindians.Yet,20% only speak french.It means that even if all the immigrants who ever entered Canada were taught english,more than1/4 of the French-speakers would've let down french for english.
Is there still a risk of assimilation?In the 80's,english was forbidden in Quebec,which upset english-speakers of course.
 
Originally posted by Switch625
If Quebec succeeded in gaining independence, I doubt that trade with the United States would suffer. The New England area of the U.S. buys a lot of power from Quebec's hydro plants, and that wouldn't change. I can't imagine Quebec being shut out of NAFTA. However, Quebec would very quickly be drawn into the US economic orbit. It would be a small economy sitting right next to the world's biggest. As part of Canada, Quebec has some clout. On it's own, it would have precious little.

I also think that a united Canada would not long survive the loss of Quebec. I could see Canada probably fracturing, with Ontario possibly remaining an independent nation, but with the rest of Canada eventually joining the United States.

Out of all the posts here I agree with this the most.

For comparison I consider what happened with the former
British Caribbean islands left after 1945. When Britain decided it was no longer interested in maintaining colonial rule; the islands had the opportunity of forming an english speaking caribbean confederation; but the smaller islands did not want to be
dominated by the large islands so a large number of micro
states were created. The US regards the caribbean as its backyard and effectively controls them all (remember the
invasion of Grenada). There are a lot of people pretending to
be presidents and cabinet ministers etc in these micro states.
But in my view; their people would be much better off if they were actually part of the US and could therefore travel in the US and vote for US congressman, senator and president.

In my view if Quebec left Canada, the same thing would happen to Canada. As Canada is bigger; it might take 50 years rather than 20 years. Ultimately the Canadian provinces would be
faced with a hard choice of (a) maintaining minimal independence for local issues (e.g. gun control and liquor laws) but being otherwise entirely subject to US companies and US foreign policy and having no democratic input to US foreign policy at all or (b) seek admittance as American states to secure US voting rights. This would apply equally to Quebec and the English speaking parts of Canada.

And by the way, I think that the US would be much less
sympathetic to French speakers than Canada is.
 
They'd need to negociate a nice trade deal with Québec t be sure they can get everything through to Canada ;)

As for the why some people in Québec (I personally don't give a damn either way), here are a few excerpts of a canadian newspaper I caught sight of at work (The Globe and Mail). I'm trying to remember them, so they may not be 100% accurate, but they are in the general feeling.

Title along the line of "Québec is no longer the chimney of the nation."

"Québec has lost another sign of its uniqueness, no longer being the part of the nation with the highest rate of smokers"
"While smokign was frowned upon in north america, Gallic insouciance allowed it to continue unhindered in Québec"
"The very recent* shift against smoking in Québec is like an earthquake..."

*actually quite a few years old - laws against smoking in public building were voted back in the nineties, not in the last two years as this article seems to say. And how strange I noticed no earthquake...

The article went on, filled with dripping sarcasm against Québec. I'm sorry, but when a major canadian newspaper has a PAGE ONE article along those line, I sure as heck can understand why some Québecers wants to be apart from Canada. Heck, reading it quite nearly tipped me out of neutrality.
 
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